Attack on Titan 4x26 REACTION!

Its worth mentioning that the yeagerists were killing their own to begin with (They literally were glad when they thought Zeke killed levi in that blast). Eren literally killed his own people when he activated the rumbling. The scouts are doing what the others are doing. and they are the last to do it.

M.N.

Traitors in the end.

TrixieTurner

I think it’s also important to remember the OG scouts were all practically wiped out in the battle to get tot hem basement. All those who joined the scouts after knowing about the reality of this world was to defend the island. While those in the alliance and OG scout squad was to bring peace and protect humanity. In essence, protecting humanity from danger has always been their drive

Ibinhio

That last scene with Connie is one of the most heart breaking scenes in the whole series, in my opinion

Alejandro polar

But here the issue is stopping Eren too soon means signing the death sentence of the whole island. The outcome is not the same as killing the dudes in S3. That's why some of us are more conflicted this time. And except the ones who secretly plotted with spinal wine for months, many jeagerists are just people who got stuck in a last minute situation with the fear to be destroyed literally he next day (the world fleet is here remember) if Eren is stopped. I don't think some viewers realize all of this happens in like less than 3 days. Imagine hearing Eren in your mind the wednesday and having to take a decision about the survival of your country before friday ? I totally don't think the jeagerist are right but I don't think they deserve death and that we should be happy about it. The alliance HAD to do it, it's true but it still stucks to watch it

Luna lanes

Sean Carroll@ They haven't yet bro. Delete the comment.

Ivan Haji

Effi@ Ok, so according to your logic a mother would choose someone who she doesn't know on the other side of the world, that may be a bigot over her baby.

Ivan Haji

I understand your points and I agree that if they actually could have developed diplomatic relations with other coutries but Eren just didn't want to, and did his own thing for supremacy or whatever. I would also wholly condemn his actions. However I think the whole point is that they couldn't develop those peaceful relationships in the four years preceding the meeting in Liberio, thereafter they would probably only have a few months tops before the participating nations began their attack on Paradis. And if they couldn't in 4 years, they wouldn't be able to in 4 months. (tiny spoilers for last episode of part 2) In the last episode of final season part 2, you can see Eren, Hange & scouts visit another country but find out that everyone is racist against Eldians and when they go to that summit? court? (don't remember what is is) the rhetoric is that maybe the Elidians outside the walls could be "forgiven" for their ancestors actions. But not those on the island because they are devils who deserve to be exterminated. Everyone, every leader at least, is against the idea of negotiating with Paradis' devils. I also agree and do not think that Paradis should not be expected to be able to fix Ymir's curse, but i'm not sure why you brought up that point since I don't think Eren expected anyone to do so either ? Again I don't think Eren was against any other plan if it had reasonable chances of success, he asks what else can he do, for someone to convince him otherwise. Plus you can't seriously tell me me it's unreasonable to expect your military to come up with a plan to protect your country. That's the main goal of a military's existence. But I'm not faulting them, I don't think Eren is either. They just couldn't come up with a workable plan based on the poor circumstances. It was either Eren's actions or the annihilation of Paradis. At least I think that what the story was trying to show us, if that's not the situtation they were in I would actually like the show less.

Grey Cat

Completely irrelevant to what im saying, i'm saying that it is not a FACT, as you have stated multiple times, that '99.9%' of the world agrees with you. It is your own belief, you can say you think it to be true, but it is not fact and its not right to claim something is fact when its not. And yes to call it a fact, which is what I'm arguing you are wrong in doing here and NOT that a mother would choose a bigot over her baby (really??) it does need to be known and proven.

Effi

I mean earth is being wiped out. Only those who are willing to come together, and negotiate will prevail. Those who don't will die. Be it the world, jaegerist, or even the scout Marley alliance. It's just like lady Hiziru said, "the world will only shrink." In my mind it's the metaphorical strength that the alliance brings to the table that has the potential to beat Eren. If the jaegarist's win the same history will just continue.

Samuel Wallace

Eff@ It doesn't need to be "legit known or proven" that human beings will choose their loved ones over those that hate them/don't know them. It's simply common sense.

Ivan Haji

Effi@ When you find me a mother who would choose a to save bigot that wants her kill her, over he new born baby then I will agree with you.

Ivan Haji

No..a fact is something legit *known*or proven to be true. Also noone said the majority would choose that. I just think it's best not to speak on the behalf of the entire population of the whole world but that's just me. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree here.

Effi

Effi@ No it definitely is a fact. I understand everything you say. But I understand and have witnessed human desperation, coming from a worn torn region myself. People will do anything to protect their loved ones. To say that majority of people in the world would choose people who they don’t know, many of which hate them over their children, parents, & loved ones is a lie.

