Update on things.

ofc the tiers would be adjusted accordingly and people would be expected to jump to a comfortable monthly tier. The new tiers could be capped at 20 or 30 bucks a month and then higher ones could be opened retrospectively if there's a popular demand for that.

Chronon

I particularly don't mind donating $50 monthly if it means 1 video per month w/ credits but I hardly think so - Firth was never one to compromise quality over quantity.

90's bambino

I've told him this idea on twitter on a conversation we were having about how hard it is to be an artist on a tight budget. Really think it's the best solution but let's not forget people on the 50$ tier (like me) and $200... That could really affect the money of some.

90's bambino

What Chronon said.

Should you switch to a monthly model? I think you get a check from Patreon way too rarely... (I'm on a $3/thing tier currently but think I could do 2-3 bucks a month for you ♥)

Chronon

I know it's not really related but I see that Umbilical world has sold out. Will it be available on dvd again or is that it sold out forever? Cheers

Scott

Nope, I don't assume that. There's really no way to prevent that though. Anyone can rip anything from anywhere and post it up on YouTube if they want. The only thing you can do is make it as tricky as possible. Also, while people here may well share it with their friends, I feel like we're the least likely demographic to just nick it and post it somewhere, since we respect the work enough to be paying for it out of our own pockets.

Eliot Lockwood

The flaw in your suggestion is that you assume no one who is legally granted access will share the video elsewhere. That's kind of the nature of the internet. No real way to prevent it, unless you want to be on an eternal witch hunt.

Plushine

Insanely late to the party here, but I agree that Vimeo on Demand (for a couple o' quid) is the way to go for the normies. Some may moan, but you've put out everything you've ever done for free, and after 10 SF episodes, I think it's perfectly fair to charge (and put a trailer/explaining-why-its-paid-for video on YouTube). Perhaps you could then release it for free a year or two later. As for giving it to us Patringtons, you can upload things to Vimeo as password-protected, which would add an extra layer of security over a private YouTube link. Even more intensely, you can select specific accounts that are the only ones who can see the video. This would mean people on here signing up to Vimeo and then you manually adding them to the video's permissions, but might be worth it... ?

Eliot Lockwood

Umbilical World is on brainfeeder. It's completely separate from Patreon. I actually made it in 2016 but it has been delayed for so long. Maybe as a reward in the future I could give out download codes or something. I'm not sure.

David Firth

Will patrons have early access or something related to Umbilical World?

90's bambino

Create the whole series and release it on DVD.

Cynic Snacks

Looks like a pretty good response in comments on youtube; people saying they'd like commentary and stuff. Pretty good response so far I think.

Mac

Hmmmm... a sticky one... Everyone could bundle round my house. Might be a bit of a squeeze.

Louise Ivy

Just saw the trailer for your feature-length animation releasing next month. Looks great!

1337VV4ff135

I particularly like the idea of patreon-restricted physical copies. Could also further prevent malicious people from releasing your stuff publicly and also give us a little extra excitement of being the ones who have SL 11 on tape/dvd/etc knowing we helped fund it.

90's bambino

You could put it on a VHS tape and go to everyone's house separately. We should be able to feed you, if necessary.

Andy

Despite the general dislike for YouTube, I would still upload it there once the Vimeo income plateaus.

Roman Williams

I'm late to the party here but does patreon not provide you a list of you patrons? If that's the case it wouldn't be hard to just stick the content up on fat-pie we identify who we are. You get stats back if someone is sharing their patreon id to give others access to you content. If your interested in doing it this way give me a heads up I'm happy to give you a hand.

Razmirz

I get what you are saying. I found you through newgrounds back in the day not YouTube. I think your right a patreon video would be ideal. Your work, your income that we are happy to assist with.

Alex Durward

I have nothing new to add, I just want to say that I would be more than happy to support you monthly. I'm not donating much to be honest, but that is how I could keep doing it even though any rewards wouldn't be more often than once every two years or so.

Melanie

I love your work David! Don't feel I'm educated enough about YT's latest algorithm change (changes every fucking day, doesn't it?) to comment on it, just hope you continue your work!

