Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 7x11 || Discussion

I loathe her character because she immediately comes off entitled without earning it. She is entitled to respect, leadership, choice of room, willow without any buildup. She doesn’t earn it from the audience or the other characters. From the audience perspective she is poorly written. From the other character perspective she is a rich pretty privilege spoil brat who always gets her way.

Sun

Except they didn't contradict it in the show at all. No one has killed Faith to activate a new Chosen One. She's in prison, so we would have heard about it if that happened. And it was put in the show enough for many of us to already come to the correct conclusion that she already confirmed. Her answer makes ALL the sense in the world.

Fuiono Ching Sung

And yet she had the opportunity to put it in the show to make it canon, but didn't. And then they contradict it in the show.

Stargazer1682

Guess it's a good thing then that the show had only just finished season 5 when Marti Noxon clarified why they didn't just kill Buffy and revive her with CPR to create an army of new Slayers. Because the Slayer line went through Faith, not Buffy. And that they would have to kill Faith for there to be a new Slayer. That is pretty cut and dry, and not fanfiction, since she made it pretty clear well before the end of the show.

Fuiono Ching Sung

Because Faith didn't die. Humans may have a loose definition of death, that doesn't mean the universe does, especially in a world where things like heaven and souls and quantifiable consciousness are actual, confirmed things. You keep accusing me of inserting ideas into the show, when every argument you try to make does exactly that. Anything outside of what was explicitly stated within the actual shows, especially anything that contradicts something in the show and outside of reasonable inference, is conjecture. It doesn't matter if you're a viewer, a writer or even the creator. It's similar to the way JK Rowling tries to add or change things about Harry Potter after the fact. Oh, you think Harry and Hermione should have ended up together? That's nice. Oh well. I read something that someone else put it very succinctly on the concept as a whole, which amounted to - if you're a writer, you have the opportunity to make whatever you like canon within the story you're writing, while you're creating the narrative. Once you conclude it though and put it out to the masses, that's it; you can't go back and make revisions or make declarative statements that aren't in the text. If something isn't clear or you changed your mind about something, you missed your shot. Anything after the narrative officially ended is just fan fiction.

Stargazer1682

Except if the First were able to manifest as a LIVING Slayer, why wouldn't the First have appeared as Faith all that time before she returned to Sunnydale? Why has the First ONLY ever appeared in the form of someone who has died? There's EVERY indication that the First was able to appear in the form of Buffy prior to her death in season 5. The fact that she died at the end of Season 1 for one thing. And yes, she died for 2 mins at the end of season 1. That was long enough to activate Kendra, and it was long enough for the First to be able to assume her form. The fact that it didn't during the one episode it was featured in prior to season 7 doesn't mean that it couldn't. The show literally told us it could. You saying it didn't doesn't change that fact. Buffy died. The First can take the form of anyone who died. Do you not really not see that logic? ALSO: The following question was asked to Marti Noxon in an interview after season 5 ended, and she responded: "Why don't they just kill Buffy repeatedly, and get a band of Slayers?" "Hopefully this will be the last time we kill her. The line runs through Faith. If you want a new Slayer you'll have to kill Faith." ONE OF THE SHOW'S MAIN WRITERS LITERALLY SAID THE LINE RUNS THROUGH FAITH. Meaning as of the time of this exchange (after season 5 and before season 6), if the writers wanted to add a new Slayer, Faith would have had to die. And she did not. HERE ENDETH THE LESSON.