Ivan Haji

He is just frustrated by the idea to fight their own people. I was the same when I first read this part but then when you take time to think more, you understand they had no other choice if they want to follow their moral

Luna lanes

Sean they haven't seen it

Effi

Please delete it for now and rewrite it once we are sure they saw the last episode 👍

Luna lanes

I hope carlie made this comment before the finale because the finale episode makes it clear that eren is in love with her and is doing all of this to keep her safe

Sean Carroll

Yeah I'm a bit confused 😕 wondering if he feels they should be helping Eren or do nothing?

Effi

🙌

Effi

I'm pretty sure thats not a fact. You need to understand people can have very different core beliefs, values, moral limits, emotional reactions, empathy levels and so on. There are plenty of people who would feel and act very differently than you.

Effi

Before the attack on Liberio, Paradis was operating under the assumption that they could establish diplomatic relations with other nations and use the Rumbling as a defensive weapon in case they were invaded. Hizuru would trade with them and the volunteers would help develop the island economically and militarily, hoping to establish trade with other countries as well. They would eventually be strong enough to defend themselves without the use of Titans. This plan is obviously not perfect. It hinges on establishing peaceful relations with other countries who may or may not be open to the idea, and it definitely doesn't work towards ending the curse of Ymir. However, I question why people expect Paradis to come up with a plan that addresses that second point. Honestly, given their position, I believe this plan is the most sensible real-world solution to the island's situation. Again, it's hard to say what would've happened, but it was unreasonable of Eren to expect the military to come up with a plan that was guaranteed to protect the island and would simultaneously address the Titan curse. Steps would have to be taken one at a time, and there'd be gambles, but Eren didn't want to hear it. Mostly because he had a completely different goal in mind; he saw a future that only he was capable of reaching, and nothing was going to convince him otherwise.

Hive

this was supposed to be a comment under episode 27

Martina

I mean. they were already slaughtering their own people in season 3. those soldiers they killed also mostly did nothing wrong. unlike these ones that are comitting a genocide. but yes, I can see where you're coming from

Martina

That uncomfortable feeling you are having is the point, Ange. I don't know what other plan you expect them to have. They have to get to the boat. The people guarding the boat happen to be their friends who want to let Eren destroy thr rest of the world. It's a lose lose situation considering the circumstances. They tried to get away without killing anyone and when thay fails the question Isayama is trying to pose: Would you kill your friends to protect the majority? The plan being good or bad is irrelevant. The point is thr question being posed.

D

Not sure what Ange wants from the Scouts here. Remember, they are forced into this by Eren and thr Jeagerists.

D

@Asian It gets rid of the hate of one group by completely eliminating the group, which in it of itself is an act of hate. Leaving behind hate is not getting rid of it through murder, that’s a dumb conclusion. I’ve already addressed the absurdity of that thinking in my original comment. That’s like saying when Mr Braus said we had to leave the forest, he should have killed Gabi because he’d be getting rid of her hate. That would be a contradiction because he’d only be creating more, but within himself. Hate isn’t justified just because it’s your own. This is one of the central theses of season 4.

bruhmingo

Shemar@ Exactly brother. As you said, nobody will sacrifice their loved ones for their same people for their enemies. And yes, maybe Eren is wrong. But he is more on the right than the allies that refuse to leave him & his friends alone, by far. Just because he has the bigger gun, doesn't mean he's the more evil man.

Ivan Haji

Spot on brother, these people keep saying Eren is wrong but can't provide a solution. They always go silent after they are asked this question. Leads me to believe they don't understand the story at all. They are just quick to judge because "Eren is killing too many people"... They judge morality by the number people a person kills. 1 life is just as important as 2 or more. Killing 10 people isn't worse than killing 1; they are equally WRONG. It's all about perspective. Eren is doing this to protect his people, and the alliance is doing their activities to protect the world knowing that they are sacrificing their island.... But it's funny because if these people commenting were the Eldians and knew that at any point Marley + other countries could invade and kill them and their loved ones they would and without a doubt side with Eren. It's literally kill or be killed. People are looking at it from an outside perspective and not as an Eldian on Paradis Island. People are quick to side against Eren and forgetting that from Season 1 to 3 they sympathized and rooted for Eren. They are disloyal and dishonest. They are lying to themselves. NOBODY ON THIS EARTH WILL SACRIFICE THE LIVES OF THEIR LOVED ONES TO SAVE THEIR ENEMIES. That's absurdity and people should stop lying to themselves..... Again, it's all perspective. As you said, "Eren kills because he had no other option to ensure his people's survival, Marley & the world want to kill because of bigotry & hatred".. This couldn't be more true. Spot on.

Shemar

but wouldn't going along with Eren's plan also "get rid of the hate from the past"??

iu

99% of people would not choose others over everyone they love. That’s a fact. No point even trying to argue.

Ivan Haji

This is such a good point. Never really considered that point of view.