Ben Shepherd

I understand but there's likely Salad Fingers fans that may not look at it like all the hard work it is. I've seen other creators get SEVERE backlash even though all they're asking is "Hey I'm a regular dude who makes extra ordinary things, if you like that I also need a roof and food." Many don't get it. I say go for it but get the umbrella ready for the ensuing uninformed shit-storm. Thanks for trying to make this work. You've been a huge inspiration and source of entertainment since Weebl linked to Ptikobj somewhere I forget now. You also introduced me to Boards of Canada. Just thanks in general.

eumoria

Well it would only be temporarily VOD. So much so that you could say people would pay for "early access". So only those who actually can't wait to watch it would pay, and if it has that much of an effect on someone then they shouldn't be too annoyed that the creator might need to ask for a small fee just to keep it going. I mean I never spent a whole year making an episode before. And ad rates are about 10x less than they were the last time I made an episode, not to mention that it also has about a 60% chance of not being suitable for advertisers. People can be mad but I doubt they ever worked a whole year for free.

David Firth

I would be worried that if you release a Salad Fingers in that manner people who have been watching that series for a while might get angry. They started watching it for free on an ad-supported site in Flash then moved to a free video streaming streaming service ad-supported. SHIFT+ENTER, not ENTER OK: I think that you'll retain the audience you want and also keep creating for a living but there's going to be a lot of angry people. A LOT.

eumoria

Do whatever you have to do. You have our full support.

Slip0824

YT has become a nightmare for content creators so you should stay away from this platform as long as they randomly flag your videos. I'd prefer if everyone could watch for free while providing you a revenue, it was possible 10 years ago but not anymore.

Choux Arnaud

I think it's a good idea to keep the new Salad Fingers episode off YouTube. I really appreciate that you're staying true to your creativity by not giving into sponsors and by not changing your videos to suit the way YouTube is now. I admire you for that, it's one of the main reasons I stick around!

Maricela

It'd be best if Patreon had a way to post videos. In the absence of that, I'd say go for posting a private video link. Even though video links can be leaked, those of us supporting you on Patreon should continue to do so regardless - you'll only miss out due to those viewers who probably just want to watch for free anyway. If someone has to look around for a link to the latest episode rather than just bang a search into YouTube, so be it. Leave your older stuff up for new viewers to discover and (if you haven't already) try and direct people from those videos to your Patreon.

Andrew Greenwood

Totally get it man. Things are a bit fucked with YouTube monetisation. You just do what works for you. Just want you happy and healthy!

Rory

Hi - I sympathise with these issues. There is so much entertainment for free now that I think very few people (from a large audience) are willing to take the time to sign up to a new service for content. I think it is the ‘effort to get the content’ rather than ‘the money’ that will make the difference. Just an idea; perhaps you could enter into a contractual arrangement with a larger YouTube channel. Your videos may not be monetised but they will draw views and attention to the channel. You can then be compensated directly by the channel. Of course, this has foreseeable problems with advertisers threatening the channel for purported ‘extreme content’, but if the channel is large enough and popular enough then perhaps this could work. Again, just an idea. Also, perhaps your content could be viewable via a popular subscription service like Amazon Prime? The popular series ‘Angry Video Game Nerd’ has done this recently. If your content is rated 18+ then I don’t see the problem. Ultimately, I think you will have to enter into an arrangement with a third party that will bring publicity and some income to you. Another half baked idea; people seem willing to pay $1 for mobile phone apps because it’s easy to do and doesn’t require any (or much) additional sign up. Could perhaps you release content onto mobile platforms in this manner? All just ideas with the hope they may trigger a thought process towards a solution.

Nitefly

I don't know how it would go down but maybe just a teaser on youtube showing practically 0 content (and therefore few triggers for the dramas you've had) but letting people know its up on vimeo Salad has millions of fans but not all will immediately jump on a pay for service so getting the message out will be important I realise I just suggested doing the dumb thing after you said i'm not doing the dumb thing so maybe instead similar on facebook and maybe Newgrounds?

James

Vimeo will allow you to use you coupons which can be sent to your patreon supporters so that they don’t have to pay again to see the new video.

Jordan Owen

I think it's reasonable to do that. And I agree with others that a teaser would be useful, since so many non-patreons are waiting for it.

Melanie H.

There are a lot of comments so apologies if I'm sounding like an echo. Totally get what you're saying with regards to the monetisation but the exposure you're going to get from a fresh SF episode might outweigh the other options. Could lead to more calls and paid gigs... Maybe it's worth seeing how it goes with this one? I do like the idea of some kind of credits disclaimer explaining your predicament though. The sheer number of people you'll bring in to YouTube may make them take some notice?

Brad Ferguson

Yeah, put a teaser on YouTube, and keep it exclusive somewhere else

Eric S. L.

I think that's fair. YouTube can just be used for previews and updates. As others have said, there's absolutely nothing that can be done to prevent people from leaking your work. It is possible to make it more difficult with certain technologies, but it's absolutely not bulletproof. I think the best approach is to preface the video with a sincere heartfelt message asking the viewers to not leak it.

