Game of Thrones Uncut Reaction S8 E5

Nope, wrong!

Mr. Reggie

Also Cersai is basically the same as Danny, and I think that is the point. The fact that people love Danny and hate Cersei makes no sense to me. Danny's only redeeming quality is that she loves her children, and those she saves she considers her children. The same has been repeated for Cersei over and over. It's also ridiculous how often Spartan gets annoyed at Cersai for not being a fighter, like being a warrior is the only way a woman is valuable in GOT. This is why men like characters like Arya and Brienne, because they represent what men like to see, fighters that stray from feminine behaviors. The only difference is Danny has a dragon and can ride it. She is equally as powerless as Cersei in combat, and standing in the back and watching her people die in every situation she did not have her Dragons. Yet, that is never brought up. Both Cersei and Danny refuse to give up their true desires, yet Cersei is constantly hated when Danny praised. Two sides of the the same coin.

Doomkoala!

I started to see this behavior in season 2. When she thinks she is right, she is right. She believes in her ideals and finds it hard to considers others. You can't reason with logic to madness. People that often present themselves on a pedestal contradict themselves all the time. This is why she continuously failed when it came to Maureen, Yonkai, Astapor, and Carth. Just because she survived and became stronger in each of those places, means she didn't fail and her mental stability started to collapse. She wanted revenge, she doesn't really care who.

Doomkoala!

agree, he was warned.

Fernando F.

yes, that was very impressive. Can't wait to see Spartan's face when the prediction becomes reality. He should respect Pudgey's predictions a bit more.

Fernando F.

I was surprised to see the energy of dragonfire when Drogon burn the spoils of war. All the carts flew through the air like nothing. On the Long Night a piece of the wall was blown off with the blue fire.

Fernando F.

I downloaded their reaction video (mp4) and played the episode on my online service for HBO and it went nice. Not sure what settings you have in your system. In YouTube I use an add-on that allows me to increase the speed in 5% increments. Maybe you press the shortcut and now its accelerated for everything. On my iPad I watch news at 11% faster just to save time. Hope you fix it.

Fernando F.

my explanation about Daenerys: she lost half her army on the Long Night. she lost her 2nd dragon she lost Missandei Jon stopped loving her. Jon "betrayed" her by telling his story to Sansa. Tyrion spread Jon's right to the Throne. she was not eating for 2 days. she concluded that nobody was showing her any love in the whole North. Varys not only spread Jon's story. He was warned by Daenerys to not betrayed her ever after she learn Varys plotted to kill her (she almost kill him right away). Daenerys was talked down by her advisers in not killing many bad people in the past. Is funny how many reactors made the same comment after watching episode 4: "oh my God! she is going to burn everything". One episode later: "how come she is burning everything?". Also, she considered the people inside the fortified walls as supporters of Cersei. So killing them was a way also of killing any possible future enemies of her. Plus.... the Gods flipped a coin with every Targaryen born :) love your reaction as usual

Fernando F.

Nah, you could tell shell had a God complex a few seasons ago. If you pay attention you could clearly see it building.

lance tophoj

You could see the crazy in Dani seasons ago if you paid attention. there was always a God complex with her.

lance tophoj

Its the stronger visual. It not only blew the stone, but also peoples mind. He only Trolls are the ones claiming season 8 is objectively bad.

DrückebergerTV

You know im right, thats why you cant counter anything i wrote.

DrückebergerTV

Missandei got captured because dany couldnot wait. Her death is on her hands, not tyrions.

DrückebergerTV

agree to disagree

diego duffeler

Dany never actually destroyed any cities… ships yeah, armies yeah, but cities she always preserved to protect the innocents,so this was COMPLETELY out of left field and unnecessary. It would have made more sense if she went crazy after she gained the iron throne, not before. She could of lined up all Lannister soldiers and burned them all and it still would’ve been more in character… this just didn’t make a lick of sense. Feel bad for Emilia Clarke after all of the time she put into this character. Such a betrayal imo

girl gal

When was the last time Martin cared about writing the books?

DrückebergerTV

I cant recall a single constructive comment from you, only destructive and insulting ones.

DrückebergerTV

Not really. Walter "redeemed" himself by giving money to his family, freeing jesse and dying. Eren Yaeger... i hate attack on Titans ending and i am honest enough to admit that its what happened thats bullshit not the how. He kills half of humanity, makes everyone hate his people forever in the Process only to have his friends kill him so that they are not hated anymore. As if that would redeem anything. What he did is what dany wanted to di and he gets not questioned or critizied at all by his people. They love him and thank him for killing half of humanity. Its stupid, its praising and gloryfying genocide, its the complete opposite of GoTs Lesson: "Follow an edgy, Massmurder. And be grateful for what he did." Its as if Jon and Tyrion would look at Danys Body and thank her. Its ridicilous.

DrückebergerTV

You care as much about writing as about if Martins Stamp is in it. If he were credited for this season, people would love it. Or at least pretend to love it.

DrückebergerTV

Yes, because its the law, its how they take it and execute justice. Robb and Jon didnt take pleasure from doing the deed. Ned didnt either. Dany did.

DrückebergerTV

Not just the bad rules, any ruler would execute someone who is actively trying to overthrow them and murder them. Be real with yourself and the rest of us

Gummybear

If you have low standard just say that. Don’t criticize others for caring about the writing lol

Gummybear

And not saying I agree with the comment but just because your GIRLFRIEND agrees with your takes doesn’t mean they aren’t biased or prejudicial against women for the record…

Gummybear

She did listen… that’s why she agreed to attempt to negotiate with cercie before attacking… many ppl seem to forget that. Then her best friend was killed in front of her due to her hands incompetence once again. and yet Varys decides to move forward with betraying her even though she has done nothing to this point to warrant that and is justified in attacking kings landing.

Gummybear

The end definitely does matter lol what? It’s less about what happens and more about expecting the writers to dedicate the appropriate amount of care and attention to the story that was given throughout.

Gummybear

Probably makes more sense than what we got

Farmer John

I agree I actually like Jamie’s storyline but I think it could have handled better at the end. It still felt a bit cheap

Gummybear

Exactly, we never see the fallout of cercie blowing up the sept. It’s completely glossed over

Gummybear

Complete delusion lol luckily you aren’t the gauge for good writing

Gummybear

Exactly!! Tyrion and Varys are awarded so much grace because they’re well liked, unlike dany.

Gummybear

Huh??? She didn’t kill the slave master for no reason she killed him because she understood her was evil and had no regard for human life and participated in the mutilation and subjugation of thousands of unsullied!!! She killed him because he was a SLAVE MASTER and she frees slaves. Buying slaves and allowing the master and his ensemble to live would only propagate the practice… your comment makes literally no sense.

Gummybear

She was never destroying places just for the sake of it… this was completely different and made no sense

Gummybear

Druck is the biggest troll 🙄

Gummybear

Pudgy's prediction on who will be on the throne is something that sounds really dumb but i think it would make sense. I wanted to know why she thought that. But obviously got interrupted lol

Ayanda Seshabela

I have destroyed many of your arguments drucker but it’s like talking to a wall with you

Sean Carroll

Walter white and eren yaeger are far more complex and tragic

Sean Carroll

On Phone i cant use paragraphes, if i try, my post just gets posted, it is what it is. They talk about it in Fire cant kill a dragon as well. Its not like Dany wasnt horrified by 163 dead children and by drogon killing one child as well. Its easy to claim her ending doesnt make sense by leaving out all her Story before these moments and after. Season 4 Dany wouldnt have done what Season 8 Dany did. But eventually she choose to fullfill her destiny. She had to either sacrifice her dream and lifes purpose or sacrifice her morals. She sacrified the second.

DrückebergerTV

Brans actor first confirmed that this was Martins Idea. They mentioned Shireens Death as one of the Top 3 Things that shocked them from Martins Ideas, along Hodors Death, wich was received very well. If they truly wanted to throw him under the Bus they wouldnt have mentioned him when they won best series emmy for season 8, they could have cried how he left them high and dry and complained how hard it was to finish unfinished, unadaptable Story. They didnt because they are professionell unlike Martin who complains all the time about everything while providing nothing. If better ending is possible, no one is stopping him from releasing it. He told them all major endings, of course he doesnt have every minor characters ending in mind like bronn or Davos. Jon is dead in the books, nothing more or less right now. The Volanquar prophecy was met in the show as well: he Held his hands around her neck while she cried and died, but he didnt kill her, he comforted her. I know that hold the door still makes sense by him fighting with a sword, im saying that i already like the show Version more than that. You should Start learning selfdoubt. We dont know if things will be better in the books or how they will play out. Season 8 fucked people up by destroying all their predictions and theories and people like you didnt learn a lesson from that at all.

DrückebergerTV

Me admitting Season 8s flaws is just the same as people prasing everything but the writing. It doesnt matter in both cases, as "the writing" destroys your enjoyment of this masterpiece regardless of acting or directing and those "flaws" dont destroy mine in season 8. Furthermore i believe in those peoples cases they use this "everything is great but the writing" only as a shield to come off as differentiated critcism instead of dissapointed crying because they didnt get the story they wanted.

DrückebergerTV

Danys Arc lasted 8 Seasons. If Martin changes it because of Rezeption he is weak and a coward.

DrückebergerTV

They have a 1 month timejump within the very first episode. Cersei and jaime are in KL the first time we meet them. Next scene they are in Winterfell.