Carlie & Ange

I think ignorance is one of the main factor jeagerists are so popular in Paradis. Most people have never seen the outside world or met someone outside. I understand why they don't feel compassion in this situation because all of this is abstract to them. They barely know how big is the world, never saw a picture of it, what people look like etc. All they know is "the outside wants to kill us". (it was the same with Marley. they never met Paradis people). I don't think they picture well the scale. I don't think the population is cruel. they are full of ignorance and despair. ignorance is definitly the thing to fight against. The scout went outside and it shows. Like Hange said "We, we can't act like ignorant demons anymore"

Luna lanes

I don't think they have no problem killing civilians (except radicals like Floch). I think for many it's kinda a denial. They go with the flow because they want to survive so their brains don't want to think too much of the innocents because no one like guilt. They also never met people outside, never seen pictures of the outside world. They can't picture the size of the world and the number of people who will die like we can with our knowledge and it helps to be detached

Luna lanes

So if mikasa didnt save the engineers how would they service the plane so they could fly?

ed

You have zero basis to say what most people would do in that scenario. You’re speaking only for yourself. “99.9% of people would…” is a completely bogus assumption lol.

Not Amused

Hi Carlie. Here’s a few spoiler free things I will mention regarding Eren & Mikasa. 1. Eren was the 1st to blush out of the 2. Happened when Eren wrapped the scarf around Mikasa. 2. When the government threatened to dissect Mikasa, Eren panicked, & completely lost it. He pled guilty just to save her. 3. In season 4, even though Zeke was talking directly to him, Eren was completely zoned out looking at younger Mikasa after his younger self wrapped the scarf around her. 4. She’s like half the reason he’a committing genocide, & killed 2 grown men as a child 😂. 5. He was prepared to throw fists with a titan to save her at the end of Season 2. 6. Isiyama said when he draws Mikasa from Eren’s point of view, he draws her to look more “beautiful” than she really is.

Ivan Haji

As I said. The number of people doesn’t make something moral or immoral. Many other factors play into it. I never claimed they were guilty though. Sadly when governments starts wars, innocents pay the price. The 2000 year thing should not even be mentioned here. The people of Paradis are innocent of all that. If you’re going to say Eren is wrong, them what solution do you have?

Ivan Haji

"Ideals supersede practicality because without ideals there is no purpose to living" this sums up all of Armin's actions (especially in season 4) perfectly imo

Yasiru Jayasinghe

@Yasira Jayasinghe I’m not going to say anything to avoid spoilers. But this is far from the truth and a assumption. The world coming down on Paradis is a guarantee though.

Ivan Haji

Zyrus@ You’re 100% right.

Ivan Haji

Well spoken! 👍☮️

MasterOfPuppets

If the entire world was wiped out, the Yeagerists and those that opposed them in the island would've probably killed each other way before the world would've had the chance to destroy the island by themselves. Eren's plan also does not guarantee anything. "Sure things... Certainties... no nation can claim to have them" : words spoken in the show

Yasiru Jayasinghe

In my opinion, not rooting for the scouts because they had to resort to killing their own people is almost equivalent to only rooting for the winning side no matter their intentions. The jaegerist’s plan is evil, simple as. The actions against the eldian people are evil, simple as. An evil solution is never the answer as it will only breed retaliation. Even if eren’s plan succeeds, human nature remains the same and conflict will continue only on a smaller scale. Just because the scouts have been dealt a bad hand doesn’t reduce them to being in the wrong. The essence of season 4 has been that hatred breeds more hatred, and even if there seems to be no way out of the cycle, we MUST keep trying to leave the forest. Leaving the forest is not pacifism, it is to move forward from the hate of the past. The scouts trying to save a world that hates them is how they are leaving the forest, they are putting the hate behind them. This is all in spite of the odds. Ideals supersede practicality because without ideals there is no purpose to living. Going along with the jagerist plan because there’s “no other way” is equivalent to chasing a hollow dream, there’s no meaningfulness to it because you’d only be contributing to something worse. The scouts are in effect loving their enemies and chasing what is right in spite of any odds because that’s the moral thing to do. It’s a shitty situation all around, but there’s definitely not a lack of discernment.

bruhmingo

Yep Based Ange thats the point of the show No one is a hero and no one is a good guy. A very human story.

Frozenbozo

That’s the most cringe thing I’ve heard an aot fan say

bruhmingo

I stop choosing side the moment I know that it was Eren that influence his father to do what he do. At this point everyone have their own agenda, even Scouts, they ain't try to stop rumbling, they just want save Eren, like Eren try save them, like Reiner & Annie only want save their family, like how Gabbi want to save Falco, at that point they don't care and think about humanity in general anymore, the time not in their side and they all tired af, so I'm not even surprise that their plan is sucks.

taengsicle unbreakable

Based and yaeger-pilled

Benjamin

Unfortunately we cant because on Patreon, we use the Youtube embed system, so its technically just a link you get here on Patreon. Copyright is super frustrating!

