Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 6x10 || Discussion

It’s simple, Buffy isn’t in love with Spike the way shippers want.

Rio de Tanana

She does have some feelings for him. Maybe not love, but definitely some feelings there. I can't prove this without spoilers though.

Terri

Spike may make us question the theory that the soul is connected to the heart. I don't think there's any question that vampires can love, and that Spike love's Buffy. But the sould is very much linked to the conscience. If he didn't have the chip, he'd still be killing, even if he loved her. Serial killers are capable of love but we all know Buffy would never want to be with one. And a serial killer stuck in jail doesn't mean they're not still a serial killer.

Whitney Nottage

She definitely does NOT love Spike. None of her actions here show that she does, she is basically using him to escape from her reality and from everyone else. As much as I ship Spuffy it's quite obvious here.

ahmad

I slightly disagree. I think she does love Spike, more than she ever loved Riley, and she hates herself for that. As she once said in Pangs, I like my evil like I like my men, evil.

Richard Lucas

If it had Spike, she would have been throwing Willow a party lol

Richard Lucas

I think Buffy simply doesn't love him. It has nothing to do with him being a vampire. She cares for him and has feelings for him because they understand each other on a level that others (people who don't have so much violence in their lives) can't understand. But Buffy just doesn't love him.

D

Well, magic is power, and power consumes and is addictive and abused. So it's not a big leap for me. They're abandoning all subtext this season, so I'm not surprised that they're showing it so literally.

SpikesEcho

I think Buffy's actions towards Willow were probably just because it was Dawn, her sister and only family, who was hurt. I don't know if it would have been the same for anyone else. Just my opinion.

Ron Fehr

From first viewing and on each subsequent, I found the sharp two-episode pivot into "Magic is Actually Droogz" to be stilted and hamfisted. Compared to it just being a flaw in Willow's personality and ego to deal with, her being content to rely on her power, on taking license from it, I think going the Saved-By-The-Bell-Diet-Pills approach was a major downgrade. Not much else to say about this episode. I did like how assertive Buffy was with Willow after the crash - that "get up" always startles people the first time they hear it.

Dan H

Just wanna disclaimer that this is a totally valid opinion to have. The whole magic as drugs thing is flat out not for everyone and I totally get why. In my eyes, if magic existed in the real world, this is 100% how it would be treated. The first thing people would do is use it to get high and to abuse others. Drugs/addiction is just one of a plethora of things that magic is a metaphor for in the Buffyverse, and I can personally compartmentalize them pretty easily, though I understand anyone that has difficulty doing that when the portrayal in this ep is so damn overt. It just feels like a logical conclusion to this type of power to me. A person's positive inner qualities can be subsumed and even fuel addiction, just as the positive things magic represents can be transfigured and corrupted when not treated with care and respect. Also we saw Amy exactly one time in season 3, and she had maybe a handful of lines before turning herself into a rat. Lots of people begin their addiction as teens when their brains havent fully developed, and it is not always obvious just by looking at them what they are going through. And Rack seems sleazy enough to not have a problem doing this to underage girls.

KT

I think it's more her behavior and her using/abusing him that weighs on her good conscience. She technically can't in good conscience leave Dawn or her mom in a serial killers care, or socialize with a serial killer, or work with a serial killer, or lean on a serial killer, or open up to a serial killer, or connect with a serial killer, or let a serial killer live for that matter. So your point is fairly moot (but not totally invalid).

SpikesEcho

Omg that’s really disturbing I’ve never thought about that😂😂😂

Marty

Spike being a vampire is not the reason Buffy is disgusted with herself for sleeping with him. It's because HE'S EVIL. He is a serial killer. I know others have said this, but I wanted to put it into my own words, because, Alley, it kind of feels like you forgot that Buffy cannot in good conscience be in a sexual relationship with a serial killer.

UTU49

This is definitely my least favourite episode of S6, and one of only three episodes I consider downright 'bad'. Before this episode, magic was just that... magic. Sure Willow was relying on it for everything to the point she was wiping her own girlfriend's memory so she didn't have to have an argument (don't get me wrong... that is pretty bad) but it was still magic. But now, let's get rid of any subtext because MAGIC IS DRUGS. We've got magic highs and magic burnout and magic junkies and magic dealers and magic jonesing and magic sweats and magic shower crying and even magic freakin' crackhouses. And you're telling me that Amy was visiting Rack while she was still in high school and never showed any indication of it?! I'm much more interested in Buffy's self-destruct route at this point as she is clearly at a massive low right now.