Chatxp

The password for a private video is a lot easier to disseminate than a one-use code that gets tied to your Vimeo login though. Patreon offers export tools that let you get a CSV of all your patrons, which should be fairly easy to import into one of the popular email platforms, like Mailchimp. <a href="https://www.patreon.com/portal/how-to/export-pledge-data">https://www.patreon.com/portal/how-to/export-pledge-data</a> If you'd like, I can look into how difficult it would be to set up a system that automates this process. Another alternative to email I'm contemplating would be a web page where you would visit and log in with your Patreon to receive a VIP code. That way, you're not generating codes unless a Patron requests one. Definitely a more complicated system to set up though :( The Patreon App store lacks a Vimeo integration... and I'm starting to think there might be a business opportunity to set one up here :D

_nderscore

I don't think it's available to me.

David Firth

Oh interesting. Thanks. I was aware that I could create codes but I'm not sure how much work it would be to hand them out to everyone. It might just be easier to do a password protected video for the patreons.

David Firth

Sure. I'm not going to go around policing what people do. I do remember however the way Louis CK released something a few years ago, before he had Netflix deals (and before he lost them) It was $5 straight to him via Paypal. He simply wrote a note explaining that this show he recorded was entirely self funded and separate from any corporate interests and just kindly asked people not to torrent it. And it worked. I'm sure people still did but it felt like a direct connection with the artist rather than some multimillion dollar corporation.

David Firth

Buzzfeed can write about me if they want but I wouldn't approach them as I find their style of journalism utterly repulsive and feel they contribute hugely to the cult of outrage as well as the general stupifying of the internet. I'm not even sure those articles help. I think the only time I've ever been of interest to them is when I found this: <a href="https://www.buzzfeed.com/robynwilder/wtf-skellow" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://www.buzzfeed.com/robynwilder/wtf-skellow</a>

David Firth

Considering how well-known Salad Fingers is, I wonder what would happen if someplace like Buzzfeed wrote a story about your YouTube problems. They really are bizarre and don't make any sense. Videos of people abusing their kids, animal attack videos, anti-semitic videos, entire episodes of well-known TV series, etc. stay up and are monetized with no problem, while every two or three months yours are flagged for some reason. It's also strange that while your videos are demonetized, reaction videos where people watch them aren't -- I saw one where a guy is watching Salad Fingers 10, and there are three different commercial breaks within the 15-minute clip. I feel like someone who works there, like in the division that goes through and culls videos that are too extreme, has it in for you. I think an article with a title like, "A New Salad Fingers Is Coming, but You Might Not Be Able to Watch It" on someplace like AV Club, Buzzfeed, Vice, etc. would get a lot of positive attention for you, negative attention for YouTube, and might help you get treated more reasonably in the future.

MF Cappiello

Youtube can sit and spin. I'm with you, Mr. Firth. You'd be within your rights to put a video on youtube directing to Vimeo. That's what demonetisation feels like, Youtube.

Rev Rrrouse

Another possible option is to go out murdering and then come home and have beans on toast.

Marcus Cross

Yeah, I'm the same way. I'd really like to see your work get the recognition it deserves across the internet. I got into salad fingers when I was a kid, and I know I didn't have the money to donate to something like this, but it's such a great cartoon that I'd really miss out if I didn't see it. It's kind of annoying that because Youtube is such as POS that other potential fans would miss out on Mr Firth's work. I know you have to make a living, but I'm hoping you can find a way to balance this with the fact that your art needs to be seen and appreciated by new fans.

Leonardo Avalos

Why doesn't Patreon have their own streaming service? Streaming services are difficult; very difficult. Back before YouTube got bought out by Google, they had several competitors, and YouTube was down all the time .. just not as much as everyone else. You're talking about a lot of data going out to a lot of people. There are some open source alternatives people are currently working on like PeerTube. Anyone can run their own PeerTube server, and when people view a video on peer tube, they also share it with others who are watching. I think Bitchute does something similar, but it's not open source and you can't run your own. I'm currently out of work myself, so I have a lot of time. I'm thinking about setting up a PeerTube instance; could set one up for you as well. Let me know if you're interested: sumit@penguindreams.org

BattlePenguin

Look, no matter where you put the video, the moment one is able to watch it on his browser, one is also able to download and share it. If you were a poet you would publish a book called "collection of poems by D. Firth". In your case maybe you can sell a video collection featuring the new episode on amazon, like a music album or a movie. I'll buy that to support you and collectors will buy it for a physical copy and convenience.