Carlie & Ange

Reiner and Annie weren't doing it just to protect Marley, they were convinced that the world was under threat. It's no different now, the scouts see that Eren is a threat to the world and can't sit by and let it happen. Both sets thought their actions were for the greater good.

Ashley

Yea I get that! Personally, this is why I never really ‘shipped’ Mikasa and Eren, except for that one time at the end of season 2 (please don’t come for me Mikasa and Eren shippers 😂). I wasn’t really trying to say that Jean deserves Mikasa because he’s nice, but Mikasa deserves someone who will love her, like Jean would. However, just like I don’t ship Eren and Mikasa because Eren seems to have no interest in her, I also don’t ship Jean and Mikasa because she has no interest in Jean 🤷🏼‍♀️ -C

Carlie & Ange

And despite what people will say, destroying the military bases only isn't a solution. Eren will only have the founder for another few years at best. It takes longer to rebuild a military and the Island doesn't have the resources to police the world at that point. What happens after he's gone?

Zyrus

ANGE IS BASEDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Shemar

the number of ppl isnt greater. its many upon many times greater, thousands of times. of what? pure innocent people. eren is killing those couple hundred who probably deserve it. but hes taking with them the other 99% of people there who are completely & utterly innocent, who have nothing to do with anything Eldia started. & the hatred which was stemmed from what? right. eldia ruling over the world for 2000 years killing & enslaving everyone else. your mental gymnastics doesnt work here & real world examples historically are against you as well. everyones entitled to their opinions. eren is not wrong for doing what he did, he was a slave & never had free will after all

Cloudburst

If it was the only way to save your daughter's, wives & father's (which in the AOT universe it is), then yes, 99.9% of people would.

Ivan Haji

I find it amusing that you assume that we would all just go along with his plan if we lived on paradise. That's a downright fallacy.

Bryonna Yates

Because personally, I'm not agreeing or rooting for any one side. I just have my characters I like Eren, Levi, Armin, Mikasa, Reiner, etc. I understand all their actions, they are "justified" in the sense that it makes sense why they believe what they believe and want to do what they want to do, but I don't necessarily think any of it is morally good. I'm just watching and seeing how the story unravels, going with the flow essentially and not pressuring myself to side with any side or plan.

Sam

I find it amusing that everyone talking about Eren's "barbaric plan" wouldn't hesitate to support him had they, their families, & their friends been people living in Paradis Island. That and the fact that they can't give an alterative solution that will work. The best they can give is a "test rumbling" which will only delay the Islands destruction by a few years. I mean that with the greatest respect.

Ivan Haji

And also, taking out 1 for the many wasn't my logic. Killing one old farmer to save 10 podophiles isn't moral. Just because the number of people is greater, doesn't mean the decision is more moral. What matters is intentions, & reasons. Eren kills because he had no other option to ensure his people's survival, Marley & the world want to kill because of bigotry & hatred.

Ivan Haji

I think the show's intention isn't to say any plan or people are bad, but everything is neutral. I think the show is trying to just present the reality of the situation, show why these characters think what they think, and allow viewers to observe how everything unravels.

Sam

1. Be respectful. 2. The difference is the Eren didn't start the war, he was forced into it to protect his loved ones. Nazi Germany started the war, & the alliance was forced into it to protect their loved ones. 3. The difference here is that Germany, & Marley (& other nations in AOT) kill/Killed because they wanted to. (They desired to wipe out Eldians/Jews etc) The Allies/Eren kill/killed because they had to. (no peaceful way to solve the problem). Understand the difference.

Ivan Haji

exactly, take out 1 for the many. so why doesnt that logic apply to your god eren & his people. they are the 1 & the people hes killing are the many, hes nazi germany. no matter which way you look at it, the eldians were an oppressive nation from founding & needed to be killed off in this fiction world

Cloudburst

I think the key difference between the Scouts in S1 compared to the Jaegerists, is that the Jaegerists have no issue with it, but the Scouts obviously don't want to kill civilians (even if they feel it must be done). This isn't to say that one side or the other is morally acceptable, but there is a clear difference in approach. I do think, however, that this is just two sides of the same coin.

Gabriel Barott

Refusing to participate in war is not "good". Waiting for Nazi Germany to mass murder the world was probably the most evil thing the Allies could have done. Bombing thousands of German civilians into oblivion along with the military was the lesser evil.

Ivan Haji

I completely agree with you Ange - the whole point of the show is to constantly have the viewers question the people they are rooting for. There are no good guys. If you participate in the war you have to stain your hands with blood. The only way someone can be a good person is to refuse to participate and accept the consequences.

Mihai Sarbu

Ivan Haji

Ange when you said "IDK what to do!", my advice would be to just give up on rooting for one side over the other. TBH I gave up on rooting for a side probably episode 1 of season 4 aha

Q

I think that's the point. This story is the literally the King of gray area. This and episode 27 really show that. They are filled with epic moments that in the same breath are tragic to us viewers. We see Mikasa and everyone being bad ass but then at the same time they are being bad ass against people that were once their comrades. That's one the reasons why its so difficult to root for a side. Both sides also have understandable reasons for why they are doing what they're doing.