DrückebergerTV

Cersei died from a rock falling on her in private.....yes she didn't want to die, but once she accepted that it was happening, she died quickly and with the person she loved in a loving embrace.....when EVERY person she had killed died horribly and publicly! also, except for the fact that Tyrion will confirm that she died in the next episode, NO ONE would have know she died! buried under King's landing.

Nate Terry

Perhaps you're right...and she was meant to be this way the whole time. However, If you were honest at the time this episode was released, were you expecting her to burn King's landing down? or were you expecting her to step up from the long struggle to be like her father? the writers made a conscious decision to build up expectation that they then subverted. I have reflected on this show quite substantially, and have watched it all the way up to "the long night," except this time for Spartan and pudgey reaction.

Nate Terry

“A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing” - Maester Aemon I think Danny felt alone since she went to Winterfell but she had John and Missandei Then John turned her down as her lover And Missandei was killed That’s when she lost it and felt like she had no one Regardless, I still think after the Long Night episode everything just went downhill.

Aisha

Too much to comment on every point but the difference in the executions was Dany was supposed to be different. Her speeches were about breaking traditions of dictators, executions, slavery, etc. So yes when she decided to start burning ppl alive who didn't follow her (something she told the unsullied she'd never do if they walked away) was weird because she was never supposed to care about Westeros traditions of old. "Break the wheel" "Breaker of chains". She had a dream of a different world (as unrealistic as it may have been to change the culture) but she was sucked right into the ways of Westeros. The power, the corruption. She was never different. She went full mad king. Dany starting charging in S4-5. Whoever missed it, wasn't paying attention in my opinion. And also - when did GoT ever care about who "meant something to us". Thats the whole point. They never ever cared to rip our hearts out. Dany included. To blame show runners etc for your ending not making you feel happy and warm inside doesn't make sense to me. "You play the game of thrones - you win or you die." - this show isn't for the faint of heart, lol. PS. Not everyone loved Dany - I was rolling my eyes at her in S5.

Eve Griffin

Wonderful reaction as always. I think a lot of people felt this ep fell short however on the rewatch it makes much more sense. All of it. When you're seeing it play out after seasons of speculation and really seeing the end of things it can feel "off or surreal" I get that but I think it's more that feeling than the episode itself. Dany's character change hurt, its supposed to hurt. Goes to show someone starting with the best intentions can easily be corrupted by power, fear, fame, etc. Her tendencies started showing for me in S4-S5, it started to not be about the "people" and more about her. All of her speeches became about herself. Her reaction to the news about Jon was about herself. Finally when she lost Jorah, Missande, Jon and realized the people in Westeros didnt respect or fear her - she went ...well....mad. It is in her bloodline. "the gods flip a coin" as they say. Just like the entire series, some characters you love will disappoint you, some you'll be proud of, some will hurt but its for the best. That's life and why I always felt this show was a masterpiece. All troupes of typical fantasy are gone. There's no definitive line between good and evil - humans are flawed and the show executes that fact perfectly. Enjoy the finale, relish and appreciate the journey you've been on. and I can't stress enough - the rewatch gives amazing new perspective.

Eve Griffin

100% - Dany started changing seasons ago.

Eve Griffin

:O u two are the bst

Stympler

when is ep 6 coming out :(

Stympler

Anyone else here had an issue when watching along with your own copy? Well i was streaming the episode, and the streamed episode is faster than what they are watching... i constantly have to stop my own copy a few seconds to wait for them... And that for all GOT episodes. Anyone else?

Philipp Lembens

Are you guys going to react to the histories and lore for season 8?

Muki Krishnan

This is also how Aegon took out the town and became King. I think Dany was destroying it because a Targaryen built it and since they won’t love her, she destroyed it

Kimberley83

Tell everyone Mad Queen Dany was always coming. Sometimes I think it is because I binged it. Fans always seem to forget what happens season per season when they’re watching it as it airs.

Kimberley83

I thought the white horse represented hope?

Ghostcat

How does everyone seem to miss that Varys was trying to have Danny poisoned by that little kid in the beginning? He 100% deserved to be executed

Eddy Millan

Maybe Dany is the Night King who also trained with the Faceless Men...

CrystalDeth

I can't believe Pudgey predicted what she did in the beginning.

Nick Wright

jumps in time with meaning, in GOT there have not been any, the good thing about this series is that everything was built and nothing felt forced, there is no need to think the same, for me, the last season leaves many things unexplained .. and everything feels forced

ruth cueva

D&D are quite happy to throw GRRM under the bus when it comes to arcs people don't like with SPECIFICITY - they were quick to say that King Bran was his idea, when there was backlash. Quick to point to him for Shireen's burning. He did not outline the ending for every major character because HE DOESN"T KNOW the ending for each major character. GRRM himself has said a hundred times that that is not how he writes his stories, especially for characters - he's a discovery writer. He told them the broad strokes, which included certain characters endings because they were so key to core questions (such as Bran). With Dany, I'm sure they knew she dies since she has to for Bran to be king. When it comes to Dany, they SAID they came up with the Jon/Dany ending around season 3. This was 2 years before they went to him to get the broad strokes of the ending, so they came up with it all on their own. In order to justify Dany being enough of a threat for Jon to murder her, they had to to turn her into a villain (which btw, I'd be fine with if they did it well). You obviously haven't read the books so idk why you think you know what's fitting for ASOIAF. In the story, Jon is a warg and he is currently in his direwolf's head. When he is ressurected, Ghost's spirit will return with him. The fact that it sounds silly to you means you're in the wrong fandom, go watch Fast and Furious. Same vibe with your comments about Jaime, even a cursory read will tell you he's in no way on this trajectory in the books. He turned his back on Cersei in the show equivalent of season 5. It's heavily foreshadowed that he may die with her, but that will be because he is choking her to death as per the valonqar prophecy. Even what you talk about regarding Hodor is embarrassingly misinformed 🤦🏿‍♂️ Yes, Hodor will likely die fighting off wights in a doorway with a sword. That IS holding the door, it's a common turn of phrase in the story/fantasy, as well as in real military history (ever heard of holding the line?). What exactly was I supposed learn? Cause what I did learn is that D&D can't write, and that no matter how shit something is there'll always be some people that will slurp it up and die on a hill defending it.

Mzuka

First of all, Druck, please use paragraphs. It's so hard to read those giant blocks of text and honestly the lack of effort you put into writing your comments pairs perfectly with your appreciation of this lacklustre season. Yes, you commented that they talked about every major character but that doesn't make it true. Dan and Dave outlined what GRRM told them in the documentary "Duty is the Death of Love" (the name sort of shows you where they were at mentally). GRRM has gone into more detail on his notablog website, so unless you have actual quotes (which you don't) you're just repeating shit you saw on the internet. Honestly, reading your replies and having this argument I'm reminded of an old Mark Twain quote, so I'm not going to go into this anymore. Good for you if you enjoy this, it's true that there's an audience for everything. Shame me and the world can't appreciate this "masterpeice". I'll leave you with a Dany quote from the books: "What good is peace if it is purchased with the blood of children?" [This is when the Harpy's are slaughtering people in Meereen, and all her advisors try convince her to execute the hostage children of the Great slave master families] I'm going to stick to GRRM.

Mzuka

😂😂😂 Druck, you amaze me. For the record, better writing would have been the fire acting like, you know, fire. Dragonfire is hot enough to melt stone, as seen at Harrenhal, but it can't blow up walls and buildings because that's not how fire works. Dragons breathe fire, not nukes, and only people who don't read/watch fantasy come in with that "well its a fantasy story, so anything can happen argument." Writing good fantasy magic is about establishing. rules with internal consistency, if you just make up everything on the fly to serve your story it pulls the audience out.

Mzuka

... since when do dragons even exist? Dany should have raised 3 nukes instead, that would be so much better writing.

DrückebergerTV

She was.

DrückebergerTV

I already conmented they talk about every major character, not just 3, where 2 are not even major. It does translate because the crime is irrelevant, its about dany executing the justice she thinks people deserve. In her mind those slavemasters deserved to die just as much as the people of kingslanding, because she knows what is right. Hizdahrs father was innocent of the crime dany punished those masters for. She never did burn citys to the ground because characters like tyrion, jorah, barristan, varys and jon had to talk her out of it. Yes, she helps and saves people and her messiah complex grows with it. Dany has nothing in common with hitler, more with Stalin and communism.There was "nuance". She did what she thought was right and like tyrion said, we cant be sure if her way was the right way or not. Its left ambigious for thaf reason. When Dany told tyrion her plans to burn 3 citys in 6x9, there were no enemies around to hear. It was her intention, not a threat. Its your fault you are offended by a masterpiece. Its supposed to provoke and it worked. As if people didnt threat to cancel their HBO subscription and insulted the show for the Red Wedding. Of course they all camd back to watch the next episode anyway.

DrückebergerTV

@Druck If that's what you think, I really have been wasting my time with you. I'm not going to spend any more talking to somebody who won't even try to understand my perspective and claims I'm upset because I want to be. The fact that you can't concede even one plot point in these episodes makes me severely doubt your judgement. As much as I hate this season, I can still appreciate some of it at least. If you still loved it but could admit to some of the flaws, I would respect your opinion a lot more.

