Angel || 4x05 || Discussion

Look at what happened when Faith killed a human. In the Buffyverse it's generally something which at least fundamentally affects a person.

I loved the many references that the episode had to other episodes in the series. When Holden and Buffy are talking about vampires/slayers as "nemeses," and Buffy says, "Is that how you say it?" it's a reference to how Warren/Buffy mispronounced it during last season as nemesis-is-es. Dawn calling out to Joyce, "Mom? Mom? Mommy?" echoed what Buffy said when she came home to see Joyce's body. Then there's the "strong like an Amazon" line that Cassie says, the same thing that Tara says during "The Body."

Yeah, while they don't tell us his actual age in the show to my knowledge even if he is technically 18 when the romance starts (which is itself a relatively arbitrary number, since age of consent varies worldwide), Connor himself is a deeply immature character. Cordy may be not that much older than him in years, but she is decades older in experience and is cast via her association with Angel as part of the older generation. The legal age of the participants is only one factor in respective maturity levels. And then he looks like a young teen while she looks like a matron. Plus we the viewers, who have had 3 full seasons of Cordelia growing and maturing, can't just throw her character away just because she has amnesia. We know that a Cordy with her memories would not be kissing Connor, we know she is a full adult and he is still in many ways a boy, and so it feels like a violation of her free will. I don't think either she or Connor needs to be censured for bad behavior (well, maybe a little bit Connor with his manipulations via the photos and not caring about her memory loss, but he's again incredibly immature and socially inept) but I think there is something really gross going on in the writing.

bewildered

I feel like it would've been a lot simpler if they'd just thrown him in the portal alive. Then he'd have gotten what he deserved and no one is technically a murderer. I don't really get Gunn killing him first.

Mary Kate

I understand why he did it, but I believe that killing is never right. Also, nobody has the right to decide who lives and who dies.

Ron Fehr

The Cordy/Connor thing these past couple of episodes is soooo cringy... I know that story-wise Cordy is supposed to be 21, and Connor somewhere in the 17-18 range.. but Charisma Carpenter was 32 when this was filmed, and I'm sorry to say - starting to look like it, which was fine when they paired her with Angel, who was not only played by an actor closer to her age, but was also supposed to be hundreds of years old, so it worked better when we forgot that she was supposed to be fresh out of high school.. But even though Vincent Kartheiser (Connor) was in his 20s when this was filmed, he sure did look like a teenager and that just makes this whole thing extra creepy for me..

Ashtara Levin

I was watching Supernatural very late (not only in my life, but also in terms of the show..) really only getting into it because I was bored during the pandemic's first quarantine months - and I have to say one of the things that bothered me the most, perhaps because I grew up watching shows like Buffy and Angel, that put the proper gravity to the taking of a human life - quite appalled by the amount of bodies Sam and Dean, but especially Dean left at their wake, and that that was deemed not only okay but even commendable at times by the show. I don't think taking a human life should ever be discussed lightly, even within the constraints of a fantasy story, and the fact that so many of the shows today display it with such nonchalant and jadedness is actually something I am pretty worried about. As an Israeli citizen I had to serve in the Army when I turned 18, and while I was non combative, I served alongside fellows who were, and I saw how messed up a person can get after having to pull a trigger on someone. Even within the confines of a war, which one could argue means the killing was "justified" - people couldn't cope with it. It leaves scars on your soul no one should bear. Seeing it displayed for "shock value" or worse - as "a necessary evil", as it was portrayed in SPN towards the end, really sickens me.

Ashtara Levin

I love that that's the ship name Very appropriate, because that's exactly where the ship should go sit and think about what it's done!!!

Jamie Morgan

I'm a few days late on this, but this is how I view the whole Fred/Gunn thing in this episode, if anyone cares. I think what Gunn did was, in his own mind, a way to protect Fred. He thought that by killing the professor, he was stopping her from having to live with it, and I think the reason he snaps his neck first is so that the professor wouldn't have to "suffer". That's how I view his actions anyway. Whether he's right or wrong about doing it this way is a totally other thing that I'm not going to comment on.

Dana

Neither Gun nor Fred thought the other was capable of taking a life, they both put each other on the pedestal and are now realising how little they understood each other.

Chris Hanley

I feel like Spike trolls the Angel chat rooms, but like, has also written some very popular Angel/Xander slash fiction, that started out as a joke - especially since no one would know who the hell Xander is.

Stargazer1682

She'll come around, they all do. I mean, who could resist that... chemistry....

Stargazer1682

That's not the point of discussion. Gunn did it to stop Fred from doing it; and Alley's contention is that Gunn should have let Fred doing because it was Fred's trauma and the guy deserved to die either way.

Stargazer1682

It's simple. He was in the wrong because he killed someone. Killing is never right.

Ron Fehr

I think Gunn's concern is a pragmatic one, It's one thing to determine that someone has acted so heinously as to deserve death or even take some comfort in knowing such a person has died, that it's over and they got what they deserved; but it's another to execute the punishment and live with that knowledge. That's a step you can't take back and it may not necessarily "give you a taste" for killing, like they suggested with Faith, You can objectively know it was the "right thing" to do, and still be affected by the act itself. There are legitimate instances where killing someone might be lawfully or even ethically justifiable, but that doesn't preclude that from causing psychological or emotional trauma or even result in guilt. This is seen all the time with soldiers who have fought in war experiencing PTSD. You don't even have to kill someone to experienced that, but it can definitely take a toll; regardless of whether the person deserves it. For Fred, that would compound the original trauma of being sent to Pylea; and Gunn was afraid of losing her to all of those things. Whether or not he was in the wrong from taking that agency or decision away from her; or if he even spared her any of the trauma, remain s to be seen.

Stargazer1682

If you ever want more of Amy Acker as an intellectual badass, check out Person of Interest.

Cameron Lapp

I love this episode it is for sure my favourite of the season so far even though it is very heartbreaking I love how they have continued to deal with Fred's trauma from Pylea and didn't just pretend it never happened once she was saved but :( also I can understand why Gunn did what he did. I forgot this episode is also the one where Connor and Cordelia kiss this explains why it is not one I rewatch all that often because ick that is the only way I can explain that one

Stacey

What?! You're not a Corner shipper? 😂

Calvin Allen

"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?" Words cannot explain how much I laughed my ass off.

Ryan Martinez