I've brought that up before....shouldn't we be devoting more discussion to Buffy's sexual fetish for reanimated corpses!?! lol

SpikesEcho

Stargazer - You'd have to listen to the breakdown of the stories by story experts on Still Pretty to understand the really inconsistent and muddled things going on in the writing when it comes to Buffy and Spikes sexual relationship, and how that's being treated. This current iteration of Buffy and Spike and "romantic wish fulfillment" don't belong in the same sentence, as most all seasoned fans feel lol, but I guess you bring it up anyway cause of Alley's newbie shipping glasses? I know you also feel strongly about Buffy and Spike having absolutely no chemistry/romantic foundation - if you went back to season 2 Still Pretty podcasts and followed along by episode as they discuss the writing and stories, you might finally pick up on what other fans do throughout the seasons pertaining to that lol. I'm curious actually if it'd finally click for you/you'd get it, or if you'd continue to strongly disagree. For your second through fourth paragraph, it's all much more complicated than that paraphrasing, which is a little.....surfacy....of a read, when the writing and character's have actually been given some juicy, complicated layers. I disagree overall on your take on Buffy's sexuality and sexual expression with Spike during this time (can't argue why without getting into next season stuff), but you're also essentially doubling down on the messaging I take issue with (ie this sex is bad sex, this sex is wrong sex). Your take/interpretation feels a bit of a headcanon-y spin on things actually.

SpikesEcho

Broken record time, after a fashion - this may be my least favorite episode of Season 6. That's mainly to do with Willow's story. Aside from Giles commenting about the one spell he did in his Ripper days producing a "remarkable high" we have not had any parallels between magic and drug use up to this point. Willow has never been shown to have any kind of dependency on magic. Before this season magic required much more concentration and intentional casting, but now she's suddenly Sabrina the fickin' Teenage Witch and Q rolled into one. And no one makes any distinction between a practical use of magic and ethical abuses of magic; not even her partner, the other witch.... Like, if you can do a spell that makes party favors or closes the curtains without sacrificing a virgin, fucking do it. Who cares? Regular old humans are constant inventing ways of to make life lazier, but we're not addicted to our cars or to electricity or automation in general. Use that shit to fix the plumbing and the rest of the house. If Tara had helped to make sure Willow didn't cut corners, it probably would be fine. Then this episode comes along and further upends the concept and makes the so called analogy even more hamfisted; because now we're visiting Rack to get a fix. A fix of what? "mAgIcS". You know, some of those sweet, sweet ambiguous spells, that do nothing in particular, but feel amazing; just like Willow's been doing this whole time.... Only, the opposite of that statement... And just like that, it has nothing to do with Tara's agency being stripped or Willow disregarding the consent of anyone she might affect with her use of magic. Nope, it's just how Willow's always getting blissed out on her mystical sparkle stuff.... 🙄

Stargazer1682

I wouldn't say the writers are being inconsistent with regards to Buffy and Spike. I do think at least some fans read into things too much or make assumptions about character motivations that aren't actually there; which then runs afoul of what the writers DO write that contradicts this idealized version of the story where Spike and Buffy are enacting some sort of romantic wish fulfillment. Buffy is conflicted, but it's not about whether or not she wants Spike; it's more her own personal struggles and what it means for her to be an adult, living this life, to say nothing of having died, gone to heaven and been thrown back into all of this. She says (sang) it herself - "this isn't real, but I just want to feel". That's really the extent of Spike's appeal to her. She even says it in this episode, he's convenient. He can hurt her, physically, emotionally, and arguably on some level Buffy feels like this justifies how she's been feeling. If she can't feel happy, then she might as well feel SOMETHING; and maybe by letting Spike hurt her will make the times in between feel less bad by comparison, which for someone in the right (or wrong) state of mind is tantamount to happiness through degrees of variation. As for the sex and presumably any physical pleasure she may or may not derive from that - she doesn't have to be in love with Spike or have any strong feelings about him to reach orgasm. If anything, being brought to climax by someone you loath will arguably contribute more to her depressive state; especially with scenes like in this episode when Buffy is saying no Spike just says, "Make me" and doesn't stop him. That doesn't mean she "wanted it," she said stop. That anything almost continued after that, or that Buffy might have felt any sense of pleasure is undermined by the fact that she said "stop," and "no" and was pushing him away immediately before that. For someone like Buffy, in her present emotional and psychological state, a moment of like that will not only be confusing, but to feel any sort of physical response to what Spike was doing, much less climax as a result of that, is going to compound that confusion; and arguably make her feel worse. That's when it becomes cyclical, because she sleeps with Spike because she feels bad, but sleeping with Spike makes her feel worse. And Spike's not blameless in any of this, nor is he an idiot. He knows full well where Buffy's head is at, and is not only trying to convince her that this really what she wants, despite all protestations; he's trying to get into her head, gaslighting with statements like, "I'm the only on here for you! You've got no one else!"

