What do we want from Nvidia CPUs & APUs? (Die Shrink Telegrams)
Added 2024-11-13 21:03:16 +0000 UTCWhile we will definitely talk about the leaks about upcoming Nvidia Laptop APUs in the next Broken Silicon - before then we thought it might be good to involve you all in a discussion about what we want from these products...
What price points are we hoping for? What level of performance? How do we want Nvidia entering CPU to affect competition? How should AMD, Intel, and Qualcomm respond?
Write in below with your thoughts, concerns, and questions regarding Nvidia making APUs and entering into CPU competition! You have at least 3 hours to submit!
https://www.youtube.com/live/8bfS0fcyXpg?si=rAxm2T6Ibb0kQRuU
https://youtu.be/JyTRoMXngRk?si=rCkpWvW-WW2MJaII&t=6908
Comments
Hey Tom and Dan. I think that what we all want is good performance (ryzen 7 cpu w/ 70ti class gpu) at a reasonable cost. Will Nvidia give us this? I'm doubtful just based on their behavior in the past. We all have to come to terms with the client PC space declining in priority when hardware is designed, and hopefully cut down on all the "Has fill in your company of choice abandoned gamers?" The answer is yes to all of them, that is the reality of the semiconductor market combined with the modern imperative that all charts must go up. One aspect I think might work in our favor though is the APU being planned from the outset as a gaming chip, cutting out extra AI only parts and tuning for gaming, much like Zen 2 in the ps5. Again I could see this being highly probable due to the clear separation Nvidia is trying to draw between their consumer and pro lines. Personally, I think gaming dgpus are on their way out, and this news from nvidia reinforces that thought. With the cost, power and performance benefits of an apu along with OEMs desire to sell you new hardware every year we are at the start of a new direction for gaming. This does not bode well for consumers on the cost side either, look at what apple charges for memory and storage upgrades, do you really think Nvidia would be any better? Hopefully, competition can keep prices reasonable. If nothing else my dream is to one day just be able to design and buy a chip for my specific need much like how easy it is to order custom PCBs. Leading semiconductor design software already abstracts away much of the low level knowledge needed and AI is increasingly being used, with better results than humans, for the physical layout of components and wiring. Anyway that is my dream, love the show and keep doing what you do best.
PenguinsloveAI
2024-11-14 23:57:45 +0000 UTCpersonaly i would love a Desktop APU that is actually meant to be used without a GPU. So much so that it doesnt have PCIE lanes for GPUs but a comically large gpu compared to whats available now
Bangforbuck
2024-11-14 20:49:41 +0000 UTCI hope that AMD or Nvidia will up the clocks and cache so there it is clear if RISC is really an X86/CISC killer or not. Multiple manufacturers is good but the more platforms ARM, X86, RISC 5 means incompatibility and less support across platforms. Emulation for AAA games just doesn't cut it
Early80sPC-Gamer
2024-11-14 15:15:31 +0000 UTCWhat I want is for Nvidia to jump on the SteamOS bandwagon and put their engineers into implementing a well-supported gaming OS for desktop.
James Prendergast
2024-11-14 06:31:52 +0000 UTCNot what we want, it is what NVidia wants. NVidia wants the well to do Apple customers in the consumer space. NVidia will go after iPhone and Apple computing products as this is where the money is... What do I want? I want a third competitor AMD to survive with every improving products.
Kiln God
2024-11-14 01:48:21 +0000 UTCOk. I had misinterpreted the performance Nvidia would be expecting. So they're aiming late 2025 for around a 4060 Ti desktop /at best/ in their laptop. Which would probably be comparable to a 5050 Ti or at best a 5060 Mobile. At that price point, they really shouldn't be charging more than $899 then. But they're doing it in a partnership with Alienware. Sounds more like it'll be $1499; if not more.
TechnoLadz
2024-11-14 01:45:54 +0000 UTCIntel once gave us 1.5 billion over a few years to not use or emulate x86. How about we give them 1.5 billion for a license.