Yadin O.

I would support you monthly so you won't depend as much on youtube monetisation while also letting as many people as possible to see your weird shit for free :) But then again, fuck youtube...tough call mate.

Paul Andrei

I'd suggest posting something like a preview on youtube to direct viewers to wherever it ends up being hosted. That's certainly better than hosting it there. They don't deserve you.

Plushine

This sounds like a bloody good idea. You are already famous enough to gain serious money and views without putting your work for free on the internet. I also would love to have more merchandise, especially figurines. That's the way most animated series' turn a profit (I guess).

Anselm Pyta

Yeah agreed. The idea that YouTube (and Spotify et al) give you a free platform for exposure is a little outdated now. Better to have fewer paying fans who gain exclusive access to work that means something than loads of nobodies who can only compare you with the broadest common denominator content. Good move, I support you David.

John Bartmann

Maybe Newgrounds? Back to the roots?

Benő András

I don't think it really matters how you post it for your patreons. If someone wants to download it: they will. If someone wants to spread it: they will. It's the internet, nothing you can do about it. Either trust or don't trust...

Yorick Matthys

I guess Patreon is not a website specifically for creators of video content but for all kinds of things. Although it would still be a good idea to have this functionality. But doesn't Vimeo have some kind of private sharing functionality? Eager to see the next Salad Fingers!

Piet van den Berg

Why don't you put in on YouTube in pay per view?

JohnEyes

I would support you monthly with no hesitation, even on months where you don't officially release anything.

Arbor

I'd like to give per month instead, i know you have said that you don't want to do it for whatever reason but I think most of your patrons would have no problem with it.

Andreas Sellstone

To be honest, it's kind of exciting. Yeah I know, it's fucked up, what YouTube is doing really sucks on a personal level - but this is quite a new change of pace, and moving somewhere other than YouTube always is. I like the thought of going to new platforms and pioneering in a place that's different from and better than YouTube. Now I know Vimeo isn't exactly new and is not completely interesting, but breaking the status quo by putting something this big on non-YouTube puts the future of internet entertainment in a different light. Imagine if we DID get a successful Vidme going on. Imagine if YouTube was just a shitty competitor like RealPlayer that never got its break again. The first step to getting there is to let people know that YouTube has crossed the line and to start posting great animated and filmed content somewhere else. Not Newgrounds, I guess. It's kinda too underground to get that popular.

Hindbodes

We don't deserve you David

Hivetyrant

I'm patreon-ing you, but I would still pay to watch the new epi. 🤷🏻‍♂️

Brian Kokernak

Its really sad how far youtube has fallen. But as long as you keep creating, I'll keep pledging. As for streaming your content, I'd say to try Vimeo.

Linwe.Myra

YouTube hates its creators. Dump them.

qqq1

Since you're already planning on using Vimeo to sell it, you might want to look into their promo code / VIP code offerings: <a href="https://help.vimeo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235699468-Vimeo-On-Demand-promo-codes" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://help.vimeo.com/hc/en-us/articles/235699468-Vimeo-On-Demand-promo-codes</a> I'm not a Vimeo content creator, so I don't have any experience with this or know what the actual options provided on their website are, but just from reading Vimeo's public API documentation, it looks like it should be possible to automate generating VIP codes port patrons pretty easily: <a href="https://developer.vimeo.com/api/reference/ondemand" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://developer.vimeo.com/api/reference/ondemand</a>#POST/ondemand/pages/{ondemand_id}/promotions Maybe batch-generate a new 30-day VIP code for each patron every month and send it in an email?

_nderscore

It depends on how you view Patreon. I see it as a way for fans to give an ongoing contribution to the creators they like. When it's per month, you are giving the Patron a consistent schedule of payment, while you yourself get a consistent paycheck. It's philosophically different than charging per feature. I think you and your patrons get more value out of the per month system, I personally don't understand the alternative. I've been a patron of yours for several months now and I haven't contributed a penny yet....it's not a good system for either of us. I'm a patron of yours to support you, I don't feel that I'm doing that with the current set up. Furthermore, you set the expectations for what you want to deliver in any given month. This is your space, you set the rules. Make clear what you will or won't be posting and people will accept it. People are here to contribute. Nothing to be stressed about... As long as you make stuff, we will be happy. And you've been doing this for a long long time so we know you will continue.