Stargazer1682

Here's a question I've sometimes wondered, but I rarely if ever see brought up - does Buffy's penchant for sleeping with the undead make her a necrophiliac?

Stargazer1682

I suppose that I felt the same way, but I just didn't know how to put it into words. It makes sense that Buffy trusts Spike with certain things, knowing how she feels about her. Also her post-coiltal reaction to what they did brought her back to reality, and she knew she made a bad decision.

Ron Fehr

Well, yes buffy is the heroine, but she does have flows, she tends to be a little judgmental, every character does, and her perception of what love/sex is supposed to be is definitely one of them and it does bother me, I personally don’t identify with her, even tho she’s one of my favourite characters. I love her, but I don’t look at her as an example, especially regarding this, if anything s6 is the one I relate to her the most because she’s such a mess. But I see what you’re saying. I’m just not sure if the writers want us to agree with her that’s all.

Marty

My opinion on buffy/spike at this point. Buffy does believe that spike loves her. She understands his character enough to know that's real. That is why she trusts him with dawn, and to help her when needed, Because she knows he loves her. She does not love him. At best she lusts after him. Knowing how he feels about her, she knows she can use him for comfort... or as an escape for her reality. And that's what she does, and Because of who she is, she feels guilty about that on a multitude of levels.. 1.Because he is an evil demon with no soul, who has done horrific things with no remorse and also Because she is knowingly using someone who loves her. It's a very complicated situation. And I give credit to the writers for not just giving us the story we wanted. What we get is much more realistic. Spike is a selfish vampire, who will do what he can to get what he wants, not what's best for buffy. And buffy is a traumatised individual, using someone that she doesn't see as human to help herself cope. And we get all the messy shit that goes with it. Love it lol

Greta mudie

Tho kinky sex shouldn't be attached to darkness, like they're making it. And Buffy's portraying shame and judgement (it was disgusting, perverted, etc) for the sexual desires she herself was exploring. And since we're meant to follow her as our heroine, a lot of fans will take-on her feelings towards the kind of sex she's having and also think "it's wrong", like she does. I've struggled to find any sex positive messages in the show, tho they've gotten better as the years have gone on

SpikesEcho

Buffy does have feelings for spike, just my opinion but let’s look at the facts: she trusts him with dawn, when she’s hurt and bleeding, she leaves her with him, a soulless vampire, who feeds off blood and she doesn’t doubt for a second that he would do anything to hurt her, no matter how much she says she doesn’t trust him, or how evil he is and how disgusted she is by him, the facts are right here, she does put a lot of faith in him. They do have a connection, it’s not just a physical relationship they have, buffy relies on him, and they have an emotional bond. The reason she’s so disgusted and treats him so poorly is because she does have feelings for him, an evil creature, the thing she hates and that she’s supposed to kill. She already went through this with angel when she found out he was a vampire, she was scared and confused and upset, now this is pretty much the same, only the inverse, because she already knows spike is a vampire, and she’s developing feelings for him regardless, and she’s going through the same emotions only this time is worst because she doesn’t have anyone to talk to about it because she’s also dissociated from her friends. In “tabula rasa” she instinctively feels a connection with him and when she finds out “Randy” is a vampire, she has the same reaction she had in season 1 in finding out angel was a vampire. Speaking of Angel, since buffy has been brought back we know that she hasn’t been able to feel anything, except with spike. In episode 4 she goes to see angel and the episode after she tells spike while she’s drunk that HE is the only person she can stand to be around, and in OMWF she sings how she’s going through the motions and she wants the fire back and before kissing spike she sings “this isn’t real, but I just want to feel”, so basically she admits that not even seeing angel made her feel anything, I assume, and spike is literally THE ONLY one who can makes her feel something. In season 5, she says to Riley “if i wanted someone with superpowers then I’d be dating spike”, and in “Intervention” she kisses him!! as a thank you. Now this kiss, sure it was to show him gratitude, but she DIDNT have to kiss him on the lips, she could have kissed him on the cheek, or whatever, or simply just say thank you, but she CHOSE to kiss him, I don’t think she would have kissed Giles, or Xander like that, so that’s also very telling.