Q

BASED Ange

Muz

armin cant transform. his transformation is equivalent to a nuke going off he would not only kill connie but destroy the flying boat and possibly every one else in the port

Miki

Go Ange Go ! Go Ange Go ! Tell them ! #AngeGang I also have written in my notebook that "Ange is the best" 👍 (Love for Carlie too though of course)

Grey Cat

What was the military's plan ? From my understanding Eren attacked Liberio because all of the world's leader were meeting up to plan an attack on Paradis (Willy Tybur's speech). The military couldn't find any plan to peacefully resolve the issue and Eren had to resort to killing the world leaders while they were grouped up and Armin destroyed the port to delay Marley's attack.. This is I think confirmed after the attack, while Eren is in the holding cell and talking (screaming) to Hange. He asks her what else could he have done, what choice did he have, to save Paradis. She had no had answer for him, i.e. the military had no answer.

Grey Cat

That’s why I made up my mind very early on in season 4. I understood what was about to happen since episode 8 with Sasha dying. There is no “cheering” in season 4. I simply just watch how things play out. The situation and circumstances are already so intriguing that I don’t find the need to cheer for anyone. When it comes to the scouts, it was essentially necessary but what’s important is it’s what was necessary according to their objective, which is to save humanity. The fact of the matter is the eldians are an incredibly small slice of humanity. So in their view, nothing is more important than that flying boat. As long as everyone’s actions make sense according to their goal, I don’t really have an issue with it as long as everyone understands the consequences. When you really think about it, let’s look at Reiner’s plan to take Eren in season 2 episode 6. He actually thought Eren would just come with him without a fight. Reiner was suffering from Marco’s death. The scouts are suffering from their lack of time (because of Eren’s speed) and their decision to choose humanity over their people. Reiner by that time was struggling with not knowing if infiltrating the walls was right or if they should’ve just gone back to Marley, as seen when Reiner admitted to Eren that Annie and Bert wanted to go back by Reiner caused them to push forward. The scouts currently don’t know if they’re making the right choice, as seen through Connie’s cry. It parallels perfectly. These paralleling factors are causing both sides to act irrationally, but within the confines of wanting to complete their goal.

Musab imran

me too lol. Unironically, Eren saying “There's no better salvation than never having to be born into this world” resonated with me the most 😂

laras

If Isayama wanted us to side with the scouts/alliance, he would easily write a perfect plan without them needing to kill their friends, for example: floch found out too late after they were gone, daz and samuel did not hear what floch said, only small number of jaegerists there and only Annie plus Reiner wiped them out, and many more possibilities. But Isayama wrote it like this, so people sided with the any fraction can introspect about their justification and moral judgement. Also, war is terrible

laras

The scouts are 100 percent idiots here for sure.

Zyrus

100% agreed. On point!

MasterOfPuppets

This is the most passionate I've seen Ange get in a discussion LOL I mostly agree though, everyone's plan does suck. I think the intent behind the writing here is not for any single plan to have the inherently better outcome. I think while the characters will try to justify what they do, it will never appear justified to us. We will likely always have the luxury of never being placed in a position like this, so its easy for us to deem certain actions from the characters as unnecessary, extreme, self righteous, naïve, etc. All it will ever come down to, is what you personally want and think is best. However, due to the nature of AoT, you'll probably always be dissatisfied to some extent.

Gabriel Barott

Hi really love the content you are doing! I Just wanted to know if its possible to edit the video we have here on Patreon so that we could see and hear all of the episode. I know on youtube theirs copŷright for that, but as far as my knowledge go for Patreon, i think their is no such things! Thanks a lot both of you :D

Samuel Martel

Neither did the Scouts during S1. Don't even /try/ that high ground horse here.

Zyrus

Sai, yeah that's what I love about it too :)

Effi

Let's think about this : the question is not deciding which plan is better. There is no good solution for anyone in this situation. Hange & the scouts, Magath & the Marleyans/Eldians from Liberio, they have no choice but to go on with this sucky plan. And I think even them know it's a sucky plan. There's just no good solution, that's it. My question would rather be : Who would you choose to rule after this whole situation has settled ? Who would make the best decisions and have the most respect for everyone, out of all the characters ? Who would do everything to avoid another sucky situation like this happen again ? Like Ange said, it's a matter of intentions. For me, this is the criteria that helps us to choose who to cheer for, who would make sure that this never happens again.

Lionel Bleus

Effi, yeah, if you look at it from the scouts' perspective, I can see why they wouldn't be able to justify the massacre. The fact that we are arguing about which party to side with by justifying their actions, though some are bad, tells us how intricately the characters are written in this story. Every char has their own VALID reasons for the actions they took or are aging to take. That's one of the reasons why I just love watching people react to this show. It brings out so many different perspectives about various things from all of us.