Munir

"Every time a Targeryan is born the Gods flip a coin". We heard that severeal times. I think that foreshadowing tells it all when it comes to Jon and Dany.

Marcus Andriakenas

Im just defending the truth. And again, only more insults from you as well, you people couldnt argue if your life depended on it.

DrückebergerTV

You were supposed to see the horror unfold, to feel with the people, we didnt need to see anymore of danys PoV. Her Look before the starts burning was powerful enough. Well, Pudgeys reaction was quite relatable. Her expression for the most part was: :O

DrückebergerTV

Wrong, they went through every major character and their ending. Hodor, Shireen and Bran are only the 3 things they revealed that shocked them the most. Seems like Jon and Danys or Jaimes Ending just didnt suprise them as much. Well, we already know how hodors death will play out in the books, Martin spoiled in "Fire cant kill a dragon." Hodof stands in front of the door with a sword and fights the dead off this way. I prefer the show Version already because there us actually "Holding the door". So, we cant even be sure, even if the books ever come out, if they will be as good as in the show. Jon has changed in the show as well after resurrection, its just very subtle. Its not like Beric, who has been resurrected 5-6 times is a ruthless Monster either. This Wolfman sounds silly and more like a twilight zone story than fitting for asoiaf. Dany also wanted to liberate the entire World in the end in her way. You talk so surely about Events that have yet to happen, like you didnt learn anything. There were a million things people thought would definitely happen and is written in stone to happen in season 8... the only thing they were right about was Mountain vs. Hound. Everything else was wrong.

DrückebergerTV

There was nothing ilogical about this scene. You are just hating for the Sake of hating.

DrückebergerTV

Timejumps are used in any story. GoT is no exception, it was there since 1x1.

DrückebergerTV

I don't think it's mentioned enough how weird the dragonfire is in this episode...since when is fire explosive? Drogon is literally blowing up stone 🤦🏿‍♂️😂

Mzuka

She must have loved his story. He has the best story.

Mzuka

No he didn't Druckerberger thats rubbish show apologists always try to push despite D&D themselves making it very clear what he told them. GRRM has also - as politely as possible - made it clear that very little of this was his story after a point. The only things he told them concerning the ending were: 1) Hodor scene 2) Shireen burning 3) Bran becoming King Everything else is entirely D&D: post season 4, they no longer even consulted him on the story (no surprises it took a dive). The Jon/Dany ending - including Dany's madness - is something they came up with in season 3 (as per their own admission). They added in all these moments (such as the innocent slave master thing) to try and justify Dany's turn at the end, and it worked for a small minority such as yourself. For most people, even crucifying "innocent" slave masters doesn't translate to burning a city full of innocent people. That whole thing with Hizdahr's father isn't in the books, because its fucking dumb. Say innocent slave masters out loud and you should get a feel for why. Even her talking about burning cities to the ground isn't good enough becaxe she never DID it. Actions are what define a person and a character, and 99% of what we see Dany do is focused on helping and saving people. Even the instances of rage and punishment you speak about are all triggered by injustice. To be clear: I could see what they were trying to do in the show with the Mad Queen arc, but they did it waaay too poorly. They didn't do enough to justify her becoming a mass murderer. Secondly, this was in no way what GRRM planned for her character (and if he did, he'd write it better). Dany is definitely going on an arc towards embracing her Fire and Blood heritage, but not as some fantasy Hitler, more as a Targaryen of old. Her enemies already describe her as the Mad Queen and mix rumour and tall tales to attack her, so she will surely face political backlash for this. But there will be NUANCE. Dany will probably burn the inner city of Volantis as she makes her way to Westeros, killing the Old Blood and triggering a slave revolt. This actually sets up her burning KL way better than D&D and did because it is an actual acvtion, not just a threat made to enemies. However it still won't be some sadistic tantrum like the show, and is ultimately building towards her quitting her pursuit of the Iron Throne to fight the Others. It is telling that D&D read Dany's arc in the books and either inferred or simply elected to take it in the "mad woman" direction. A boring, misogynstic ending for a character with soooo much potential. Season 8 is nothing but dick jokes and disappointment, and I'm so astonished and offended that you think those hacks could do a better job than GRRM with his own characters. You clearly haven't read the books.

Mzuka

@Don't Drink the only things that are the same are: 1) Hodor scene 2) Shireen burning 3) Bran being King These are the 3 "oh shit" moments that GRRM told D&D about around season 3/4 when they went to his house for a catch up and find out where the story is going. All three of these moments will play out quite differently, cause the characters are in slightly different places/situations. Everything else is entirely D&D: post season 4, they no longer even consulted him on the story (no surprises it took a dive). The Jon/Dany ending - including Dany's madness - is something they came up with in season 3 (as per their own admission). As was Arya killing the Night King. GRRM himself gave us a big update on his blog last year where he talked about his progress. Fans of his know he is a "gardener writer" (he knows where the story si going, but he discovery writes and lets his characters lead the way). GRRM said his gardening is "increasingly leading him farther from where the show ended up". The main reason for this he says, is because there are so many characters who are in the books and not the show, as well as characters who are alive in the books that died in the show, and these characters impact the story and the characters. They all come with their own plotlines, and on top of that there are elements in the books that are core focuses that the show wasn't interested in - like the entire magical side of things. GRRM will definitely give us a far superior ending because its HIS story and he actually knows the characters. TWOW alone will show that. If we take Jon as an example, he is definitely going to come back changed in the books. Instead of returning as a flaccid mope as he did in the show, he will come back as a Wolfman (with Ghost's spirit) who is much more ruthless and focused on protecting his people. In the books, a core theme of Dany' entire arc is about FREEDOM (as it was in the show for a long time). Her story is about freeing people from bondage, and it is clearly going to culminate in her freeing people from the ultimate bondage - that of being raised from the dead. GRRM has gone to lengths to create parallels in the language between the Unsullied and the wights, the masters and the Others. Earlier in the story he does the same with the Undying and the Others, ad even shows us a cold blue heart of Winter that Dany burns with Drogon. He's bulding Dany towards a destiny of burning the Others and freeing the wights. Trust me, Mad Queen Dany is not a book thing. We will likely see her setting off the wildfire in King's Landing but this will be very different, and will be a result of her confrontation with fAegon, not Cersei. GRRM uses Stannis in the books to foreshadow Dany's arc: he comes to take King's Landing, faces wildfire and fails, and then is reminded that his duty as a king is to the people. He then heads north to fight the Others, where he dies. Dany will come to take KL from her "nephew", set off the wildfire and retreat in horror at what she has done. Then she will learn of the Others, and feel compelled to go fight the Others, and likely die fighting them.

Mzuka

Druckerberger how much do D&D pay you? This dick riding is crazy 😂

Mzuka

what are you one of the writers of the show? No need to defend this pile of shit like that.

