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alex bozdog
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Chapter 175

PUNISHMENT:

Infraction stemmed from Bullying I (Mitigating circumstances : Inside Dungeon, 50% lowered punishment) : 1000 experience lost.

Punishments until Bullying I upgraded to Bullying II : 1/3.

Ajax brought up the notification he had gotten in the middle of taking out the wolves and swearing under his breath.

“Seriously?” he muttered, “Guess I’ll need to be more careful about this in the future.”

He brought up his Retribution to double check some things.

RETRIBUTION :

Repeated and extended fighting and killing against much lower levels has been noticed. THis is strongly discouraged, Punishment : Bullying I applied.

Bullying I : all experience and skill gains from fighting substantially weaker enemies reduced by 20%. (A substantially weaker enemy is considered from your level with a baseline. A creature with less than 90% of your level yet no less than five levels below you is substantially weaker.)

There it was, the discrepancy that had made him all but ignore the retribution since the day he had gotten it. Nowhere on it did it say that he will be punished by losing experience for going against it. Not only that but two thousand experience was a decent chunk, it took him a full delve to get that much towards the end of his time in Lessis.

More than that however he didn’t if the cost of the punishment was contant, was only the first of the three for two thousand experience, was the next one more, or would they only cost more once the Retribution upgraded Bullying? And most important of all, what would happen if he was brought below zero on the experience he had in the current level?

“Useless commoner.” Ruppert hissed as Ben was wrapping his bitten hand after having bandaged the leg. “Couldn’t you have done that before they jumped me?”

Under normal circumstances Ajax would have simply ignored the noble but his attitude had been getting on his nerves the entire time he had been tracking the deer, the punishment and loss of experience is what pushed him over the edge.

“My job here is to make sure you don’t wind up dead, getting injured is part of delving.” He shot back. “Best you learn the dangers of not always being aware of your surroundings with a simple bite, most die learning that lesson.”

“Why you - AGHHH” he started to answer back before Ben tightened the bandages around his arm.

“Leave it be.” Ben said. “You know he is right. Seems we still need to get used to the changes in the dungeon, here monsters are more likely to work together to make sure we die and even act slightly outside of the patterns their species would follow on the outside”

This was the reason they were taken by surprise. A griffin would have always gone for the bodies of one of the dead deer as it was simply a bigger prize that came without a fight. Not only that but the wolves would have simply waited out the fight and cleaned up anything that was left behind instead of trying to take on the victor.

“So, what should we do now?” Ben asked, he was a leader that valued the opinions of his party members.

“I say we keep going.” Annabeth said after storing the two cleanly killed deer in her ring. “Those wounds don’t seem too bad, a light healing spell and we should be able to push on.”

“Our instructions were to turn back if any of us were injured.” Rick countered.

“We should head back.” Ajax said as he pointed to the edge of the clearing. “Or at least I’m not carrying him if we have to later.”

“Oh yeah, definitely heading back.” Lexi confirmed as she looked where Ajax pointed.

The spiky leafed shrubbery Rupert had rolled through once the wolves let go of him wasn’t all that poisonous, for a level twenty-four like them at most it would give them a slight rash for a few hours. But considering the open wounds it would have gotten in, they all knew his arm and leg would swell up to three times their normal size in less than an hour's time and the bleeding would be hard to control after that without a proper healer.

“Yeah, can’t risk it without a proper healer.” Annabeth agreed.

“So we’re going back.” Ben nodded at the decision, there was no need to wait for Rupert to give his opinion considering the way his expression twisted when Annabeth first suggested they keep going with just some minor healing and having him tough it out.

“Which one of you kept track of our location?” Ajax asked as they all turned to him.

“Looking at the mountain.” Rick quickly picked up what he meant, after all Ajax wasn’t here as a real member of the party, him tracking down the deer could already be called too much but all that did was just remove some wasted time they would have spent wandering aimlessly, returning to a pre established safe point was something they needed to all keep in mind. “We need to head that way.”

Rick confidently strode off in that direction with everyone moving behind him. “This is the right way.” Ajax confirmed as he moved in behind them. “But which way did we just come from?”

“Why does that matter?” Rupert snapped.

“All floors beyond the first have a random layout.” Ajax answered. “You won’t know the map beforehand and they get bigger as you delve deeper into the dungeon. You have to keep in mind where the exit is, especially in maze floors.”

Ajax’s words made all of them freeze for a moment as they looked out through the trees having a hard time locating a direction now that the mountain was obscured by the canopy. They quickly started moving again but remained silent as they thought about it.