Sai Pavan

CastSenpai, thanks for your inputs. Now, that you mention it, it never occurred to me that things have come this far partly due to the govt of the paradise island. If the kings of the walls hadn't stolen their people's memories, defended their ppl from titan attacks and built relationships with neighboring countries things could've been different.

Sai Pavan

I don’t think even the scouts, especially Hange, had any problem with letting their civilians die during the Eren vs Annie fight in S1.

Sai Pavan

Armin has had a long record of being idealistic about tough situations. He is intelligent and pure of heart; he genuinely wants the best outcomes where people do not have to die. Unfortunately, it rarely works out. He tried to capture Annie safely, it failed. He tried to speak with and get through to Bert, it failed. He tried to deceive the Yeagerists, it failed. Yet still, he remains resolute in doing what he believes to be right. And I respect him very much for that. I just hope his efforts will pay off, even just once, by the end of the series.

CastSenpai

Sai Pavan, you have a good point and I completely see why a lot of people (especially citizens of Paradis) wouldn't care. I also think I maybe wouldnt if that were my only perception of The World (actually I probably would still). The Scouts though spent time with this 'break-away civilisation' and met the innocent people there, and have even befriended those who have families there so it's different for them.

Effi

I don’t think that analogy works Sai. If anything, Paradise is mars; a small fringe of humanity threatening the ENTIRE world, not just those they have conflict with. A more accurate analogy would be a nation actively engaging in thermonuclear war that will destroy the entire planet. A nation willing to kill untold innocents, obliterate all outside knowledge and culture, annihilate all nature, life, and ecosystems that they cannot see. I’ll give it to you that it would be a fair action for a paradise citizen to maybe be inclined to join the Yeagerists, but it is a decision made in ignorance. They have had YEARS to reconcile the reality of the world. Years to decide what is objectively and morally right. In the end, they have to live with the choice they made and the dangers that come with it. If you choose kill or be killed, accept that you may be killed.

CastSenpai

Me? No. But then I wouldn't shoot anyone.  I'm OK with that justification for it though. Also I wouldn't call Daz and Samuel Conny's family so not really a true analogy.

Effi

Personally, I don't think it's wrong to VALUE a small group of friends over a larger group of strangers(say, the entire world in this show). Depends on how much you care about them and what lengths you would go to for their sake. Others with more noble minds may have different opinions and I completely respect them for that. On the one hand, I know that genocide is not the right answer and get where the Alliance is coming from. One the other hand, if I were a citizen of paradise, I wouldn't give a rat's arse about what's going to happen to ppl outside the walls because I grew up knowing that the only world important to me is paradise and I would instinctively support the yaegerists because they're trying to save me. For example, let us suppose all your life you believed that humanity on earth is the only intelligent species in your universe/world and one day you get to know that we are a break-away civilization from Mars who came to Earth to live life in peace. The ppl on Mars hate you and are planning to nuke the earth so your president is going to nuke mars first to save billions of people on earth from being nuked. As earthlings, I believe everyone here would sing songs of praises for the president for his bold actions to save humanity. Personally, I don't see how this scenario is any different from the circumstances in AoT. I don't mean to criticize anyone but I'm interested to see how others react take my argument. I will take any rebuttals with substance (non idealistic and practical) with grace.

Sai Pavan

Absolutely. Involving Connie in this decision was a major thing too because earlier this season when onyankopon released them from the cells, Connie nearly choked him out, tearing up he said I'm tired of being betrayed by everyone

Mobin Shah

The worst thing is that they shot Armin in the mouth… I don’t know if it was intentional (knowing that he wouldn’t have died), but with that shot he couldn’t speak to his friends. Armin is the mind of the group, his plan probably sucked, but he could have talked to them and changed their thoughts and views about the rumbling. At least Daz and Samuel could have lived, and teamed with the Scouts… You saw them hesitate for a second since they were friends. Armin was getting closer and tried to heal faster to speak, I saw it that way, but Connie shot before that I blame it all on Floch and his ego… he was so manipulative with the others that needed a leader, I bet they’re all so brainwashed by him they think they’re doing the right thing without thinking.

Carolina

Erens founding titan didn’t appear in the manga for about 8 chapters which is 8 months for us waiting to see him in his full glory

Sean Carroll

So if you’re family wanted the rumbling but you didn’t and they were Samuel and daz and you’re conny would you have shot them?

Sean Carroll

Yes it was mikasas mistake along with kiyomi. There wasn’t really much choice though I guess

Sean Carroll

exactly. people tend to forget that most of the world is kinda "Reacting" and escalating to match other reactions and escalations. And sometimes, your options are limited.