Dom

The white horse is symbolic, one of the horses of the apocalypse, death😪

gak9319

“This is who Daenerys is. She wasn't born this way. But, she was RAISED this way and MARRIED into it. There is no sugar-coating it.” I disagree with this assessment off jump. You’re basically getting at an “it’s nurture” argument, and I think any appeal to nurture falls flat, because we see what that nurture wrought when the series opens. Danaerys has been abused all of her life, and the abusive nature has not hardened her or made her ruthless; in fact it has done the exact opposite. She has a tender heart, an assessment spoken by her advisors, who genuinely believe this as they have witnessed it firsthand. At her core, she does not enjoy violence, which we see when she flinches at the violence at her wedding, and we see that her distaste for it continues even when she gains power and she flinches at the violence done at the fighting pits. She was not raised to have this distaste, and she certainly did not gain this distaste once she married Drogo. This is something core to her being that it at odds with the nurture she might have received. If the nurture did anything, it was to give her empathy for others that suffer at the hands of the more powerful. Who she really is, is someone that does not seek out or derive pleasure from violence, or abuse, or mistreatment of innocent people. We see that in our introduction of her and see it throughout her journey as she gains power. “She is ruthless. “ Lets’s check Webster’s definition for ruthless. Ruthless: Having no pity : MERCILESS, CRUEL This isn’t true. Not at the onset of the series, when she shows pity to the town being slaughtered and raped, and not at any point in the series prior to this episode, even when she has the power to enact her will. She shows pity in instances. She shows mercy in instances. She avoids being cruel. She does have a strong conviction of justice, and I think you may be equating that conviction to ruthlessness. But in this world where execution is common place, all of the Lords in Westeros do it, and it’s considered justice, then you’re going to have to do more than point to her responding to cruelty with a death sentence to uniquely single out her actions as cruel. Dany is pretty consistent in what she views as justice as well, as its not just given out to her enemies, or people she despises. She executes a member of her council, a slave she freed, a slave that called her mother, because he murdered a slave master awaiting trial. But in the same breath, she spared slave masters and attempted to work with them, despite her distaste for them as people. This points to a strong conviction of right and wrong, not cruelty, a lack of mercy, or not showing pity. “She used the slaves as a MOTIVATIONAL ENGINE, to conquer all of the slave cities in Essos.” Worth mentioning that she attempted to stop slavery within Drogo’s khalasar before she ever had inkling that she would be in power to conquer any slave cities. I think this is important because it seems like you’re meaning to imply that she manufactured a justification to conquer, rather than her core, or WHO SHE IS, telling her that slavery is wrong, despite any nurture she received from Viserys and Drogo. "But, when she arrived in Westeros, there was no slavery to conquer." But there was an evil tyrant - who just blew up the religious symbol of faith, a beloved queen and religious leader - ruling Westeros. This gives her just as much of a morally righteous motivation. "Things in Westeros, isn't as cut-and-dry or black-and-white, as it is in Essos." In some ways, no, but in other ways it is more cut and dry. Danaerys had to manage and try to re-invent an entire economy in Slavers Bay, while also trying to navigate cultural issues she didn’t understand. It was a quagmire that was far more complex of an issue to solve than what she had waiting for her in Westeros. Taking KL and installing herself would just be swapping one ruler out for another, rather than the multi-faceted crisis she faced in different slave cities turned free cities overnight. Dany had no “claim” to end slavery in the slave cities. But she did have a “claim” to the Iron Throne. So yeah, in many ways, it was more black and white and cut and dry in Westeros. "What Daenerys did to the Slave Master in Astapor, should have raised a red flag." Why? She offered them terms, they rejected those terms, they went to war, and committed violence towards slaves, and she executed them. Again, you’re going to have to do more than point to executions to prove your thesis here, that 8x5 is who she really is, and that this is supported throughout the series. Executions are common in this world and are considered just, not a red flag, or sign of madness or even cruelty. Ned Stark executes someone in our introduction to him. “Remember. She didn't have enough money to buy the 8 thousand unsullied soldiers. So, she lied to the slave master. And promised him, that he would have the biggest dragon, for giving her the 8 thousand soldiers.” So she lies when it’s politically convenient and kills someone that kidnaps children, murders the unfit ones, and turns the others into slaves. Yes, that is who she is. We’re still far from the thesis of your post. “What happened next, Daenerys went back on her word and had Drogon burn the Slave master to a crisp. Then she had her unsullied soldiers slaughter all of the slave master's assistants. So the question should be, why did Daenerys do that?” Because she detests the world of slavery and wants to do something about it. “Why did she go back on her word? The slave master never threatened her. In any way. The most the slave master did, was call her derogatory names in a language, he didn't think she would understand. That's it!!! That isn't cause to kill a person. That isn't cause to go back on your word and steal 8 thousand soldiers.” She saw the master cut off the nipple of a slave, shortly after hearing about the brutal and inhumane way they take children and build them into slave soldiers in the first place. She decided she would not let that stand. If that alone is not cause for her to oppose this faction with violence, then no cause exists that would justify any violent action against slave owning masters. And again, going back to nurture. Would Viserys or Drogo have cared about the unsullied being slaves? Would they have even seen them as human? If not, then how do you square that with your thesis, that Danaerys was raised to be what we see in 8x5? Why does she have any compassion at all for the slave soldiers? In any event, I don’t even think it’s technically right to say she went back on her word. They made a trade, control for the unsullied for control of the dragon, fair and square; it’s not her fault he was too stupid to see that the trade would mean the unsullied would no longer listen to him, and that his inability to control the dragon when she spoke to it would cause his death. If she hadn’t made a legal deal, then the unsullied would have continued following the master. But he made a legal deal and paid the price for the logical conclusion. She used cunning to outsmart him. Again though, we’re still in the realm of “she killed someone” or “she was misleading”, which no one would dispute as traits of hers. She will execute someone when she finds it just, and she will be cunning when it suits her. Still very far from the thesis of your post, her indiscriminately killing innocent people, includes children, because it is WHO SHE IS, and how she was RAISED. Arya Stark killed someone because he was making fun of The Red Wedding, he didn’t threaten her, but she killed him anyway. Would you say this is evidence that because she killed the Frey solider without him threatening her, it is a red flag or evidence that she would mass kill children at an orphanage? “She couldn't use that in Westeros. And, the more interactions she had with the people of Westeros, the more of who she is, was slowly being revealed.” This gets at the heart of why I reject your thesis. This “slowly revealed” who she is rhetoric is basically the argument that power reveals who you are. But Danaerys had power, TONS of power when she was in Essos, and even when faced with complicated issues that tested every part of her, it did not reveal what we saw in 8x5. In many cases, it revealed the exact opposite. Who is Danaerys? The woman that would put her dragons, the beings she considers her children, the beings that gave her power to begin with, in CHAINS, despite her claiming she is the breaker of chains, all because one of the dragons killed ONE child. THIS act revealed who Danaerys is. She wasn’t advised to do it, she wasn’t nurtured by Drogo or Viserys to do this, SHE decided on her own that this was just, was the right thing to do, at the expense of her own emotions and power. You cannot square this action with your thesis. It’s an inconvenience for it, and no amount of “but she executed people” gets around it. “When Daenerys had Sam's father and brother torched by Drogon, that should've been the 2nd red flag raised.” Why? She executed someone who refused to bend the knee, something considered perfectly acceptable within this society. Ignore that the showrunners started framing these common actions differently depending on the character, and just focus on the acts themselves. Jon Snow’s first act as Lord Commander was to execute someone that did not follow a command, despite that person apologizing, begging for his life, and asking for mercy before he was executed. That is considered just in this world, by all characters up until season 7 when the showrunners decided pacifism and a modern 21st century mindset needed to apply to this society for Dany alone, and not the other characters. “Again. What did Sam's father do? Ok. He fought her in the field of battle. He lost. All of the Lannister and Tarly forces were down and defeated. He just decided that he wasn't going to bend the knee, to his captor. Sam's father was not a threat to Daenerys.” What did he do? He refused to swear fealty to the Queen, and faced execution for it, which is common in this world and is never presented as a red flag that the executor is insane, or a mass murderer. "Even Tyrion gave her great counsel, as to why she shouldn't kill him or his son. " Tyrion has been giving her useless godawful counsel the entire campaign in Westeros. Tyrion was WRONG to tell Dany not attempt a siege on KL. We saw in 8x5 how easy it was to take the city with minimal casualties, and that was with one dragon and half her army gone after she sacrificed it to save Westeros. They could have started the siege at dawn and taken it before lunch when she first got to Westeros. But she listened to Tyrion, and kept listening to him (stupid wight Plan?) and at every turn, it was proven to be unwise to listen to him. “He told her, that it would be wiser to have them sitting in a cell, and let them contemplate the choices that they made. But, No. Daenerys wasn't having none of it.” It was not even demonstrated in the show that it would have been wise for her to take these men as prisoners. She took KL easily in 8x5, and if the showrunners didn’t decide to have her burn the city after the surrender of the city, she would have seated herself on the Iron Throne, and given those lands over to supporters, which again, is common place in this world and does not denote madness or even being unjust. The showrunners just decided for season 7 that Tyrion, who blew up a fleet with wild fire, and Varys, who supported arming Viserys with Dothraki, would become pacifists that think executions and sieges are now evil. “What you guys saw in this episode, was Daenerys revealing who she really is.” No, what we saw in the previous seasons is who she is. A flawed but complex character that has a tender heart towards the weak and defenseless, and wrestles with how to enact justice upon those that inflict cruelty upon them. We never saw someone, at any point that would indiscriminately murder innocent children. “Daenerys was a baby. And was whisked away, with her older brother Viserys, to Essos. She was literally raised by Viserys. We all know who Viserys was.” And Danaerys is a sharp contrast to Viserys. “Daenerys then gets married off to Khal Drogo. The leader of the most ferocious savages in the world. Where there is no word for "THANK YOU", in their language. LOL!!!” And guess who taught Khal Drogo the concept of thank you? Guess who got the entire khalasar, known throughout the world as rapers and pillagers, to stop raping and pillaging? How is this possible, if WHO SHE IS, is just a product of the raping and pillaging Drogo? Dany influenced the tribe far more than the other way around. This nurture argument is just falling completely flat. “Jorah is not specialized in the area of politics. He is a warrior first. Barristan Selmy is not specialized in the area of politics. He is a warrior first. Both of them had small pockets of wisdom, to share with Daenerys, during some of her crucial moments. But, that is very small, compared to the amount of years she has been with Viserys and Khal Drogo.” She spent more time with Jorah than she did with Khal Drogo. Her politics aren’t even really the topic. She developed them with her advisors throughout the series, it’s her convictions that are the matter at hand. And her convictions reveal who she is, which is not a product of Viserys or Drogo. She wanted to end slavery against Drogo’s orders and got him to ease up on taking women as sex slaves. Where did she get this conviction from, if who she is, is just a product of Viserys and Drogo? “And, what I find most amusing, is how most of us who watched the series, we are just fascinated by the Dragons. How they can fly. Look monstrous and destroy almost anything. We tend to get behind Daenerys, when she is burning people, that we the audience believe to be bad people. " Blame the showrunners on this incoherent framing issue, where sometimes brutal executions are considered just, or mature, or badass, and sometimes they are considered acts that make you insane or a future mass murderer. They could not decide what their actual message was about violence in this show. Which is why Sansa having dogs maul Ramsay is not a red flag of anything, just cathartic justice for the “good guys,” but Danaerys using any violence at all for any reason is used as justification that she was evil all along. “But, when those dragons are turned on innocent people. Or, people that we like(Varys). We tend to get upset, and get confused about why that person would do that?” This argument just seems so silly to me, when it’s said by Tyrion, and yes by defenders of this episode and season. Yes, an audience will cheer bad people being killed by a sword, and be upset when innocent people are killed by the same sword. That doesn’t mean the audience was wrong for finding it just that the bad people were killed. Lindsay Ellis already broke down why that “first they came for the socialist” take from Tyrion is godawful. "They wouldn't do that?" "This is bad writing." "They needed more seasons to flesh this out." “No guys. It's been fleshed out. All of the hints. All of the actions that were committed. All of the backstory is there, in all 8 seasons, for you to see the progression of Daenerys reach to this point.” Nope. Hints are not character development. Foreshadowing is not character development. “But they were raised with” is not character development. Tommen was raised by Cersei and is brother to Joffrey, but that “backstory” would not mean a scene of him killing kittens for fun would make sense. Arya slaughtered a family, baked them into pies, then served their bodies to the father, before slitting his throat and savoring it. Arya has been spouting nihilist rhetoric about death for seasons. That does not mean if in 8x6, she decided to kill an orphanage full of children, that we could point to the Frey scene and go “makes perfect sense, all of the hints and actions were there. She’s ruthless.” No. You have to have a natural progression to get there, and the showrunners failed spectacularly in making this progression, which is why they have to work overtime pointing to “foreshadowing”, because intuitively, they know this character turn does not make sense. Dany executing slavers for owning slaves (Ned Stark was going to execute Jorah for selling slaves before Jorah fled), or executing lords for not bending the knee (like Jon executing a man for not following his order) is not progression enough, or a fleshed out journey towards indiscriminately murdering children. "I am not a Daenerys hater. In any way. But, this is who Daenerys is. She wasn't born this way. She was RAISED this way. She MARRIED into it. She just decided to unleash it." I’m not either. Dany was never, at any point in the story, one of my 10 or 20 favorite characters. I have plenty of critiques about her and what she represents. And I always wanted her to fail in her goal of sitting the Iron Throne, as I thought it would be too boring. I’m not bothered by the idea of her committing an atrocity in the story. I was always intrigued by that as a possibility, and loved discussing it on reddit. All that mattered to me was that it make sense within the story. But in season 8, with 7 as the setup, it just doesn’t. And the writing for Dany in the final seasons encapsulates my overall issues with the writing of the final seasons. Starting at the ending and working backwards. Poor motivations, poor dialogue, poor set up, poor payoffs, stilted actions that only move the plot, inconsistent world building, incoherent themes. It’s just a soup of bad writing. And despite me enjoying Dany's failures and struggles more than her victories, I can plainly see that the girl was done dirty. Dany isn’t the only casualty of this. I’d argue most of the characters somehow got damaged badly during the final few seasons. She’s just perhaps the most blatant considering how much she meant to the fanbase as a whole.