Fuiono Ching Sung

Henrik Holst, it's anyone's guess, really. The season does seem to be a little all over the place with some of these plot details. It's true, assuming the spell Willow does in "Potential" is a common spell or easily performed. But that seems like a big potential plot fault, pardon the pun. If it were that easy, someone should have likely done it by now and done in the Slayer line long ago. Now, mind you, there's a bunch of Potentials being pulled in now that weren't previously identified or at least, didn't already have Watchers. Based on what we've seen, I would conjecture the Watchers have a way or gauging the potential of a Potential to be the next Slayer, and they pull essentially the cream of the crop, establishing a pool of Potentials that would stack the odds in their favor that they have the next and subsequent Slayer in their ranks, with a Watcher and everything. There are further implications to that, such as the likelihood that they would have regularly added to that pool, probably annually; and as Kennedy alluded to, there's at least the possibility that a Potential loses her potential over time; which stands to reason, if they're regularly bringing in new Potentials, they're probably..."discarding" older Potentials. Given how the Council treated the actual Slayer, this doesn't sound like a good outcome for the Potentials who end up being of no use to the Council. So far as the security of the Potential lines goes, it's possible the Council had protections in place, and the destruction of the Council brought those measures down. And if all Potentials aren't created equal, there may be something more needed to get a clearer read of a Potential and the degree of their potential. Maybe even access to the Slayer herself. which only the Council would have access to. That's why my theory is that the First just being able to manifest as Buffy now, which is to say, to be a LIVIGN Slayer creates a link to the Slayer powers it ostensibly didn't have before. There's no indication the First could manifest as Buffy prior to her death in season 5. Her so-called season 1 death not withstanding, since her soul presumably didn't leave her body and was brought back by simple, non-magical means.

Stargazer1682

The only problem with this theory is that Buffy being called as The Slayer without the Watchers knowing of her as a potential beforehand was an anomaly. Which of course is not saying that another anomaly cannot happen. My main issue with the lore is the fact that they have a ways of identifying the potentials, if they can then so should evil already be able to do (and not having to wait for the disturbance in the force) and thus could kill off all the potentials long before S7.

Henrik Holst

Once again, that would require him knowing. I've already covered that in my reply above.... It's not a stretch, it's basic logic. It's the underlying basis of how the Slayer powers work. As of the latest episode Alley has watched, there are now at least three mentions of a new Slayer being called when Buffy dies. The Mayor mentioned it in Enemies. Dawn and Buffy both mention is in Potential. Buffy says, "My death could make you the next slayer."

Stargazer1682

Except Quentin Travers would have mentioned the fact that another Slayer exists when he made his speech to the Council about the First officially launching its attack against their establishment. He has ONLY ever mentioned Buffy and Faith. You are making QUITE a stretch to imply that another Slayer exists in the world without the Council ever having mentioned it once to anyone. I'm sorry, but that just isn't canon at all.

Fuiono Ching Sung

“I’m the thing that monsters have nightmares about” I loooove this quote so much I have a picture of my baby in a onesie that says this 😂

Mary Kate

That's fair. Except Vi, right?

Stargazer1682

Eh. Y’all are so busy dragging up 20 year old fandom bs, you missed that wonderful callback to Season 1 & the Master.

Rio de Tanana

Reading all these comments about people and their feelings on specific potentials and I just want to state for the record that I hate them all equally :^)

Milan W.

No, it's possible to be ambivalent. I could take or leave Riley, for example; especially the more I re-watch the series. Riley's a rather different character in season 4 and the writers didn't seem to know what to do with him in season 5; plus I get the impression they decided pretty early on in season 5 to write him off, and that decision bled into how they wrote him moving forward, as if it were already a done deal. The crap with the vamp-tramps seems just like bad writing, to make him out to be more of a bad guy ahead of the break-up; because heaven forbid there be no one at fault when a relationship ends. There's more to it, but for where we are right now, Kennedy's just too aggressive. And there's something about the condescending way she talked to Willow about magic and asking her to do a "magic trick" that rubs me the wrong way.

Stargazer1682

That's predicated on them knowing the hypothetical Third Slayer exists or that they'd freely share that knowledge if they did. Even when the Council knew about Kendra, at that time when Giles was still working for the Council and would have reported Buffy's experience; and ostensibly the Council themselves would have known about the coexistence of both Kendra and Buffy as active Slayers, they still chose not to tell Giles - or for that matter, didn't tell Kendra's Watcher, seeing as Kendra had no idea of a Slayer being active in Sunnydale before sending her there. Even Faith wasn't sent to Sunnydale; she ran away there after her Watcher was murdered by Kakistos. With Buffy's latest death, the Scoobies kept that fact secret from the world, so that the forces of evil would believe the Slayer was still active in Sunnydale. Given the tenuous relationship with the Council, there's no reason to think they would have shared that information with them either. Without knowing a Slayer had been killed, the Council would have no reason to look for a new one; assuming she was even among the pool of Potentials the Council had under the care of a Watcher. If she were an unidentified Potential, like Buffy, she could be anywhere in the world, with no knowledge of vampires or the supernatural. Given that Buffy didn't realize she had super powers when she was first called, the hypothetical Third Slayer would not necessarily realize it herself.