The Minute Hour

It wouldn't be permanently behind a paywall. It's more like a timed-exclusive. Those who don't care about seeing it within the first couple of months won't mind waiting, otherwise they could spare the cost of a cup of coffee for it. Per month seems like it'd be a lot of pressure. I get stressed about stuff like that.#

David Firth

Youtube has a pretty easy to use flagging system. Facebook, not so great and dailymotion etc is non-existent.

David Firth

You should be doing a per month Patreon set up. Allow your fans to fund your work, rather than pay for a finished product after you've made it. People here love your content and have loved it for many years, they are here to support you. Per month is a better deal. Don't put your content behind a paywall. Allow your die hard fans to fund you in a more consistent way.

The Minute Hour

I fully agree David it's dumb that Patreon doesn't seeing as I'm sure it hasn't plenty of money to develop a video upload service. Can't wait for the new episode of Salad fingers! Don't worry about the wait I'm sure everybody agree's we'd rather wait then have something thrown together with little effort.

Torin D

I think a trailer is a really good idea for getting some exposure, but one issue I foresee is that no matter what website you use to host the video, someone is going to either download or record the episode and put it up on Youtube regardless. I can't imagine the Youtube flagging system working for you rather than against you in such a case. I wonder if any video hosting websites exist specifically to protect against that?

Snekguy

Would something like VHX work here? I'm subscribed to a slowly released episodic documentary there, and I think I only paid once. The question is if you can add users by default, us patreoids here.

autumn foreignbody

I think using an unlisted video is a good way to go about this. Even if some people share the link with friends, its not gonna reach a big mass of people. And if it did you could always reupload it under a different adress - if it keeps happening a lot right after release, you can just go back to the point you are at now. Imo its worth a try, I dont see a kind of platform somebody would put the link to immediately give it to "everyone", and I dont see a reason for anybody to do it either really.

I like your music

Hi there, I'm a web developer and you sure can post a video on your own website and protect it. The only issue you have is hosting it... If its a big video and 1500 people view it at once that's a hell of a lot of bandwidth. So you could host it privately on Vimeo and run it from there but the front end of it it within your site... I'd be happy to help out with any technical things if you need it.

Nick Kind

So excited for this new episode! What about your connection to brainfeeder? Don't they have a streaming service or something like where Kuso is on?

Odin Jurray

If there's anyway that we, as your patrons, could help get the word out don't give it a second-thought. Your work needs the recognition it deserves.

Josiah and Jacob Martin

Yes, a trailer on Youtube would at least notify (10% of) the subscribers, however Youtube's algorithm would certainly not favour a video that suggests you leave their website so it'd be unlikely to reach the "recommended" tab. Also I have 400,000 facebook followers and twitter etc. I'd get the word out there. I could put a note on the end of the existing episodes, but the bigger point for me is that for that past 15 years I've been obsessed with the numbers and exposure but it means nothing. I recently posted a couple of episodes on Facebook and it said I had something like 300,000 views in the first week - then a detailed breakdown of it revealed that something like only 10% of those viewers watched more than 3 seconds! Views mean nothing. It's just a number. I have a gif with nearly 100 million views. Nobody ever emailed me about it. I wouldn't even have known if I didn't have the giphy statistics.

David Firth

As for where to put the video for patrons... Is there any way to host it on your own site? I'm not sure if there could be a VIP/ patron only part of it with all of your content there. Just a thought

Scott

It's a shame it's had to come to this. YouTube has really shot itself when it comes to creators and it seems to be only getting worse. I think vimeo on demand isn't a bad idea, at least you'd be getting something for it from fans, but many people would miss out on it I guess. Weighing up pros and cons is not something I'd like to do.

Scott

That's rough, mate. I'm sorry to hear YouTube is still being a complete pain in the ass. Ultimately, it'll be to their own detriment as creators like yourself turn away. I'm in favour of closed Patreon-type support systems and I'd much prefer to support you directly than give conglomerates like Alphabet Inc. any more control than they already have. Also, I agree that Patreon should have a closed system for uploads / downloads and it's a bit odd that it doesn't. What ever the case, you do what you feel is right - and I'm supportive of telling YouTube to sod off.

Andrew Raff

Tweet about it? Let people follow the link to vimeo. And isnt there any sort of see once and destroy kind of service for videos, so patreon members can see it first.

Zubayr Hossain

Post a trailer or preview on youtube, maybe?

_nderscore

How do you plan on making it publicly known that the new Salad Fingers is available on Vimeo-on-demand? I would hate to see it get half the recognition it deserves simply due to the fact your wide-spread audience doesn't know about it.

Josiah and Jacob Martin

I think thats a good idea. Its a fair assessment and youtube is really not a good platform for creators

CTMH