Buffy the Vampire Slayer || 6x09 || Discussion

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/moatk1xvppkurad/AAA29SY1zOQUTlOSZfEGhXtPa?dl=0

Bulldog

Wheres episode 7 and 8

Tolin

Alley's look of disbelief at the end,priceless.

Val

anyone else unable to find this reaction?

none of these s6 videos seem to work other then edited versions. any suggestions?

Macca Fan

Also, with respects to Willow, I honestly don't see how you can't understand how she's gone off the rails. They have been setting up her going too far since the pilot episode. Willow has many good traits, but she also has bad ones we all overlook. That's why it's taken this long for them to really bubble to the surface, because she's breaking things now. Still, she's being doing this right from the beginning. Everyone looks back at season 1 Willow and sees an angel. This really isn't the case though, when you know all of what the following seasons show up to now. She was a frightened little mouse who was too afraid to do anything pretty much, so she just conceded everything to everyone around her. Still, in the pilot episode we got a glimpse of her inner self, and one of her biggest failings. When they were trying to figure out where Jesse was taken, Willow went on the computer to look at the layout of the sewers. Giles asked her how she got access, where she admits she had hacked into the city hall database. Back then, she didn't know about magic, and so was a computer wiz, which this episode reminds us of. Still, she showed that while having a massive thirst for knowledge, she also had no respect for limits on her gaining knowledge. She without hesitation broke laws and did whatever she wanted. She justified that because she was doing it, it wasn't wrong or dangerous. The same thing happened when she started into magic. Constantly those around her was warning her of the dangers if she explored magic too much. Constantly though, she showed she was willing to explore past all sense and reason into any area she could find, no matter the warnings, the dangers, or what it did to her. In the season 2 finale, Giles warns her that channeling the magics used to curse Angel could open a door she wouldn't be able to close. We even see it while she's casting the spell. Something of the magic she was channelling went through her, filled her up. Later others, including Oz and Tara, continued to warn her and even talked with others about the worries they had over Willow's flagrant disregard for the dangers she was exposing herself to in her explorations. Hell, the demons that made Anya was in awe of her power and use of them, to the point that they were willing to elevate her to the level of a vengeance demon. All of that is even before season 5's craziness where she exposed her true power. Part of her knew no one around her would accept her real level of power, so she's kept it well hidden. That is until Tara was hurt. There we got to see her for real. The black eyes and total consuming power that was able to actually hurt a god. Notice how destructive it was and harmful to Willow herself. There are more times we see it, but it isn't until the beginning of season 6 where we really see the depths she has sunk to in her search for more knowledge and power. How many times did she complain about being restricted to floating a pencil? Well, this might have been because she was holding back due to moral concerns. Concerns she obviously overcame some time ago. When we see her slaughter a baby fawn, we get a glimpse of what Tara is so angry over. Her lying about it to everyone shows just how much she's been holding back. So, no, I can't see how someone can't see how she's gone overboard and is scaring people. Her getting to this stage is probably one of the longest lasting character developments in the show outside the slayer lore.

Jordan Haddow

You are missing a lot of details that make those things make sense. Yes, Spike is a vampire. For most of the fanbase, he's a very charming vampire. Even within the lore of the show though, Buffy and Spike work and a not very good way. Ultimately, it's wrong, but things are not as black and white as you seem to see them. Go back to season 2 where Spike and Drusilla resurrect the Judge. He smelled humanity on them. In reality though, he smelled it on Spike. Somehow, when Spike was turned, while losing his soul, the demon in him was tainted by his humanity. This isn't official as far as I know, but it can be backed up with a multitude of episodes. How many times has Spike shown empathy or sympathy, even to the point where he would sacrifice his life for another? He's always been able to see into Buffy's soul, too. How many times did he know exactly what was going on in her mind? Lover's Walk was a real start to that trend. The first time he came back in season 4, he knew straight away how hurt Buffy was and took advantage of it in his fight with her. She just couldn't hide her feelings from him. Now, if we look at Buffy, go to when Faith in Buffy's body slept with Riley. Look at that episode as well as the one Giles was turned into a demon. Then go look at Superstar. Those episodes, when you look closely, expose a deeply held inner belief that Buffy has always held. That someone she loves should be able to just look into her and see her. She was able to tell the demon was Giles by looking into his eyes. She was mainly mad with Riley because when he looked into her eyes, he didn't see it wasn't her but Faith. Still going with Buffy, there's something about Buffy the show rarely faces. Dracula pointed it out, but it's been mostly left off again. That's the fact that being the slayer somewhat removes Buffy from the human realm. She's human, but in many ways, she's closer to vampires than humans. Her strength and responsibility has always been an issue in her relationships. This could especially be seen when it came to Riley. Riley was in his prime, specially trained to fight, and even for much of the time enhanced. Still, to her, he was like a helpless kitten. As much as she strove to fight that feeling, it's how she ultimately felt about him. Every moment she was with him, she always had to hold herself back. Ultimately, Buffy is a super strong warrior of the night. She spends much of her life in the demon realm, much more than in the human realm. Adding all this together, is it any wonder why she's had a hard time keeping Spike at a distance. We all know that Spike doesn't have a soul and ultimately is toxic for her. In. a way though, every relationship Buffy has had in this show has been toxic. Even with Riley. Right from the beginning she knew she wasn't really attracted to him, but she made herself go ahead with it anyways, because she thought that's what she should do.