Random Random

If they had taken a few steps to their left I think they would’ve lived. When Tyrion walks in, there’s plenty of space. It felt underwhelming but I get it - most people thought she would get eaten or a big payback, but she went out quietly.

Jamie Neill

Very telling this was the one time the show lingered on the horrors of what was going on to the people of Kings Landing. Cersei blowing up the Sept killed however many civillians but it happens and never plays into anything again, downplaying it and reducing it to nothing more than a cool visual. Will be interesting if a show about Roberts Rebellion ever gets made and the knots people will twist themselves into when Tywin orders the sack

Rick James

Dany losing the plot right at the end before she completes her mission throughout the series is not a bad story the execution was lacking on all fronts

Rick James

Cersei died, the mountain died other than that meh really. Danys turn isnt a masterstroke of writing, its rushed and takes all the punch out of it by being so rushed. Also its weird Cersei killing civillians isnt a bad thing apparently but when Dany does shes worse than every other bad character the series has ever had, its almost like the writers played favorites and decided to be "shocking".

Rick James

Disagree about Cersei. She often brought bad things on herself so why not her own death?

Rick James

What Im looking forward to if they ever make it is the show about Roberts Rebellion and the knots people will twist themselves into when Tywin orders the sack of Kings Landing. The show tried to make us beliuve Dany was worse than Cersei or Tywin

Rick James

yeah i don’t know how the writers managed it honestly, getting people to think that. on rewatches it’s much more obvious and i’m a book fan so i’ve been inside dany’s head she wouldn’t burn the city down intentionally i am certain of it

kallista

Cersei killed however many innocent citizens when she blew up the Sept but Dany is worse than her because she didnt keep her word to a slaver that time she acquired the Unsullied apparently. The show tried to sell us that Dany was worse than Cersei when everyone knew that wasnt true

Rick James

Cersei always brought things on herself, including her own death. Jaimes fits his character so it works

Rick James

When you look at it the idea we were supposed to keep thinking Tyrion & Varys were smart probably feeds into how people feel about the ending. We see how Tyrion & Varys are affecting things but the writing keeps trying to convince us thats not whats happening.

Rick James

When you look at it the idea we were supposed to keep thinking Tyrion & Varys were smart probably feeds into how people feel about the ending. We see how Tyrion & Varys are affecting things but the writing keeps trying to convince us thats not whats happening.

Rick James

Yep. Sadly now you know how the fandom felt. If Dany had gone straight for Cersei it would’ve been fine in my book cause let’s face it, Cersei deserved what was coming for her, but the writers were like nah let’s rush this season and add shock value and mass murder for the win and…we got this instead. Like I said in another comment, would’ve preferred the series ending around 8x03 and wrapping up some of the characters arcs because like Spartan said: this just ain’t it. Feel for you guys on this one. Your reactions matched many of our own.

Meagan

Cersei always brought the bad things onto herself by being arrogant & thinking herself untouchable. Her death being what it was fits, her plot armor was ridiculous anyway but the idea we were supposed to feel bad for her while throwing Dany away was crap

Rick James

All of that just to pat yourself on the back as being "smarter" than everyone else. No one cares at this point, if the ones who continued to whine about how Danys turn was a master stroke of storytelling were actually right then the reactions by the actors wouldnt be what it was and the ramifications for the showrunners wouldnt be what they were. Instead of playing this in any way that would make sense for this character turn, the writing decided to pull a fast one by trying to make Dany look like the monster when the show refused to not stop making excuses for Cersei throughout the series.

Rick James

My comment has everything to do with your comment. It’s addressing the heart of this debate about whether this was good or bad writing. The main point of contention for many is that the show arbitrarily changes the framing of actions depending on the character, one execution gets framed as bad, while another execution gets framed as honorable or justice, so I want to know if you’re doing the same. Do you apply this standard that you’re using to evaluate Dany universally to every character? If you can’t even answer this question then there is no point going point by point on the other stuff.

Random Random

David, I agree with a lot of your logic. I don’t think having Dany go mad was a bad decision. However, it was still a terrible episode IMO. It wasnt a terrible episode because Dany went mad, it was a terrible episode because they fell short of portraying the characters (including Dany, Cersei, and Jon, with the depth they always had, they severed our emotional ties and even familiarity with the characters actions. It just felt like a different show, without the dialogue, and emotional ties we are used to. They did that well in battle with the Dead, but not here. To prove my point, this was one of the least emotional we have every seen Pudgey. She looked lost. There was a disconnect in the writing and character portrayal. I don’t think fans are as upset with Dany going mad than the lack of connection with the character(s).

Karl Lashkari

LOL!!!! Come on. You say, that you disagree with every point I made. But, yet you failed to make any points as to why. You're deflecting. And, this is usually a response, from someone who has got nothing in the tank. I want this to be a constructive debate. But, it would appear that you have nothing to contribute. I stand by my comments, about Daenerys. You, on the other hand, are looking for something else that has nothing to do with my initial comment.

David Watson

Yes, at every point. But I’m most interested in seeing if you apply this standard universally to every character within this world, where our literal first introduction into the society is an execution by the good guy of the story.

Random Random

Do you disagree with my comment?

David Watson

Took a quick glance at this comment section and I need to put my phone down. 😂🥜

wilcox2146

Also, this is how many of us felt after watching this. Even the CAST didn't like the way this ended. It goes down in television history as "Show finales that crashed and burned"... But also, Dany has always been this way. Previously, we just didn't care about the places she was destroying.

Amanda Theriault

Do you apply this “reveal who they really are” to every other character in the show that have executed people? Arya, Sansa, Robb, Jon, Stannis, The Hound, Theon, Tyrion, etc. Do those those executions count as evidence that they are mass murderers just waiting to reveal it ?

Random Random

Cool. It wasn’t mentioned at the scene. I missed if they didn’t miss it in the summary.

Jamie Neill

In the last episode he went to her and reminded her of his vow. Then told her this is a mistake.

I❤️movies&tvshows

Pudgey mentioned that was the first time she used Sandor. They didn’t miss it

I❤️movies&tvshows

Rushed storytelling to get to the end: - Varys was warned but he was quickly killed off. - Cersei’s death was massively underwhelming, however I can see a little that giving her a really insignificant death is maybe befitting of who she was. - the fleet falling & the enemy army: killed in a couple of minutes. Lacklustre. Think of the dialogue, character, pacing of the earlier seasons then this. Rushed. You guys missed Arya calling The Hound by his name, Sandor. A nice moment.

Jamie Neill

Oh my gosh, Pudgey's predictions shook me!

