Angel || 3x11 || Discussion
Added 2022-06-25 20:15:59 +0000 UTC3x11: "Birthday"
Next: Buffy 6x12 on Wed 6/29
ITS CORDY'S BIRTHDAYYY.. what a more fitting way for her to celebrate than to slip into a coma or whatever the heck and talk to a demon about how her life coulda been <3
I LOVEEEE episodes with the " what if-" type plot line and showing us how Cordy's life coulda gone :') I just love her so much, so getting a whole episode dedicated to her?? YESSS PLEASE
side note: I neeeed to see her little sitcom she made in the other timeline, bc it looks adorable :')
anyhoooo, uh yeah there is a big plot point in this episode and I am uh.... yeah, I am very curious to see the effects of her decision later on. I think it could make for a super cool addition into the storyline :)
okee, hope yall enjoyyy! :D
Comments
I love the way it was her choice, and that she didn't get that choice until getting her dream life and choosing to give it up. We already know how the Powers have no desire to help humans or change things. They only brought her there because a human getting the visions was a "mistake". The "you could just be half demon" thing didn't come up until she proved she deserved it. I think the way Skip said "it was an honor guiding you" shows that. Her choices were to die or get out of their (the Powers) way because they can't have a human with the visions. Then she comes along and proves that she's worthy of it and they are willing to provide another option. To me, it's brilliant decision making. Sure, there's plot holes, like becoming a two-time emmy winner in 3 years without any experience or connections. But, big deal... little holes like that are worth it to me to get the opening credits to "Cordy".
Whitney Nottage
2022-07-11 11:59:50 +0000 UTCI liked this episode but I think the show fudged the timeline a lot. Cordelia is 21 as of this episode (though Charisma Carpenter looks and acts far older) and only got her first break at the age of 18 with no known experience of acting or comedy beforehand and no family connections in the business. I mean I guess I can see her being an overnight success but, really two Emmy awards and a show entirely built around her in under three years? I remember the show did the same thing with Doyle in his backstory trying to cram in life experiences more suited to someone in his thirties than in his twenties.
Ross Nolan
2022-06-28 22:21:08 +0000 UTCAt first, the agency relied on the visions to get business and perhaps make a name for itself. If the group doesn't rely as much on the visions anymore, Cordelia needs to find another way to be useful. Perhaps she was trying to get the best of both. She could keep the visions to locate trouble, but now she would also have a new way to help out.
Ron Fehr
2022-06-27 01:25:26 +0000 UTCIn what way does that scenario take away any of her agency? Especially in contrast to the actual episode, where all of her choices turned out to not be much of a choice at all. Sure, Skip offers her an alternate life, but it wasn't a true alteration of the timeline, the way The Wish was. Otherwise she wouldn't have had any instinct to go to the Hyperion and there definitely wouldn't be an address behind the wallpaper, because she never would have taken possession of Angel to write it. The whole arc of her alternate life was just one big contrivance leading her back to taking on the visions; which means it was never really a choice. That left two alternatives, accept that she was going to die, or accept an offer to be turned into a part demon. Choosing to become part demon rather than dying isn't much of a choice; even if some aspect of it is altruistic, because she wants to be able to help people; the conceit is still that alternative was death. Where's the agency in that? If it turned out that Cordelia was biologically part demon all along and it was only just manifesting now, it would be nothing more than a plot convenience to skirt an otherwise unavoidable alternative. It may mean she doesn't have a choice in the discovery of a certain facet of her biology, but then who among us does? Doyle didn't have a choice in discovering he was part demon, and right up to the end he still struggled with accepting that part of himself. Cordy making that discovery about her own true nature could have been a way to explore themes of identity that they presumably would have explored with Doyle had they been able to keep Glenn Quinn around. But for all of that, why wasn't one of the so-called choices she was given to simply give up the visions in main reality? The idea that Cordelia feels her only contribution of value to the group is the visions is not a new concept; they've shown her to have that insecurity for a long time now. And arguably her choosing to become part demon in order to keep the visions just feeds into that insecurity. Sure, she's agreeing to become part demon because it means continuing to use the visions to help people - but the core conceit is that she believes the only way she can help anyone is with the visions, which is not only a narrow point of view, but gives Cordelia a very low opinion about who she is outside of being "vision girl". If anything takes away her agency, it's the writers/Skip not giving her the choice to live without the visions and prove that they weren't what gave her her worth; by continuing to help people and kick evil's ass without them.
Stargazer1682
2022-06-27 01:02:08 +0000 UTCI see a lot of people talking about Cordy being naturally part-demon, and I just don't understand how that would be better. That takes away ALL of her agency. Sacrificing her other life, keeping the visions and becoming part-demon is her choice, and that's what's so powerful about that moment.