Jordan Haddow

I mean, the short answer to "how can anyone ship Spuffy after this toxicity?" is SPOILERS. It's a little disingenuous to condemn the ship outright based on the story to date when there is more to the series. In any case there's a lot going on here, it's not healthy, it's not all the "fault" of either Buffy or Spike, and I look forward to Alley seeing where it may go.

bewildered

I think the point everyone trying to make particularly Tara and Giles who have more experience with magic, is that magic has consequences and shouldn’t be used for fun, because it’s easy to slip into dark magic I guess and it becomes an addiction, so it must be used cautiously. Both buffy and willow have discovered the darkness of their powers. As for spike, he is a soulless vampire, of course his perception of love is twisted, but that’s just who he is, he’s been neutered but still evil, if you approach this season you have to view his character and his relationship with buffy through those lenses. I personally think there’s a bit of growth that begins in season 5, like when drusilla snap that girls neck to feed him, he shows hesitation, he stuck around after buffy died to take care of dawn out of guilt and has shown remorse for buffy’s death, guilt and remorse are emotions that evil demons wouldn’t normally feel, and in this episode when he thinks he can attack people again, granted ultimately he chose to do it, but almost has to convince himself to, why would he do that if he hasn’t changed at all, and only after buffy calls him an evil disgusting thing. Him telling buffy “she came back wrong” he does that because he thinks that now she is like him and they can be together, he didn’t take into account the fact that buffy was hurt by this because he’s not capable of understanding this, the same happened when he shows her Riley “cheating”, he does that obviously to break them up, but didn’t consider that buffy would actually be hurt by finding out, and when she did he was surprised and felt almost guilty.

Marty

NGL, I have been too insanely busy to watch this whole reaction yet, but I iust took a bit of my lunchtime JUST to watch your reaction to the very end. You did not disappoint.

bewildered

I actually really love this episode. From Willow to Buffy, it's just a story about enjoying the freefall of self-destruction. From the way sheep appear in the Bronze, hinting at the way Amy and Willow see others, as animals for them to control, to the way the house is literally destroyed around Spike and Buffy, the thematic elements here are NOT subtle. And still, reactors tend to overlook some of these elements because they're so electrified by others. The truth is, people do things that are bad for them all the time, and part of the reason we allow toxic people to remain in our company is because toxic people give us permission to engage in behaviors that numb pain. I think it says a lot about the sorts of red flags that are normalized in heterosexual relationships that people can very clearly see the destruction of the Willow and Amy storyline but tend to make excuses for the Buffy and Spike one.

Mitch M

I'll be over here, with SMG.

Cory Garron

“…several business days…” “Feral” Alley is hilarious with her excitement over this episode. 😆😆 I remember seeing that ending when it aired and reacting pretty much the same way.😳 🔥

Rob

At the risk of this becoming a recurring theme for me, I really hate this episode. My loathing ofr Bike aside, it just generally feels too over the top in a lot of places, especially with Willow and Amy. The last time Amy was human, she had to use incantations and was admittedly somewhat powerful, but not anywhere near this powerful. For that matter, arguably neither was Willow. Suddenly they're both Q and fucking Sabrina the teenage with and just literally snap their fingers and make anything happen; even conjure an entirely different singer to appear performing mid-song. On the flip side of that though, I've just never been able to get on the "you're doing too much magic" bandwagon. At least not so far as the Scoobies are concerned, particularly in this episode; before Willow and Amy are witching it up at The Bronze and everything. They keep muddling the problem which is Willow's indiscriminate use of magic and whether or not, just because she can do something with magic, should she. It's an ethical question, more so than the volume. So what if she's using magic to jack-into her computer. It's just like the magical decorations she used on Halloween for Xander and Anya's engagement party. She didn't have to sacrifice a virgin, who who cares. Making a big deal about those uses of magic undermines the greater concern they should have for the times she's misusing magic, like, say, wiping her girlfriend's memory to end a fight, or wiping everyone's memory after that. Or physically and emotionally manipulating people at The Bronze for your own amusement. They make no distinction in the uses of her magic, and then Tara especially seems like a hypocrite for using magic too, while chastising Willow for doing the same. And then there's Spike, which don't get me wrong; Spike's going to Spike and that's perfectly fine. That's why we like Spike - as an antagonist, because that's what he does best, antagonize people. I just don't get, even in the context of fictional characters, why anyone would be so enamored by...any of this shit. Like, the first thing Spike does the second he thinks his chip stopped working is to attack some woman and when he realizes it's just Buffy he uses that to his advantage by not only attacking her, but gaslighting her; tell her, even before he knew he could hit her, how "I'm the only one you can talk to" and then keep telling her she "came back wrong"? How is any of that sexy?

Stargazer1682

Patreon apparently decided I didn't need to receive any notifications the last few days, even though they're still turned on to be received. I was wondering why it was so quiet on the Reactor front this weekend...

Stargazer1682

One of my favourite piece of dialogue ever: "How have you been?" "Rat. You?" "Dead." "Hmh" Also, the Larry list joke is another favourite.

Phoenix Dawn