“If you find yourself in a cave or tunnel system without a way to keep track of your direction then change your approach, don’t randomly choose a path.” Ajax tried to teach them something he remembered from his classes back on earth.

“How would we change the approach?” Lexi asked, eager to make conversation now that Ajax started to open up a bit.

“You pick a side,” Ajax began to explain. “Left or right it doesn’t matter, and then you follow that wall, if there is a crossroads you always take the first on the side you chose.”

“That fails the moment you hit the first dead end.” Rupert shot back, but Ajax also saw the others also nodding along to what he said.

“It doesn’t actually.” he let out a small sigh. “You’re still looking at the passage as a whole.” he paused for a moment as he tried to remember how his computer science teacher explained it to him.

“Imagine that you have to traverse the entire maze by keeping one hand extended and in permanent contact with the wall.” He began. “If you ever hit a dead end you’ll find yourself naturally turning around but now but now the side of the tunnel you are touching has changed, when you come back to the crossroads you’ll take the second road in the direction you chose.”

“And what if there is no exit?” Ben asked clearly interested in the idea.

“If there is no exit you’ll eventually end up back where you started.” Ajax answered.

“This isn’t all that much better than going in a random direction, all you have to do is find one tunnel guarded by something you can’t fight and it falls apart.” Rick said.

“It does fall apart if you are looking for another exit and you run into something like that.” Ajax admitted. “But in a dungeon you should almost always be able to turn back, all you have to do is switch the hand that is keeping contact with the wall and walk forward, you’ll be retracting your steps all the way back to where you started.”

The next few minutes were quiet as all of them tried to visualize the example to try and find a flaw with the logic only for none of them to be able to come up with anything. “It does work.” Lexi exclaimed in her usual happy mood. Their discussion ended there however as they all arrived at the camp healer Ungus had set up to find they weren’t the first team back, they were in fact second to last.

“Looks like even the experienced team slipped up.” Ajax picked up the whisper as they entered the campsite.

“Which of you need medical attention?” healer Ungus quickly approached them.

“Rupert stuffed two wolf bites and the wounds may have been exposed to redpatch leaves.” Ben reported quickly, his military bearing showing again.

As Ajax looked around he saw that Dave’s group was the only one still out there. Both the group led by professor Silvertongue and instructor Gatecrasher had returned and each had a single member patched up and resting on one of the cots healer Ungus had set up.

It took another two hours before Dave’s group returned unharmed, but judging from the blood splattered on Dave and how it had dry and wet patches it was clear he had had to step in more than once, most likely not being so liberal with letting the nobles get hurt as Ajax or the professors were.

Comments

I have to agree with Shade this mechanic is idiotic. At the very least it should be disabled when protecting others or have a easy to fill counter IE Savior Achievement (disables Bullying Punishment while protecting life)

Nathan Victor McGraw

“ Not only that but two thousand experience” said 1000, though

J S

This retribution doesn't make much sense for in dungeons and severely handicaps delvers. Here's an example. Let's say you're a level 50. There's a dungeon that starts at level 40 but caps at level 60-70. In order to get to those higher levels, those delvers have to kill the many lower level monsters first, every single time they delve that dungeon. Eventually they'd get hit with penalty after penalty for "bullying" lower level monsters, in spite of being forced to do so to delve at an appropriate level. There's no incentive for the system to punish this behavior, and would leave delvers losing thousands of exp every delve and increasing their "bullying" punishment to ever increasing heights. Delving would become completely unsustainable for those even moderately leveled, and forget about higher levels.

Ziggy

Disagree...fighting is not explicitly killing. Could have easily used his hammer and a bit of void to cripple the wolves. They'd still be alive and the threat would have been mitigated.

Silver Beard

As long as you don't lose levels, experience can be made up.

userunfriendly

The punishment should be less experience gained, not an experience deduction. You can’t always chose who you fight.

Nick Nicholson

Posters have speculated that there's a skill, or possibly (my theory) a temporary trait that allows a teacher or teaching assistant like Ajax to save their charges when they get seriously endangered. Or, (I just thought of this) disparity of force is measured by the MEDIAN!!! If Ajax is in a party with students, because the system uses the median, not the mean or average, if he chops up a level 20's griffin, it doesn't count as bullying? I'm seriously looking forward to your thoughts on Monday's posted chapter! ^_^

userunfriendly

The discription also stats that there was a mitigating circumstance lowering the punishment by 50%, both instances after Ajax is thinking about it happening in the future when he might incur the full punishment.