Amanda Theriault

Great reaction guys!!!! As usual, you never disappoint. However, I disagree with you, about this episode falling short. This episode was perfect. This is who Daenerys is. She wasn't born this way. But, she was RAISED this way and MARRIED into it. There is no sugar-coating it. She is ruthless. She used the slaves as a MOTIVATIONAL ENGINE, to conquer all of the slave cities in Essos. Mainly because she felt that she was a slave herself, under her brother's guidance and then being sold to Khal Drogo. But, when she arrived in Westeros, there was no slavery to conquer. Things in Westeros, isn't as cut-and-dry or black-and-white, as it is in Essos. What Daenerys did to the Slave Master in Astapor, should have raised a red flag. Remember. She didn't have enough money to buy the 8 thousand unsullied soldiers. So, she lied to the slave master. And promised him, that he would have the biggest dragon, for giving her the 8 thousand soldiers. What happened next, Daenerys went back on her word and had Drogon burn the Slave master to a crisp. Then she had her unsullied soldiers slaughter all of the slave master's assistants. So the question should be, why did Daenerys do that? Why did she go back on her word? The slave master never threatened her. In any way. The most the slave master did, was call her derogatory names in a language, he didn't think she would understand. That's it!!! That isn't cause to kill a person. That isn't cause to go back on your word and steal 8 thousand soldiers. But, most of the audience didn't see it that way. They saw a person who was a slave master and they were rooting for Daenerys to win. But, if you rewatch the series again, you will see that Daenerys was a ruthless individual who used Slavery as a MOTIVATIONAL ENGINE to conquer all of the slave cities in Essos. She couldn't use that in Westeros. And, the more interactions she had with the people of Westeros, the more of who she is, was slowly being revealed. When Daenerys had Sam's father and brother torched by Drogon, that should've been the 2nd red flag raised. Again. What did Sam's father do? Ok. He fought her in the field of battle. He lost. All of the Lannister and Tarly forces were down and defeated. He just decided that he wasn't going to bend the knee, to his captor. Sam's father was not a threat to Daenerys. Even Tyrion gave her great counsel, as to why she shouldn't kill him or his son. He told her, that it would be wiser to have them sitting in a cell, and let them contemplate the choices that they made. But, No. Daenerys wasn't having none of it. What you guys saw in this episode, was Daenerys revealing who she really is. Daenerys was a baby. And was whisked away, with her older brother Viserys, to Essos. She was literally raised by Viserys. We all know who Viserys was. Daenerys then gets married off to Khal Drogo. The leader of the most ferocious savages in the world. Where there is no word for "THANK YOU", in their language. LOL!!! Jorah is not specialized in the area of politics. He is a warrior first. Barristan Selmy is not specialized in the area of politics. He is a warrior first. Both of them had small pockets of wisdom, to share with Daenerys, during some of her crucial moments. But, that is very small, compared to the amount of years she has been with Viserys and Khal Drogo. Tyrion was a much better option. But, he came later on after she established herself and power. If Jorah, Barristan and Tyrion were in Daenerys's life, when she was a child, I think this episode would have turned out a bit different. But, when Jorah is dead. When Barristan is dead. And more recently, Tyrion is a Lannister, that she can't seem to trust. And, Messeindi has just been beheaded. So then the question is, "What does Daenerys have, to fall back on?" That's right folks, you just got through watching "The Bells" episode. And, what I find most amusing, is how most of us who watched the series, we are just fascinated by the Dragons. How they can fly. Look monstrous and destroy almost anything. We tend to get behind Daenerys, when she is burning people, that we the audience believe to be bad people. But, when those dragons are turned on innocent people. Or, people that we like(Varys). We tend to get upset, and get confused about why that person would do that? "They wouldn't do that?" "This is bad writing." "They needed more seasons to flesh this out." No guys. It's been fleshed out. All of the hints. All of the actions that were committed. All of the backstory is there, in all 8 seasons, for you to see the progression of Daenerys reach to this point. I am not a Daenerys hater. In any way. But, this is who Daenerys is. She wasn't born this way. She was RAISED this way. She MARRIED into it. She just decided to unleash it. Is Daenerys the mad queen? NO. Is Daenerys her father? NO. But, what she did in this episode, is a result of some of the things I pointed out earlier. There are more hints that I can point out. But, I didn't want to write a book about it. At least not yet. LOL!!!!! Again. Great reaction guys. However, I disagree with you about this episode falling short. This episode was perfect.

David Watson

lol i'm not apologizing for the writing. it was terribly done, rushed and ultimately unearned. it needed way more build up to be believable, so i understand why people were confused or angry. but my opinion is hardly convoluted.

connie

I remember way before the show ended there was an article about a. AI thing or something that mathematically figured out the odds of each character ending up “on the throne” at the end and the highest was Bran. That made me laugh at the time and I had forgotten about it by the time the finale aired but it really did seem to come out of nowhere. Even reading the books I knew Bran had a destiny for something special but never thought about him being king.

AG

everyone was willing to give D and D more seasons but they couldn't bother, if they had maybe it would have worked. Who knows, I wonder if the books will go the same way, I think it have some minor differences and slow build up as it should be

Abby

I don't know if this is against the rules, forgive me if it is. There are no spoilers for the final episode, but here's the casts interpretation of Dany's decision to go Mad. https://youtu.be/VzWZ2xfuf-4

Adam Ramirez

There's a fan made cut where Dany and Drogon are perched as the bells ring but you hear all the quotes from Dany about burning her enemies, quotes from those who loved her and served her and died for her. It does provide a little more context to her contemplating going to town on Kings Landing.

Adam Ramirez

To be fair, they waited till the last minute to try and humanize Kings Landing. They should have spent more time on that if you wanted a more relatable reaction from viewers. I thought they spent way too much time on the ground in the second half of the episode on people we don't know or really care about. Would have liked to see more of Dany and Drogon.

Adam Ramirez

Honestly I love it too, would have been nice to see that last arch portrayed over the course of a season but oh well. The question now is, will Martin change the trajectory of the character arch in the books based on viewer reactions?

Adam Ramirez

going back to the high sparrow being a cult leader which I do feel he was and nothing else, remember the scene with Sandor and the priest that got hanged and was his friend, what the guy said about the gods? That he could not possibly know what they wanted. The sparrow always claimed he knew exactly, he acted like God and people listened to him. Claiming you know a god and that you have that kind of authority conected to you is a n extremely effective way of controlling people, that is the essence of religion and how it worked when only the church was permitted to be able to read etc. Look again and say I am wrong

Abby

Innocent slave masters.... because she took no time to find out the guilty ones, when we are straight up told there were masters that spoke out against it. Slavery is wrong, it took a lot of death to get rid of it in the US, but the Union didn't go around executing every plantation owner in the South.

J_Fley .

Maybe Jon lost more of himself than we realize after he died and was brought back. But if GRRRRRM really hated this ending and didn’t think it’s how he’d end his series, he’s had MANY YEARS to correct that and release the “truth” via the books. I suspect this isn’t that far off overall on what he imagined, it’s mainly the execution that’s off, and he’s in a panic seeing all the hate and wondering how to make it work in the books. (Prove me wrong, George, and publish sequels. If you don’t like the show ending, PROVE IT WRONG, don’t just talk—you’re the only person who can OFFICIALLY redo this, and even if you DO keep a lot of these plot points, I’m convinced you can make them make sense in your writing in a way that the show failed.)

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

@Leslie You’re fooling yourself if you think at this point in the story that Arya’s a priestess of death itself. She was on the path, but it was very clear she gave it the finger when she left after J told her finally a girl is no one, and she spat back, “A girl is Arya Stark, and she is going home.” If anything, the god of death should have it in for Arya for quitting (and she was a very crappy “servant” while in the house of Black and White in the show—she never followed assassination orders, for Lady Crane OR for the Thin Man, but she helped herself to killing someone who hadn’t been promised to the god of death because he was on her personal list).

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

The show writers were approaching this as if Cersei was an addiction for Jaime. One can debate over whether that’s a good interpretation or not, but if you take that at face value, it makes perfect sense that he goes running back to an addition, even when he “should” know better or have his life straight. People slam their hands on the self-destruct buttons of their lives all the time, and it’s very common to see people let their demons get the better of them, even when they had seemed to overcome them or be living better without. In my mind, if what he REALLY wanted was to die in the arms of the woman he loves, and if he really did love Cersei as much as we wish he didn’t, he had one opportunity to get the death he wanted (because as much as Tyrion gave them an out, I think the brothers knew Cersei would die that day), and he took it. I think that’s very in-character for him, even if we don’t approve. Note I’m only addressing the SHOW here, because this reaction channel is not reacting to the books. In the SHOW, I think Jaime got a fitting ending.

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

If it was a threat throughout the whole show just how do you come up with it being resolved “in one episode?” Was the death of the Night King supposed to span multiple episodes because that’s what it would have taken to satisfy your expectations apparently. No,lots of stuff happened with the Night King and white walkers that all led up to a battle. The battle, just like Blackwater or the battle of the bastards, took place over one whole episode and, like them, it was over. So that’s basically following the previous script for battles, one night, dead leader or army, battle over, SAME THING! All of these had many shows leading up to one show with the big moment.

Uncle Steve

Even though she mocked her brother for believing the people drank secret toasts and sowed dragon banners and pined for their true ruler, I wonder if part of Dany believed it deep down and was disappointed that when she showed up to “save” the city, no one was cheering or happy—they were just terrified of her. She called her brother stupid to believe those things, but I think a tiny part of her hoped it was true, and was disappointed the people didn’t love her when she arrived and wiped out the Lannister army and Golden Company. If they had, I wonder if she’d still have burned the city.