Jen-Hsun Huang
2024-11-14 01:37:35 +0000 UTCI hope it pushes changes in how apus are thought of and what we think is possible in a combined package. The hope would be a strong 8 core CPU that can push near 80 class GPU performance. This could bring the "golden age" of mobility, handhelds, and low power on the go full power plugged in.
BaconHouse Collective
2024-11-14 01:12:09 +0000 UTCI don't have much faith on Windows on ARM... Are you sure it's not going to spaz out and die like other MS ARM push, including the Microsoft RT that Nvidia themselves was involved in?
Dark Side of the Force
2024-11-14 00:09:37 +0000 UTCI want Nvidia to give AMD a run for their money. Can you imagine the innovation? Something transformative could come from it. Intel gave us meagre performance gains and look what happened. How long can AMD maintain the 3D cache advantage, and is it really a golden goose? What is next? It could be Nvidia.
MyySharona
2024-11-14 00:08:07 +0000 UTCAs everyone is saying compatibility - with games and Windows. Openness for programmers to utilise the APU. No weird hardware decisions that breaks half of the ARM programs that aren't from partners. Good battery life, performance shouldn't be lagging behind, without too much of a premium and their "just not enough RAM" segmentation, but it's Nvidia.
Kator
2024-11-13 23:53:08 +0000 UTCThat's a very good point, although I disagree with your prediction. I don't believe most consumers really know who Nvidia is, they know Intel and I don't think most even know AMD.....although, with Nvidia being in the news so much for AI, maybe they do actually know them well enough now. π€
The Dread Pirate Fred Fredburger
2024-11-13 23:47:40 +0000 UTCI love my Shield TV but it's insane how they are full price still. Imagine how much a new one would be π€£
undertone247
2024-11-13 23:43:19 +0000 UTCOh yeah CPU core wise that's right. It's their GPU because that blows because they can only use Mali GPUs because of their license with Arm.
undertone247
2024-11-13 23:42:31 +0000 UTCThat used to be true about Mediatek, but they actually surpassed Qualcomm with the Dimensity 9300.
The Dread Pirate Fred Fredburger
2024-11-13 23:40:01 +0000 UTCI've heard nothing to indicate that Intel's GPU misadventures killed them or their CPUs. My understanding is that their culture and systemic problems killed their CPUs and put them in this position.
The Dread Pirate Fred Fredburger
2024-11-13 23:27:40 +0000 UTCThe best I could hope for is that Nvidia keeps AMD and Qualcomm honest and innovating, light a fire under Microsoft to FINALLY get the mess that is Windows on ARM together, and Intel.....well they just need to stay in business so that they can hopefully recover one day and once again be competitive in X86...without their CPUs doubling as space-heaters. EDIT: I just remembered that Nvidia is working with Mediatek. They used to be pretty middling, but since the Dimensity 9300 they've actually been better than Qualcomm. My point being that a partnership between them may actually produce something truly epic, especially with Nvidia's competency in software.
The Dread Pirate Fred Fredburger
2024-11-13 23:17:22 +0000 UTCUnless Microsoft fixes Windows on Arm and has a compatibility layer as good as Apple's, it doesn't interest me much for a laptop. If anything, I'd prefer to see an updated Nvidia Shield tv box running Android that can use its AI for better upscaling for streaming content.
Wund3rBr3d
2024-11-13 23:15:00 +0000 UTCIf Nvidia enters the client CPU space, I'd want compatibility with games and software without taking a massive performance hit. In order to do that they'll have to develop an advanced compatibility layer like Apple's Rosetta. They would also need a functioning OS that they could pair with it, and Windows does not fit that bill for the foreseeable future. Assuming that all of that is resolved, I'd also want a really good reason to move over to Nvidia's platform. It would have to be cheaper, significantly faster, or much more efficient for me to consider buying in. If they decide to ditch Windows, I'd also love to see what alternatives that they can come up with. Will they try to use their own fork of Linux on ARM, or will they pull an Apple and make something completely new? Will JensenOS become a reality?
kjm015
2024-11-13 22:49:15 +0000 UTCIs there any chance for, similarly to how Intel decided to put a lot of resources into making GPUs which led the to the position they are in today, that Nvidia invests a lot into making CPUs and loses their competitive edge in GPUs? Or does Intel's downfall leave too much potential market for Nvidia to fail?