Cyber

They weren't scouts until after/during the time-skip, otherwise they would've been killed during the battle of Shiganshina. But yeah our guys have known them since the training days

Yasiru Jayasinghe

Good discussion! Remember that they did not know that the port would be overrun, they went blindly with the cart as a scout. They were in hiding and if things all went well they would not have to kill or fight anyone, they basically put it at the back of their minds to have to kill the jagerists. So i guess their plan was very hopeful but it could have happened if the jeagerists didn’t take over the port

Georgie Acero

yes! many people forget about that moment with Connie and Armin's approach, but the title is so fitting because they called Reiner and Bert as TRAITORS in early episodes, and now THEY were called the traitors. insane parallels , this show does that very well

Cyber

I will shred the evidence until the day I die. Lol

Nick

Daz is indeed the guy who was lost in the snow in the early episodes. Samuel was on the wall with the cadets when the colossal appeared a second time. He fell of the wall and Sasha saved him. Crazy to think they survived this far but off screen

Luna lanes

Btw Ange just FYI, I personally think that Armin's inner monologue when he got shot in the face is that if he turned into titan, everyone at the port (including the plane that they need and ESPECIALLY connie) would be nuked if he transformed. Turning Colossal to heal is like using a nuclear reactor to power a battery. And this is why Connie had to step up here, not armin.

Cyber

Let them know how you feel Ange, we all react to stuff differently. Personally I think The Scout's plan sucks but their intentions is what makes me side with them. I love Eren as a character but screw him. Like Hange said, I'll be dammed if I have to justify genocide. The Jaegerists have no problem killing civilians.

Mr Joker

Ange I love your « everyone best sucks » like yeah totally. It’s such a sad show and I get frustrated a lot because the author doesn’t give us a safe easy option. Carlie you’re cute and you’re the voice of reason

Luna lanes

Nailed it. Not one of these Yeagerists are innocent. They all know what they are supporting. They are just as guilty-if not moreso- than any Marley soldier killed during the Paradise raid. There is no certainty in Paradise’s doom if Eren is stopped, but there is certainty for the rest of the world if he isn’t.

CastSenpai

Get Fact’d 💀from now on I will have to have to start referring to that episode as the on where everyone got Fact’d.

Jean-Luc Baca

Idk if you remember, but the “Marco look alike”, I’m pretty sure his name is Samuel, and in episode 3 or 4 of season 1, when the colossal appeared for the second time in the show, he fell off the wall and Sasha sprinted down the wall after him and saved him. And you already remember daz.

Skellyp

Personally, I'm not really conflicted on what the Scouts are doing. I just don't think they have much of a choice. The military never had a plan that addressed or solved every issue, but they did have a plan. Then Eren refuses to follow through, he dips and goes rogue. After the attack on Marley, the Scouts are left picking up the mess within the island. Marley counterattacks and boom: Eren starts the Rumbling. All within a very short window of time. So, now they're following through with the only plan they have left; stop Eren, even if it means Paradis is doomed. They're all well aware that stopping the Rumbling means they're potentially sacrificing their own people. For sure, Connie was naïve in thinking they could get through this without spilling blood. Regardless, they tried, and when it didn't work they steeled their resolve and got their hands dirty. But, whether they're friends or not, we're talking about a group of nationalists (headed by Floch, a weirdo extremist) who are doing everything they can to ensure a genocidal maniac wipes out all of humanity for the sake of their own land. Every Yeagerist at that dock is fully aware of what Eren is doing and supports it. Like, at that point, I don't really care if the Yaegerists have valid reasons for feeling the way they do- I'll cheer for the Alliance all the way, man.

Hive

Yes l agree with all of this. Personally, I will always root for the Scouts. At the end of the day their plan is to save the most (a huge number of) innocent lives here, if you've gotta turn on ''your own people'' to just make some desperate effort to stop billions of innocents dying then I'm OK with it

Effi

I get the "Jean is what Mikasa needs" but I'm still confused because she never showed any interest in him in the whole show and people use the reverse argument to criticize Eren because he doesn't " show any interest in Mikasa" (and he showed more attention to her than Mikasa to Jean). "he's nice he deserves the girl" is always a strange concept for me when the girl has been indifferent for 8 years already. (Not against you, just something I notice a lot in the Aot talks in general)

Luna lanes

The whole point of AoT is to test peoples allegiance to their “morales” even when faced with the reality that “right” and “wrong” are opinions in themselves

DANIEL PEEDAH

Regarding the founding titan, it didn't appear in the manga for so long that we started making memes about it 😂 "Everyone's plan SUCKS" just facts, nothing else! At this point I lost all hope and just waited for what would be going to happen next since most of these people's intentions are good (not Marley's government tho) but everyone's doing damage and in all honesty no plan is going to work considering all the hatred and brainwashing that's been going on for thousands of years. PLEASE guys don't you ever feel the pressure to justify or explain yourselves! Your opinions aren't wrong and people shouldn't be nasty towards you just because you're expressing your thoughts! All you've been saying is the truth! So PLEASE ignore any hateful comments! So just to let you know, there were some people who dared send death threats to Isayama and to the staff after the ending of the manga, like can you imagine the level of shallowness and craziness of those people!! so please don't let them get through to you! PEOPLE PLEASE! It's a FICTIONAL work! Let's stay civil and respectful!