Jamie Morgan
2022-06-27 00:28:14 +0000 UTCThis episode tries to do two different plots, but doesn't allow enough time to flesh either out; and marrying the two premises - the visions killing Cordelia and the What-If story - creates some plot holes. What might have been a fun plot development is, if they stuck with the Cordelia-separated-from-her-body plot, and maybe even Skip telling her that a human can't have the visions and live; only for her to discover in this episode that she actually was part demon, and that side of her was only just now manifesting. Cordelia was turning 20 in this episode, Doyle said his demon side didn't manifest until he was 21. So they could have built this episode around Cordelia making piece with the decisions that lead to her receiving the visions, with the anticipation that she was going to die, then Cordelia has a moment of intuition where the pieces of her come together and she takes possession of her body again; and maybe we see a demon visage.
Stargazer1682
2022-06-26 20:32:32 +0000 UTCI can't get into my own theories, because of spoilers, but I agree with everything you say - yeah, they've been *kind of* building the pain of the visions taking more and more of a toll, but it definitely feels like a copout to present the full scope of the stakes and then just wash their hands of it, and in a pretty contrived way. Like, if the conceit was that Cordelia was in a whole new timeline, then there's no reason for her to think to go to the Hyperion, and the address definitely shouldn't have been on the wall. And just the fact that Angel fared worst than Doyle (or arguably Cordelia, since sure, the visions were killing her, but they weren't driving her insane) they under mine every premise they set up in the episode. They seemed to want to do two different plots: Cordelia is a ghost trying to communicate with her friends while under the clock to help rescue the person from her visions; and a "It's a Wonderful Life"/"The Wish" what-if story. but in trying to do both, they didn't have time to properly to do either; and created some plot holes in trying to marry the two.
Stargazer1682
2022-06-26 20:26:33 +0000 UTCI feel like I knew this and then forgot until I read this. Even watching the reaction it didn't click, and I had to go back and cue it up to her scene. Damn, I see it now, but she looks like such a baby in this episode, it's no wonder I missed it.
Stargazer1682
2022-06-26 20:16:21 +0000 UTCThe Powers That Be were the ones who made Cordelia part demon, so maybe they found some way to make the visions less painful (or non-existent) for the recipient. Just a theory. I don't know how plausible that would be.
Ron Fehr
2022-06-26 19:43:04 +0000 UTCI suppose a few questions would arise concerning this alternate universe. How would some of the events have unfolded without Cordy there?
Ron Fehr
2022-06-26 19:37:33 +0000 UTCWho says Buffy's the only one who gets birthday parties? Lol 😄 Happy Birthday Cordy!
Ron Fehr
2022-06-26 19:34:05 +0000 UTCi read the alternate universe as 'doyle fell in love with angel instead' and honestly love that for them
BOO
2022-06-26 06:42:16 +0000 UTCAlso, welcome to the second half of Angel. This episode is the halfway point of the series. Number 55 of 110
Ray D
2022-06-26 06:09:10 +0000 UTCI love alternate timelines, I love Cordy, and I love this episode. The growth of Cordy is amazing and one of my favorite character arcs. She hasn’t changed so much that it feels like a totally different character, she still feels like the same Cordy that we met in Buffy, just with much more life experience and growth. Great stuff
Ray D
2022-06-26 06:07:22 +0000 UTCNot to mention Jamie Batista in Dexter. I hadn't seen either the last time I watched this episode, so it was a bit of a shock.
Dave Miller
2022-06-26 05:35:14 +0000 UTC"Maybe I'm a little attracted." --Doyle, re: Angel, 1x04 :D
ghostofdurruti
2022-06-26 04:12:46 +0000 UTCSo the big question is, did Doyle smooch Angel to pass along the visions? But what I'm really curious about is how the paranoia or whatever it was demon was exorcised from the Hyperion. I guess maybe Wes and Gunn did it, whether sent by Angel despite his crazy haze or on their own, or hired.
Loves Bitca
2022-06-26 03:40:16 +0000 UTCAmazing how you watch a show that ran 20 years ago and you see an actor you forgot was in... like Aimée Garcia (Cynthia) who plays Ella in Lucifer.
Oxmustube
2022-06-26 03:37:37 +0000 UTCIn the context of this episode alone; Cordelia becoming part demon to be able to better handle the visions feels to me like a cop-out from a writing perspective. (If this were season six of BtVS I’d say it feels like someone choosing to take a shortcut in life). Both Doyle and Angel were shown to struggle with the visions and are also both part demon. I would’ve preferred they didn’t introduce the whole brain damage thing at all (just to wipe it away within the same episode), but since they did - and I wouldn’t have wanted this to happen either - I would’ve preferred the writer’s to stick to their convictions and leave it at two choices; either you never helped Angel and you never will, but you’re famous and will live a long life or you helped him for more than two years, it took its toll and now unfortunately you have to die knowing you lived a life of purpose, that you were loved and you will be missed. Again, I’m glad Cordy didn’t die, but in my opinion that would’ve been a better version of the story they were setting up. (The other option of course would’ve been for Skip to give her the choice between fame and becoming a demon right from the outset. I think that could’ve played out at least as well as the episode as it currently exists). Oh well. What’s done is done. Can’t wait to see where it goes from here.
tc3
2022-06-26 02:30:50 +0000 UTC