A Ikes
2024-11-13 22:44:35 +0000 UTCMy impression so far is that Qualcomm has completely failed to engage with developers and I remember thinking earlier in the year that Nvidia wouldnβt make the same mistake. Even so, I think it would take a huge effort from Nvidia to get Windows on ARM up to speed in terms of application support, including games. So for a first generation product range I wouldnβt expect too much but to achieve any momentum I think itβs clear that Nvidia would have to offer something new. I think that would be hard to achieve outside of a GPU heavy system, so I think they should focus on gaming centric systems that offer a new level of performance for a given price.
Chris Rijk
2024-11-13 22:44:19 +0000 UTCWhat do we want from Nvidia APU: compatibility. Not some Qualcomm half-baked attempt, but real game compatibility/translation layer. I don't think Windows will be ready in time. They've tried for what... a decade... and failed. Strangely, Nvidia has gotten quite a bit warmer towards Linux in the past 1-2 years: 2024 Nov https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-Wayland-Driver-Plans-24 https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.13-DRM-Panic-Nouveau 2024 Oct https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-Wayland-Roadmap-2024 2024 July https://www.phoronix.com/news/NVIDIA-Transitions-OSS-KMD 2024 Apr https://www.phoronix.com/news/Ben-Skeggs-Joins-NVIDIA 2024 Mar https://www.phoronix.com/review/nvidia-555-open 2022 May https://www.phoronix.com/review/nvidia-open-kernel
Nicholas Buckner
2024-11-13 22:18:52 +0000 UTCQualcomms list of supported games was laughable, Nvidia has to sort out the drivers and emulation to make this painfree. Steamdeck and Proton are the benchmark. Iβm ok with middling cpu performance if they can nail power consumption, particularly in light workloads. If they have a deal with Alienware the prices will probably not be anything to write home about but if they can get about zen 4 + 4070 performance in an xps13 sort of formfactor, $1300 seems acceptable imo. If itβs much higher than that, it better be a really fancy laptop.
Lucas
2024-11-13 22:08:12 +0000 UTCTBH if anyone can bruteforce arm into the pc world it's nvidia not qualcomm. I think x86 cannot be the only option. Maybe this will also open up possibilities for better operating systems or linux will finally mature into full fledged windows alternative.
QuickJumper
2024-11-13 21:53:39 +0000 UTCWould you bet $20 that once Nvidia gains footing in ARM-based APUs that Jensen will come up with a new feature that flies under the radar for 10 years before he makes an entirely new market for it again?
coladict
2024-11-13 21:51:22 +0000 UTCWe all assume MediaTek will get and use Nvidia GPU IP, and do the rest themselves. What do you think? Could there be a curve ball (Nvidia providing NPU, not GPU, or Nvidia providing both GPU and CPU)?
KarbinCry
2024-11-13 21:30:07 +0000 UTCDo you think Nvidia will release high end APU, while MediaTek fills out the low end and mid tier? Or will Nvidia want an in house full stack solution, even though that would mean competing against itself in a way, competing with MediaTek?
KarbinCry
2024-11-13 21:29:00 +0000 UTCI am now a sad xtx
Sad XTX 999
2024-11-13 21:27:58 +0000 UTCBased on what you know about Sound Wave, should Nvidia feel as threatened by it as it seems they are (as they're rushing to get to market first)?
KarbinCry
2024-11-13 21:27:46 +0000 UTCWill Nvidia APU use LPDDR, GDDR, or maybe a mix of both?