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

There has been a lot of foreshadowing of Dany's turn to full dragon. I mean if you think about it, back in the red waste Dany told the leaders of Qarth, "My dragons will lay waste to army's, burn city's to the ground. Turn us away and we'll burn you first", Certainly doesn't justify her actions or make her a better choice than John but still, I can see why she would flip. It would have been better to map out her decent into madness over a longer period of time. She doesn't need the peoples love because she knows she'll never get it. She told John "Let if be fear". I don't agree with the writers decisions on Dany's character arch at this point but it's not entirely unreasonable to expect her not to snap. These are the same people that wanted Tyrian executed, that mocked Jamie even though he saved them from the Mad King. Spit and shit on Cersei (totally justified in that case). Obviously there are innocent lives as well but again, Dany decided one city could fall, and the rest of Westeros will fear her.

Adam Ramirez

Varys died as a consequence he was willing to risk. And so that Tyrion would lose his best friend and his brother in the same episode. And to symbolically show that the realm was no longer being served, just before its capital was burned.

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

Everything you wrote can easily be observed by simply watching the show, no need to watch any extra Videos.

DrückebergerTV

@suddenimpulse Yes, but we just got through a season of Bran saying he can never be the lord of Winterfell, he can never be the lord of anything. It is a jump to go from that to saying he should be king. A jump that can be made, ok, but a jump.

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

Exactly right, I suggested they watch one of the several compilation videos showing her threats and willingness to be ruthless chronicled throughout the entire show. It was there just the whole time. We had just been waiting the whole season for the moment after flipping the coin to see which side it landed on and we did, madness.

Uncle Steve

Someone’s probably left this comment already, but the white horse at the end = Bran the warg got Arya a taxi/Uber/Lyft to gtfo.

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

@Druck I find your defense to be significantly lazier. I'm aware that the storyteller decides when to kill their characters, thanks. I respect your attempt to defend the show but you don't seem to understand half the criticism you defend. I don't give a shit if Arya lives or dies, I simply hate that scene for being beyond illogical. I'm clearly not going to change your mind, so please don't waste any more of your time on me.

Munir

You go back and listen to Dany all throughout the series and the things she said and threatened. You’ll see the clues were there all along. There are several videos with compilations of her threats throughout that are very enlightening when viewed together one after the other. THE ONE THING EVERYBODY KNOWS IS THAT WITH TARGARYENS ITS A COIN TOSS, half are mad and the other half not so bad. We know Raegar was kind and Viserys was a POS so it was to be seen with Dany. The mad king was a decent person when younger and grew more paranoid with age. She snapped, watch one of those compilations, very interesting. Despite what people whine about I’m glad to hear Spartan speak for you both when he gave the show the real respect it deserves especially considering the incredible amount of crap programming they come up with on TV. It’s easily one of the best series ever made and people are way too harsh judging it because of an admittedly rushed ending rather than judging all of it and the joy it gave us watching it as a whole.

Uncle Steve

Unfortunately they don't make the plot points very clear. You have to watch the "inside the episode" to understand Dany's headspace. She's lost her kids, she lost almost everyone who does love her, her own advisors have now turned against her, John no longer is interested in her as a lover because she's his aunt, and they couldn't defeat the night king OR Cersei without her. Varys was plotting to poison her, Sansa was working to undermine her, her allies in the south and east are dead. She really has nothing left. I don't like that they went this route with Dany but I do understand her calluses and support her burning down the city. Collateral damage.

Adam Ramirez

Varys was trying to have her poisoned. That was the purpose of his conversation with the little girl at the start of the episode. At that point he has to go.

Adam Ramirez

THIS IS WHY IT MATTERS THAT JON DID NOT HAVE TO BEND THE KNEE TO DANY TO SAVE THE NORTH! She agreed to help defeat the army of the dead BEFORE he called her ‘my queen.’ If he had not done that, if had not made her the queen of the north, he could have called the northern army out of this fight and gone home when Dany lost it and started burning the city. Or maybe they wouldn’t even have been there right now because he’d have taken Sansa’s advice to let the army recover before going to another battle. Or maybe the northern army wouldn’t have followed Dany to the south for this battle at all. ONLY because Jon bowed to Dany was he now compelled be here and stay and keep his army involved here in this horror show.

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

Danys Story was developed over 8 seasons, if that wasnt enough, 20 more seasons would not have made any difference.

DrückebergerTV

Another complaint is: the writing is bad. So i ask again: how is more bad writing improving the story?

DrückebergerTV

Yes, she didnt know because she just killed 163 random masters without figuring out who were responsible and in need of punishment. Thats what i meant with D&D did a better Job at dany than George did. No, George told them after season 3 what the endgame would be for all major characters and D&D laid the groundwork for it. She was worried she would lose the love of the people. She did stay and Tyrion was the one actually resolving the mess she left. Dany said multiple times she would butn citys to the ground. Thats her character talking, thats no foreshadowing, thats development. She wanted to burn 3 slave citys tobthe ground in 6x9 when she still had her all children, trust in the advisors, her armies and her claim to the throne just because she was angry. Tyrion had to talk her out of that. She wanted to do an even more devastating thing at that point than what she eventually did in season 8.

DrückebergerTV

All opinions are respectable. I think anyone I would have liked all the seasons to have 10 chapters, exactly the same thing happening, but without time travel for example

ruth cueva

Plot armor is nothing more than lazy criticism. Characters die when the storyteller wants them to die, they are not gonna die in any situation they could have died. Thats not how storytelling works.

DrückebergerTV

I think people who like this season would disagree its shit.

DrückebergerTV

Absolutely! It was MORE than foreshadowed. And when you watch the episodes back-to-back, Dany losing her shit was foreshadowed multiple times.

David Thomas

Just remember that Cersei’s death wasn’t about her getting the death we wanted her to have—it was about giving Jaime the death that HE always wanted to have (dying in the arms of the woman he loves). Jaime did terrible things and heroic ones; he deserved to die how he wanted to die. Cersei just happened to be a crucial role in that. If you think about her death just serving to give Jaime what he wanted (for once!), it’s more tolerable.

Don’tDrinkTheLuminol

I just rewatched their reaction and only the reaction without the episode next to it. Pudgeys expression for most of the episode was like ":O" and they are really disgusted at jaimes and cerseis Reunion and death lol

DrückebergerTV

Its interesting we never actually saw her sit on the throne. In the vision or in the next episode.

Ailene Evangelista

False call, Dany didn't know that any of the masters had spoken out against it. When Hizdahr confronted her with that truth she was visibly shocked and regretful, and she gave him permission to bury his father (btw this development with Hizdahr's father was a show addition - no such thing happened in the books). They shoehorned that in there because around season 3, by D&D's admission, they came up with the Jon/Dany ending and the Mad Queen arc in general. As steveo said, her time in Meereen was marked by incredible restraint - quite counter to her House's words. She chained up her dragons, her children, because she was worried they would hurt people. This decision had a huge impact on her political standing in Meereen and made ruling much harder - and she only stayed to help the people and end slavery (again a testament to her character). A far greater testament than a vision of burnt down Red Keep, the idea of hereditary madness or a desire to use her most effective weapons of war against enemy soldiers. @Jenny Tolls: Foreshadowing is NOT character development. Intermittent mentions of Targaryen madness and visions are meaningless if they aren't framing character choices that point towards such a drastic act. OP is absolutely right, there are no instances anyone can point to (outside of season 8) where Dany takes action to which this madness would be a logical next step. The examples being thrown around are such a double standard and I feel that people are quite disingenuous - we all understand the morality of the world we're watching. And even the harshest action, like killing that "innocent" master 👀, is in no way an indication that Dany would burn down a city of innocent men, women and children. Not the Dany whose entire arc has been about protecting and freeing them.

Mzuka

Yes! The way the white walker threat was resolved in just one episode never sat right with me either. The Night King was this looming threat over the whole show so I didn’t get making Dany the central villain in the end but 🤷🏻‍♀️

Ailene Evangelista

I’m not one of the people who hate the entire season. Like Spartan and Pudgey I actually loved the first 4 episodes. If they continued in that vein and had more time to develop the plot over an extended period, I would have loved more seasons.

Ailene Evangelista

Yes it would, one of the main complaints people have is how rushed it is. If D&D wanted to do the madness arc, they should have taken the time to write it over several seasons, cause no amount of good writing or "foreshadowing" can make a character flip that fast feel genuine. In the same vein, they could have taken a season to deal with the Long Night so that it felt, you know, LONG.

Mzuka

Im just wondering: why do people want more season if the writing is already bad? More wont make it better for you.

DrückebergerTV

Reading unreflected comments like that makes me more sure that D&D did the right thing.

DrückebergerTV

Northeners already killed innocent women who slept with lannister soldiers under robbs reign in 2x9. Jon gets traumatized because this is a slaughter of civilians, not a battlefield fight.

DrückebergerTV

This fandom is lost.

DrückebergerTV

The show has a weird cognitive dissonance with Tyrion near the end. Everyone calls him smart and Dany continues to have faith in him even though he causes way more damage to her than anyone.

Munir

It's not the same, Azula was evil from the beginning.

Munir

@Druck So you're saying that it wasn't plot armor and even if it was, it doesn't matter? How am I supposed to respond to that? And the fact that she didn't die when literally everyone else around her did is okay because she didn't get hurt either?? You have a weird definition of plot armor.