alex bozdog

Yeah the potions only work to give you up to 10% of your stats as bonus. The nobles are so muhc farther ahead of regular people bcaus they can not only afford the potions but also to buy a boost to keep up with the floor level, meaning thy keep stacking the +1 to all stats from the dungeon floors, then they apply potions to those stats. Ajax is doing both things as well that is why he won;t be cought up to by nobles.

alex bozdog

We will delve deeper into how the punishment works but it won't be something that makes it so he sacrifices people because of the thing killing them being too weak for him to take out.

alex bozdog

The punishment would also apply to Hatchet if he had Bullying, But Ajax got Bullying from a Retribution. The retribution applied to him because he was reaping difficulty benefits despite being over leveled since he didn't spend his points at that time.

alex bozdog

Hatchet didn't have any gains besides the bodies of what he hunted, Ajax got punished because he spent 5 years increasing his skills and pushing himself, the last few of those he was outleveling them but still reaping the benifits of the difficulty because he didn't spend his points

alex bozdog

The initial description of Punishment says 1k exp, but you state two thousand experience twice in following text.

George Hicken

Honestly the game rule seems fine in the idea it wants to discourage high levels bulling low levels. I think it's because it's not clear when it applies. I strongly disagree with it applying in a dungeon at all when the normal behavior of the monsters is to attack.

evan keane

Pretty sure the stats is 10% of the total stats cannot be boosted. So if you have 100 earned stats you can have a potion bost to 111 not 110 as 10% of 111 is 11.1 As for the potions cost its due to the difficulty in making them as well as what stats theybtarget

evan keane

All right, I've been rereading past chapters, and I've done an analysis based on past chapters about punishment. Hypothesis 1) Doesn't apply to Self Defense. Monsters seem to automatically attack, inside and outside of a dungeon. And by self defense , it includes your party. Had Rupert and Ajax been in a party, it should have been fine. Ajax was defending a party member. This was why when Ajax killed monsters attacking his fellow delvers in the Collectors, that's ok. This is how the Collectors and other delving parties work at all. They're defending themselves from monsters. This also explains the snakes, who were attacking him. ^_^ Hypothesis 2) Applies only when a creature is aware of the Hunter. Hatchet is a Hunter. He uses Tracking and Stealth. He kills instantly, or almost with a single bow shot. Bullying doesn't apply when the target is unaware of the Hunter. And when Hatchet fails the shot, the prey will either turn on him, like a bear, thus making it self defense, or run away. The first time Ajax hunted a deer, Hatchet immediately followed up Ajax's shot with his own, so they don't have to chase it for miles. Why? Because once a deer is fleeing, a second shot will count as Bullying. Hypothesis 3) Disparity of Force. Alex has made it clear if a village was being attacked by monsters, saving them isn't going to count, as the huge number of lesser level monsters can kill you. As a further clarification of Hypotheses 1, by self defense, they can kill, or hurt you. Snakes can kill you. The System doesn't take account of the fact that you have Poison Resistance, or your stats, it sees a level 32, can be hurt badly by venomous snake, self defense. The Collectors are approximately level 50. Trip the obelisk, hundreds of monsters can kill you, even at lower level. So, sooner or later, as you level up, things deadly will no longer be a threat to you. That's why you move on from that dungeon. Like the Collectors. Conclusion) Bullying seems overly complicated, but think of the alternative. In a world with a system, but no bullying, there's nothing preventing a psychopath ruler from harvesting villages for easy levels. That story of the Grim Reaper, where he's hunted by a local ruler, sounds like a ruler harvesting easy XP. Preying on his or her own people is ultimately self harming to a ruler, but not all rulers are sane. So the way I see it, Isekai stories involving a system WITHOUT a Bullying mechanism are the unrealistic ones. Those civilizations are at the mercy of a single psychopath ruler. ^_^

userunfriendly

10%. It has been explained that exceeding 10% of your stats, though we don't know if that includes stats acquired from previous potions, results in very bad things happening.

userunfriendly

It's tough, because we don't know what the system wants. If it rewards for taking a life, why wouldn't it punish for preserving one? ( which kind of sets a terrifying precedent...) Plus, we know it doesn't really care for circumstance, condidering it was looking only at level and not at stats when giving him the original Retribution.

Kanyau

I thought that there was some kind of limit where stat potions could only account for like 20% of your stats before they’re lethal or something. So everyone has the same potential benefit limit for the potions.

Stephen Place

I also kinda really dislike the stat potions because someone can just spend some money and get more stats than the MC got from minimizing his screen for a few years. The lower your stats the cheaper the potion. So all high nobles should have as many stats he has at the same level. It makes his trick only useful to poor nobles.