Marty

Completely agree, although I don’t think the message is that kinky sex is wrong, I just think that it is for buffy the character, the way I see her character before season 6, she’s been a little vanilla, sure she’s the slayer and she likes violence, but that part of her is what she associates with her darkness, and she’s always been fighting it, we see it in season 3 as well in the contrast with faith, and she’s always tried to act like a normal teenage girl trying to date normal “nice” guys. She had sex with angel only once and it was all very romantic and sweet and obviously a big deal for her, and she wasn’t the type to have a one night stand with Parker, and I can’t imagine her sex with Riley being kinky or other than boring, like the one time she switched bodies with faith and he had sex with her he wasn’t even into role play. Buffy has been portrayed as you put it to be “a little prudish” but that’s just her personality, so I can totally buy her dilemma and her feeling ashamed now that she’s more in touch with her darkness. But I can’t tell if the writers are tying to say that it’s wrong, but to me the show has always been fairly sex positive, with few exceptions of course.

Marty

I mean, you're right that Angel and Spike can't be compared because we would have to compare Spike with Angelus. Spike doesn't have a soul; Angel does. Angelus, just like Spike, doesn't have a soul and he's even more unhinged than Spike is on a certain level and seemed to be wholly uncapable of love. Angel, as we all know, seemed to embody the fact that the soul is connected to the heart; Spike makes us question that theory.

Amanda Reutermo

Angel and Spike really can't be compared. Spike is a serial killer who's not killing because he's in jail. Sure hes managed to cope in jail, and his personality has changed as a result... but he still loves killing and as soon as he gets out, he will be right back at it. Would you let yourself into a relationship with someone like that? Angel is like someone who we thought was a serial killer. Then we found out he had a tumor growing on his brain that took away all capability to understand right from wrong. We removed the tumor and he isn't a serial killer anymore and hates himself for what he did even though it wasn't his fault. Every day we pray the tumor doesn't come back and make him kill again but we know the signs if it does and we know it won't be his fault. Without a soul, Spike is, and always will be, joyfully evil. He might love her but you wouldn't screw someone who was evil just cause they loved you and understood you.

Whitney Nottage

You're not wrong to be totally confused by Bike ...the writers are really inconsistent and sort of...unclear ...of the message they're going for. They know they want to depict an unhealthy, destructive relationship during this time in Buffy's life given her unhealthy mental state. However, they also seem to want to depict Buffy having shame for the *type* of sex she's having, not just who she's having it with - which is not a message I can get on board with. Buffy's attracted to Spike, and they've been bonding increasingly. They've built this up, especially this season. As someone in her orbit who she indeed has been treating as a person/who she's given personhood to, someone she trusts a lot if not fully, he's not inherently some inappropriate choice. He actually makes the only sense, unless we wanted to watch Buffy self-harm with randos she picked up at the Bronze. It also probably would have been a much "healthier", positive experience if she'd approached him with courtesy and respect, and discussed where she's at emotionally and what she wants physically. Much more boring, but that would have been equally as interesting to me. Having a sexual partner that can match her, and having really great house-wrecking, probably kinky (impact play) sex is *not* shameful and shouldn't be treated as such. Even if she's using it as an escape....that's ok! Sex is lots of things and serves lots of purposes. Sure, we'd love Buffy to have a therapist give her better coping tools, but no one gets therapy on this show. Violence has always been Buffy's own particular brand of therapy for her problems. Buffy seems to be "quite the groupie" giving Spike a "run for his money", which shows she's guiding their acts and exploring those sides to her sexuality, and I don't like the message that she should feel ashamed or disgusted by that aspect of it. Of which she clearly is. They lean into this "prudish" persona they've given Buffy, where the narrative is sex is only acceptable if it's in this sweet love place, like with your highschool sweetheart, and even so, there are consequences if the heroine has sex before marriage (bleh 🤢). I thought they'd abandoned this with her relationship with Riley, which I thought was a healthy sex life (tho I suspect ultimately not totally fulfilling for Buffy cause her partner was human), yet here we are again in a really narrow-minded and puritanical view of sex. Not thrilled by that. Buffy should be ashamed of her behavior in using and abusing Spike to work out her own demons, and she should be ashamed of the before and after-sex way she's treating a sexual partner. And she should *possibly* be ashamed of being with a soulless vampire (very debatable at this point with how they've developed Spike). But she should not be ashamed of the sex she's having. They shouldn't be making that a thing. Yet they are. And it's just one too many things and is awful messaging. Really muddled stuff. The show, unfortunately, is not great at depicting women's sexuality. Especially Buffy's. Willow is a sex-positive female character, but that's not really hit on much by the show. The only real sex-positive female is Anya, whom they always make a joke of, dismiss, and scoff at, especially if she's expressing a sexual comment bluntly. Faith is a sex-positive female, but she's treated as "promiscuous" and a "bad girl".

SpikesEcho

As Harmony might say - Spike went for third with Buffy in front of everybody. lmao

Bud Haven