Sammie

Just so you know; Samuel and Daz are from season 1. They lasted so long and survived in the Titan world as scouts, to end being killed by longtime friends.

roy wiggs

Isayama does an amazing job making it hard to root for anyone. It’s just heartbreak and tragedy all around. At this point in the series, my thoughts just came down to what’s the least tragic thing.

Jumod Jones

I’m pretty much fully against the Jeagerists at this point. I’m in full agreement with Hange, genocide is wrong no matter the justification, full stop. So while it’s horribly tragic what Conny had to do, I think it’s needed. And to be fair, they shot Armin first. Fascism is a plague that is easily spread in groups, and they gotta go. It’s incredibly wrong to value a small group of friends over the rest of humanity if you ask me. Can’t forget, the scouts have had to say goodbye to friends for years.

CastSenpai

Not sure if you've read the manga but I'll just say the questions you asked are answered

Mr Joker

For sure! I think the thing that is so hard about this is that there really is no "good" option. Like, every plan that anyone could come up with in this moment is going to have some element of "well that sounds completely horrible" because the entire situation is just fundamentally horrible.

Beagle

The parallels with bertholdt's decisions make a lot more sense now. "You're my friends, but you have to die" The world is just that cruel

Mobin Shah

Very well said. I think it’s important to point out that it’s not just the enforcers that I was referring to as those getting betrayed. But also the scout’s families and other civilians in Paradise because I’m under the impression that the scouts actions will almost certainly result in the others’ demise. But things could change. Still one more episode to go! (We’ve already seen 27). -Ange

Carlie & Ange

1. If armin transformed he would destroy the boat that they needed and kill Connie. 2. Also remember that the scouts are in a serious rush. As hange said the rumbling has most likely reached marley already meaning that they need to get going really quick and rushed plans tend to fall apart quick naturally. 3. If you find it weird for the scouts to be willing to kill their friends couldnt you say the same about the yaegerists who also consider the main characters as friends. 4. If Erwin was chosen I reckon he might have come up with a potentially better plan…… ah well too bad the best character is dead because armin wanted to see water

Sean Carroll

They did believe them and the plan kinda worked, but mikasa fucked it up by saving her kin from floch executing them, after that floch escaped and flew out and warned everyone they are traitors

Chrisiyyi

In my opinion, I agreed with Zeke's plan the most 😭 Let the Eldian's die off peacefully with the threat of the Rumbling keeping them protected for the rest of their years - but of course they wouldn't be able to build families and it'd be completely REMOVING a whole race of people, but it would be less blood shed. I know Eren believes everyone has the right to be born and be free, but in the corrupt world they live in, never being born sounds like the best kind of freedom to me 😞

Coco

I think a lot of this discussion just speaks to how fanaticism tears apart relationships. Like the plan was never to kill their friends, but at the end of the day the situation has changed so dramatically that it's not really an option anymore. That's something that the characters are having to come to terms with in the moment. I think the point is that yes, killing the people you've been fighting alongside for years sounds insane. But those people have also become the military enforcers of a literal global genocide, and they WILL kill you to make sure it happens. That relationship has fundamentally changed and isn't coming back.

Beagle

Haha YES! Completely agree with how you’ve articulated this. Which in turn makes it very hard for the viewer in my opinion. -Ange

Carlie & Ange

Yeah their plan is dumb. Intentions are great. But it’s also like wtf are they supposed to do, Eren decided not to talk to everyone and push them away. Now our group has to pick up all the pieces for a rumbling they never wanted. Also it’s dumb plan because you’re going against the founder who is the most op thing ever. So I have no clue what you do in this situation.

Mitchell Hall

I always love when I get to these episode I always say the same thing man all these plans suck lol but I can't think of anything else they can do.seems like there bad plan is the only plan.i kinda feel bad for the scouts having to make plans when eren has the ability to see the future kinda seems unfair lol

adam john peters

The goal of the story is to test your morals. This episode begs the question: Would you kill your friends who want to literally kill 99% of the population of the world in order to save the world?

Julio Magdaleno

100 % agree with you Ange, I had the exact same thoughts when I was watching these episodes.

Sshungite

I guess it’s just because a lot of the things discussed are usually a hot topic for very heated debates/arguments. It’s just meant to be a friendly reminder! 😊

Carlie & Ange

It already makes me sad, that you seem to feel a pressure to write this in the info text... 😪 Respect should be obvious! ☝️

MasterOfPuppets

Connie’s scream tho 😢

GB3