ShadeByTheSea

Honestly I think my main complaint is under "Mitigating circumstances" saving a life should have negated the punishment. Sure using people a bait could be an issue but there should be a separate retribution for that. Honestly I wouldn't have cared as much if the Infraction had happened when he was killing a random low level creature.

ShadeByTheSea

That's one of the things that made me think the system is smart or at least takes context into it's process.

ro

Ajax is a baby sitter. As tempting as it would be to spank Rupert (with an axe) he's stuck. ^_^

userunfriendly

To your point I never thought one made a lot of sense either. I mean Hatchet is meticulous which prey he chooses as a result of this system, but it begs to question how the collectors were delving lower levels so comfortably, why the delves with the healers union didn't punish ajax and how the careful collectors intend to carry their healer with such a level discrepancy. The purpose is no farming or power leveling and in games when your level is to high you don't get aggro and it would be better applied here that lower lvl monsters detect your aura and turn the other way making the punishment system make more sense, but if I wanted to make story decisions I would write my own book. You do you author-san.

Debiruman

Brings up an interesting point though. Hatchet was the village Hunter; likely in the 60-80 level range himself but he couldn't have been killing high level targets for the 5+ years. That's got to be a lot of instances of preying on weaker creatures who never had a chance. So how does he not know? How did he avoid a Punishment?

Silver Beard

If there isn't there should be a rule or std that you don't delve with those you can't trust. Ajax has enough ammo and likely support of the rest of the group to bump Rupert out.

Silver Beard

Concur. This is the author's show, I am just a reader along for the ride. However, this aspect of the "game system" seems to simply add lead weights to the story. My "opinion" is this "game rule" makes things overly complicated and adds zip to the reading experience. *sigh* It feels like I am back at college playing a role playing game with a GM who thinks the standard game rules made game night "too easy". Thus, the GM would create no win rules/situations that bogged down the game play. The GM thought he was a genius. After a while, the players simply quit coming to the game. Heh! :-)

John Doe

You have to pick one, if the system can determine contribution beyond just damage than it should be about to pick up intent, at least externally. If he doesn't damage the deer than his contribution would be 0 unless the system can do more than mathematical comparisons. Though it's hard to see a world where almost all nobles don't also have [Bullying I] so at least he should be able to research more about it at University.

ShadeByTheSea

In my perspective bullying to be a poor name of the punishment. I’m thinking of it as unchallenged, if anything, but the author may prove me wrong, but if one becomes skilled at anything, then repeatedly do simple unchallenging reputations of the same thing, one loses there skill in that. Also there can be titles or achievements that can counter the effects like Gard, Teacher, Hunter. Hatchet hunted in the forest years, where he was over leveled, but remained the strongest person in the village.

Tarkkail Mejn

well it could be cool if Ajax gets a chance to learn all this, it would be an interesting progression and exploration of the system. Just was worried it would end up with Ajax not being able to do things like delve properly. In my head it looked like every time Ajax went to delve every floor with lower level monsters would be unkillable unless he wanted to wast all the XP he would gain.

ro

Here's my speculation. Do the Ascended get to edit the system? Going back to the story of the Grim Reaper, about how his village was literally hunted down by nobility, it sounds suspiciously like a noble power leveling by mass hunting of people lower level than himself. Same for the Giants attack on the human empire. If the Ascended get to edit the system, I'm thinking that the Grim Reaper put in the system of Punishment and Retribution to prevent those kinds of mass slaughtering for levels in the future. ^_^ Edit: changed "Transcendental" to "Ascended" after checking the relevant chapter. ^_^

userunfriendly

No, because the CONTRIBUTION counts, remember? Besides, it's not like they don't already have power leveling. The Collectors are getting a boost for the Capital's dungeon, like those two siblings got for Ajax's second dungeon.

userunfriendly

@userunfriendly: tying down a something and letting someone else kill it is power leveling and something the system should also hand out punishments for.

ShadeByTheSea

It has been explicitly stated that it won't reduce his levels when he first got the punishment. It will drop him to 0xp for the level then go no further.

Frardowin

He's supposed to disable the deer, and let someone else kill it. The Punishment does indeed make sense. It's supposed to prevent exploits like slaughtering a bunch of weaker monsters to boost your level.

userunfriendly

Yes. Sorry, Shade. It's unreasonable to expect a System to read intent. It is reasonable to expect a System to read levels, and do a mathematical comparison, and to countdown a counter. Ajax should have done more research, instead of saying "Whew!" the first time he killed a snake and didn't trigger Punishment. You've designed a logistically consistent System Alex. Well done!

userunfriendly

Meaning he can't hunt a deer to feed a family either and if there's no high level monsters to hunt he'll have to trigger it to feed himself. I'm just going to navigate away for now and read latter before I get too worked up and this one story element ruins the story for me.