KarbinCry
2024-11-13 21:27:02 +0000 UTCHow much will Qualcomm benefit from Nvidia pushing ARM on Windows? Or will they be left in the dust? They have the highest performing non-Apple ARM CPU, after all...
KarbinCry
2024-11-13 21:26:38 +0000 UTCDo you think the APUs will use Nvidia's NPU (which adds AI perf in Orin), or will they use only the GPU for on device AI?
KarbinCry
2024-11-13 21:25:46 +0000 UTCTom, I think when when I look at RDNA4 it's decent performance for the $. From an Nvidia APU, I assume this is for mobile, something that has 4070 GPU level power with at least 12 GB vram and a decent CPU power. Ryzen 7700x level of power would be amazing at like $1500. I feel we will get 4060 power with 6 GB vram and 5600x level CPU power for $2000 because Nvidia likes money and the CPU cores first round will likely be weak since they will be mediatek cores, not even Snapdragon level.
undertone247
2024-11-13 21:24:56 +0000 UTCI dunno if Nvidia can really excite people if they go nuts and price their best APUs beyond the $1000-1500 segment. That's the price bracket where AMD and Intel tend to have their generalist, decent blend of gaming and productivity laptops, and that's where Nvidia should top out at, especially if the CPU is weaker versus Strix Halo. The problem with Nvidia is that they're so used to getting their way with pricing. This seems like it might be a big prestige project, so it feels like they might make the same mistake Qualcomm did with Snapdragon Elite pricing. Their brand means that people will buy at whatever initial price is set, but I don't know if Nvidia will let the partners drop prices as necessary to meet where the market determines their APUs should be.
Cleansweep
2024-11-13 21:22:40 +0000 UTCHonestly man you should change it moving forward or I may skip over questions. This isn't for any reason other than I don't need the extra arguing in the comments.
Moore's Law Is Dead
2024-11-13 21:20:39 +0000 UTCDuh duh duh duh duh π before Nvidia can meaningfully enter the APU market it needs gaming on Arm to become a thing. Or they may switch their focus entirely onto the professional/creator market. Anyway, why would the 4 trillion Green Titan even bother? This market is peanuts in comparison to the data center accelerator
Sakosha
2024-11-13 21:17:38 +0000 UTCI know the snapdragon elite fell short in the performance area but their battery life is commendable. If an nvidia handheld brought that level of arm battery life, class leading performance, and software like DLSS to boot? Iβd be surprised to see it fail. Thankfully (hopefully) the steam decks ease of use and popularity will be enough to keep nvidia from going crazy in prices.
Sad XTX 999
2024-11-13 21:16:26 +0000 UTCOne thing I have learned not to do is underestimate Jensen Wong. I'm sure he will make a power cpu, then in 5 years charge $2000 for it. Lol
Kinihun25
2024-11-13 21:16:21 +0000 UTCI assume that Nvidia will hit midrange performance compared to AMD. I think they'll need to be a decent bit cheaper than an R5. Maybe 20-30% cheaper (inverse of Nvidia vs AMD GPUs). Will be interesting to see if Nvidia put a GPU scheduler on their CPU to give the CPU some headroom
Corey Kast
2024-11-13 21:13:54 +0000 UTCNvidia's definitely going to piggy back off of the work Microsoft and Qualcomm did for Windows on ARM. They'll play it smart and let them take the fall and fix any major issues, then swoop in and release a much more polished product than the X Elite. That being said, I wonder if the Nvidia brand name, which is extremely strong for laptop GPUs, will also carry over to laptop CPUs? Something tells me it actually will be and they'll be able to command the prices the X Elite did and move units.
Question Generated By JensenGPT
2024-11-13 21:08:21 +0000 UTCTom when will you stop being afraid of getting canceled and say my full name π
Sad XTX 999
2024-11-13 21:05:04 +0000 UTC