Stargazer1682

The existence of another Slayer besides Faith and Buffy would have been brought up at this point. But since Giles only states that the First’s plan was to destroy the Potential Slayer line, then destroy the actual Slayers themselves - Faith and Buffy, I don’t see where there is any room for assumption that another Slayer was ever activated.

Fuiono Ching Sung

Also, once again - and this is contentious, but logical - at no point in the series up to this episode have they said Buffy has not called another Slayer since season 1, or that she couldn't. In fact, the opposite has been said at least once prior to this episode. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence. For example, we only saw Buffy dream about two Potentials being killed by Bringers, but that doesn't mean there aren't more just because we didn't see them. We can infer the First killed a bunch of others based on the known facts, without contradiction or reason to doubt it.

Stargazer1682

I'm shocked that you didn't notice (I also don't see anyone mentioning it in comments) that "Lizzie McGuire's" best friend Miranda plays the potential slayer Chloe. This would have originally aired while Lizzie McGuire was still on air on Disney- which I think is interesting. Maybe most people don't care but I was a big Hilary Duff fan so 😂

Amanda Huey

I have no problem with Kennedy. At least she has a distinctive personality, which is more than I can say for the other potentials who sometimes seem like a mess of bad accents. And as for Rona the moaner...

Robin Davies

I am just going to put it out there that I quite like Kennedy. I think she gets a lot of hate for the same reason Bangal shippers hated Riley when they first saw him at the beginning of season 4, and that is he was perceived as trying to take Angels place. In the same way there was a lot of love for Tara in the fandom and no one wants to see Willow move on. However I always see it from Kennedy s point of view which is she might be dead tomorrow so she lives for the now.

Lee Wilcock

I don't like people mentioning the dislike for Kennedy in the fandom because I don't want it to influence your opinion on her. If you like her, you like her. But to counteract the negative comments, I'd just like to say that I love Kennedy and I loved her throughout any episodes she appears in. She's confident and bad ass and I genuinely think people dislike her just because they can't get over Tara. I loved Tara, but I also loved Kennedy. I equate the Kennedy hate also to the Dawn hate. People find them annoying, but since you don't find Dawn annoying I have hope that your like for Kennedy's character will stay.

s

Kennedy is a bit of a divisive figure in the fandom, a lot of people can't stand the character (including me), others really like her or are indifferent, neither completely loving nor hating her. At some point I will be able to fully articulate why I have loathed Kennedy as a character right from the start, or more specifically loathed how she is written as a character - and people will be free to agree, disagree, or not hold any opinion at all. It should be the same for those in the fandom who like Kennedy as a character. You just do you, Alley, if you think positively of Kennedy don't let anyone else take that away from you or tell you you're wrong for feeling that way.

Claire Eyles

Alley, I must say that watching you have such a positive reaction towards Kennedy is a breath of fresh air, this character is not well liked among the Buffy fandom, I’ve always loved her, and never understood, nor do I believe deserves the level of hate that she often receives…well actually I do have a pretty good idea why she gets all the hate, but that’s a conversation to be had at a later time. It just rubs me the wrong way whenever I read about a fan saying that they hate…which is a very strong word to use by the way…a certain character like a Dawn or a Kennedy for some petty reason, oh he or she is so annoying, I hate them! Seems to me…or at least, this is the way I’ve come to take it over the years…that with most people in this fandom, they either love a character, or they hate them, there is no in between.

Keenan White

If you listen to Eve, aka The First, she is always saying things to make the potential Slayers doubt whether they'll survive. She doesn't want them to have any hope. It seems the only one it didn't work on, not including the core Scooby gang, was Kennedy, the one staying in Willow's room.

Ron Fehr

Yeah, that's one which was unfortunately influenced by real world stuff. Although I'm sure there could be reasoning if you wanted to invent something.