ShadeByTheSea

Hatchet didn't know them, but is he in the one place in the entire kingdom that stockpiles knowledge, so he will soon be looking into it.

alex bozdog

the ten snakes did count as ten different indivdual instances, the wolves were all one instance, its not the number of beast its the number of instances, also if enough monsters stack up, like say he triggers the obelisks on this floor that will be more than enough for it not to count as an instance of bullying it is something he will have to learn more about though

alex bozdog

There wouldn't be a point where he is forced to choose between saving a village or getting the punishment to trigger, if he is stong enough that their number means nothing, than focing monsters to retreat should be easy. If they are strong enough not be fodder and they are in large numbers the numbers would make the system not count it. Bullying only triggers after a number of instaces where is beating on things below his level with no difficulty like six wolves, or individual monsters like the snakes he hunted in the forest

alex bozdog

So the numbers in the mob he faces matters? Good to know. Did Hatchet teach him the exceptions? Otherwise Ajax could get really screwed.

userunfriendly

It is more based on number of instances that happen, remember that he had also been hunting the snakes in the forest before all this. It's not based on the number of foes he kills, in fact wiping out one hundred in one go wouldn't count since the numbers make it a more even battle, but going one versus ten with such a low difficulty in the one that pushed it over the edge.

alex bozdog

Agreed. He should have mentioned his Punishment from the beginning and gone with the third or fourth years. The system isn't supposed to be fair. The system is like Democracy...unfair to everyone equally. ^_^

userunfriendly

"Repeated and extended fighting" he didn't forget it, he just didn't think he would get punished for protecting people. This was neither repeated or extended. He already has an xp lost, that should be enough unless he goes back to farming low level monsters. There's not point in including the 20% xp lost if it's just going to punish him further every time he touches a couple low level monsters.

ShadeByTheSea

yeah, I didn't complain before because I though it'd just be a reduced xp, and like if he went on a killing spree it'd punish him further. Instead he's punished for like 10 wolves while protecting someone.

ShadeByTheSea

I see this as a perfectly valid punishment for forgetting his curse. The System in this story is rule-based. The System Giveth when one follows its rules and the System Taketh Away if one is being a Moron. It was very obvious this could happen in this delve - he didn't pay attention and got screwed. He needs to learn restraint spells or just learn disabling techniques. When he out-levels his opponent, so much, it won't be a problem disabling them. It will also be helpful when he faces other Nobles where killing them will cause more problems then just disabling them.

lenkite

I'm sorry, but a story element that could force the MC into a choice between saving a city and having to restart his life or watching it burn is just not something I'm interested in. Sure he could go through breaking legs or disabling monsters, but home many lives will be lost when he's doing that. Worst he'll tire out faster and likely die.

ShadeByTheSea

Rest in Peace Rupert. ^_^

userunfriendly

I don't really get the punishment, seems like the system is really smart so why would he get punished when he obviously isn't trying to farm low levels?

ro

No, he's supposed to knock them out, or break their legs. Bullying means he's strong enough to chop off the griffin's wings, and break its legs. Then let someone else finish it off, like with that rabbit in the Feeder dungeon.

userunfriendly

I shouldn't even activate at all if he's protecting someone.

ShadeByTheSea

Honestly don't mind the reduced experience gain, but actually losing experience is where I draw the line. He could literally be reduced to level 1 for saving a village. The story is good and all but that one feature has ruined it for me. Bullying shouldn't progress unless he goes on a killing spree, killing like 10 wolves shouldn't progress it. What's he suppose to do, stand there and let the wolves eat him if he's alone?

ShadeByTheSea

Rupert is going to keep pushing the superiority complex until he does something monumentally stupid. Or until he goes for the underhanded approach and tries sabotage.

Sarah Ott

First! Gah...it was Punishment. So how did he avoid it on his previous delves... Ah! I'm an idiot! That's why he quit delving in that dungeon with the Collectors! He had outgrown it! This should be the first time he's gone into an under level dungeon. But what about the snakes he killed for his quota for the Healers? The rabbits he let someone else dispatch, so that was ok. Or is it cumulative? The 10 snakes he killed for the venom weren't actually monsters? Hmmm...

userunfriendly


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