Munir

@Leslie The show having magic and the "supernatural" doesn't excuse them completely destroying any sense of tension with her character. When I see a long scene of her repeatedly survive what no one else around her is able to, I stop thinking that she can be hurt at all because she's so special, and then I'm not invested. I guess the showrunners are technically gods of the world and they didn't want her dead, so you're not completely wrong.

Munir

Again, putting dany in a victim role, selfcritic is a hard thing it seems, shannon.

DrückebergerTV

She killed Hizdarhs father by cruzifying him, when ne spoke up against cruzifying of the children. He fed a random Master to her dragons without knowing if he had anything to do with sons of the Harpy. Steveo, you are advicating for dany just killing everyone is what she wanted to do in 6x9 until tyrion stopped her. Burning citys means burning innocents in bay of dragons as well.

DrückebergerTV

Its too late for surrender. Dany already made up her mind, she cant trust these people at all after everything that happened and is not loved no matter what she does.

DrückebergerTV

Its telling that you can only insult, not make any productive points. Its sag that someone who claims to be "the biggest fan" doesnt understand hus favorite Story.

DrückebergerTV

Not with disney and Star wars. They make Deals long before a story is on the table or even discussed. Thats why they are having trouble developing New movies in the first place, people get fired or walk off before a story is even rendered. Even if it they made Deal 3 years before 2018, it doesnt change anything. D&Ds Plan was always to do 7 seasons.

DrückebergerTV

People in the Story saying that someone went mad, only do so, because they dont have medical and psychologially data like we have now. Aerys didnt go "mad" either, he was taken captive for a long time and was treated inhumanely. Thats why he became paraniod and developed schizophrenia that made him hear voices. Dany didnt even heard voices and was treated that badly like him and still did much worse thing than he was about to do.

DrückebergerTV

PLEASE READ!!!!!!! 1). In Season 1 in the house of the undying Dany saw herself touching the throne with ashes falling all around her foreshadowing this! 2). Throughout her Journey she had always said when she took the 7 Kingdoms she would burn cities to the ground (like Quarth) and had NO problem killing the ones who didn’t agree with her or betrayed her. Her friend in the dungeon. Remember when she killed that guy in front of everyone and the entire crowd got angry and started stoning her! The Masters even the innocent ones! The Tarlys! 3). She had been taught nothing but abuse, rape, rage, and the Iron Throne and that who were living in it murdered her family and tried to do the same to her! 4). Remember, that Brann also had a vision of one dragon shadow flying over Kings Landing which would indicate only 1 would survive to be there. 5). She may have been beautiful, good hearted, caring, loyal, BUT she has always been the ruthless MOTHER OF DRAGONS from the beginning! No character change for me

Tyler Janes

I know. her character has now become a tyrant, she believes she is a liberator... I only think of Emilia, poor thing, 12 years of loving and building her character to end up like this... the possibility of her madness has always been there, but it existed the possibility of not ending like this because initially this is not what he fought for. I wouldn't have waited to attack Cercei, as I landed in Rocadragon I would have gone for her, only for her... Dany has gone crazy, completely. I really think she did a lot to be loved, it didn't turn out as expected because Westeros isn't Essos and she also lost absolutely everything and got mad... there's no justification for that. I guess it was their destiny since season two... the destruction of Tyrion and Jon's character has hurt me more than Dany's... regardless of whether you like it or not, season 8 is the worst, I still think that they deserved it just like season 7 10 episodes

ruth cueva

Its not plotarmor, if shes not Hit by it at all. If she were and would still be walking like nothing happened, that would be more questioniable, but still wouldnt ruin anything.

DrückebergerTV

Dany is just starting wars, not finishing them. 8x6 shows that she is not done at all until all are liberated. She wants to kill everyone that doesnt love her, thats tyrany, not building a better world.

DrückebergerTV

Yes, i did. Then preserve your judgment to the books and dont blame the shows Story for not meeting your expectations regarding the book Story.

DrückebergerTV

Yes. ALL the people who just fought for the survival of humanity decides to turn right around and start raping and murdering. So, I guess the moral of the story is…

Izattyi

Stop trying to apologize for this bat crap turd of an episode with convoluted head cannon.

Izattyi

Thats not foreshadowing. And foreshadowing is not narrative.

Izattyi

Are you ok? You don’t sound ok.

Shay

I make no excuses for cersei, both are lost at the end. I am explaining why cersei does the things she does, she doesnt do it for Power like spartan likes to think. She does it for her children and she needs to stay in Power to ensure their survival.

DrückebergerTV

The reason people are fine with the Red Wedding is because it happened 10 years ago already in the books and its from Martin. Imagine there were only 2 books and red Wedding happened in the show first, how "fans" would react. People already reacted with hate and deathwishes for the makers of this show when it aired when there was source material. If there wasnt they would say the same how robbs character was ruined, his arc was pointless and they only did it for shockvalue. Let alone what people would say if Lady Stoneheart was show original, how it would undermine everything and its just a shocking Twist for the Sake of it. You contradict yourself by stating that its not what happened and then go on wishing for 2 more seasons.... yes, the Golden company was hyped for 8 seasons, the only reason we watched the show was to see them.

DrückebergerTV

@dominic: people like to play dumb with this scene and ignore all the context around it. This was jaime at his lowest and he is doing the same thing there that he did in 8x4: spreading selfhatred. In 8x5 he also uses his kingslayer persona to justify his action he knows are wrong but cant help himself to return to cersei. Its not like he wants those people to die, he us not a Monster but there is truth to his statement that he never cared about commonfolk as well. If he did, he would have been outraged at what his father did at the sacking of kingslanding, plundering of riverlands or Red Wedding. Or cerseis Trial. He never complained about any of it. He would propably say he would do the same to protect his family. Did he save million innocents by killing aerys? Yes. But i would argue heavy Factor for that decision was saving his own life and that of his father as well. Even Ramsay would have done the same to save his life and his fathers and people wouldnt call him Champion of the people. Btw: that scene was done so emotionally about jaime breaking down because of innocent by D&D. In the books its more about details of roberts rebellion, not that emotionally at all with emphasis on the innocent and the mad kings intent.

DrückebergerTV

I agree with every decision, Munir.

DrückebergerTV

Can we try to be civil and stop insulting each other and the commentators?

Richard Kraupa

@Alex We are talking about the fact that S&P thought Daenerys was wrong for executing Varys, and we’re pointing out why it made sense that she, as a ruler who was being betrayed by her advisor, was “in the right”, just as much as any other ruler would’ve been too. And btw, Varys wasn’t stupid for accepting it and dying – he was stupid for making his treason obvious in the first place. The man was supposed to be a resourceful spymaster, one of the smartest men in the 7 kingdoms who has served multiple rulers, and D&D had him revealing his plan of conspiring against and assassinating the queen to the QUEEN’S HAND. So yeah, no one is excusing the overall shitty writing. We were making a point about something else.

Zakki

Had Dany not listened to Tyrion and Vary's advice from the very beginning once she landed in Westeros, it wouldn't have gone this far. Before everyone crowded in the streets under the red keep this episode, she could have destroyed it along with Cersei in episode 1 and minimized casualties. This is why I don't feel bad about Vary's death. We can't pretend like there won't be casualties in war and that everyone can to be saved in the end. Their advice to Daenerys was unrealistic from the beginning. Vary's/ Tyrions incompetence and their role in Deanery's eventual spiral into insanity is far too overlooked because they're likeable characters. In the end, they weren't as smart as we thought they were and it's hard for people to accept it.

Supreme Leader

@joker1 oh, I'm not at all justifying her. she went off in the worst way and it wasn't at all justified, none of those people did anything to her. but in HER mind, deluded and muddled with paranoia, anger and whatnot, she believed she was doing right, by "cleansing" king's landing of cersei's tyranny. in HER mind, she perceived them as corrupted by cersei's lies and manipulations. their plea for cersei's help (help us! queen cersei, ring the bells!) instead of embracing her as their savior, reinforced her belief that they were beyond saving, as they did not rise up against cersei when she arrived to liberate them, and even when dany won, they did not cheer, they did not turn on cersei to go get her, they were terrified and fearful of dany, she wasn't their savior, she was the villain, because of cersei. so in her mind, she saw no other option but to show them the only "mercy" she believed she could give, which was death. her aim was to protect future generations from experiencing the grip of another tyrant like cersei. she believed that by eliminating those who were tainted by cersei's influence, she could create a world where future generations would only know her rule and be free from any more chains of tyranny, mental or otherwise. @leslie lloyd-rodriguez. exactly. It is actually chilling. when she couldn't fulfill her initial vision of being the beloved savior and liberator, she instead adopted a distorted liberator role, who believed she was freeing the people from the perceived mental chains of tyranny. it's her minds way of justifying her evil actions here.

connie

you realize the writers chose to have 6 episodes...

Alex

Danny was always supposed to go mad it was George RR Martins plan so say hes a bad writer the problem is the execution's and the rushed season. Danny going mad is the biggest tragedy ever and I love it.

Alex

The problem is Varys accepting it and dying. Him dying is not for the good of the realm he's smarter than that. Shitty writing stop making excuses

Alex

it waas a horse toy the little girl was holding with her mother

SnorlaX

10 years for this??

SnorlaX

i don’t want to sound like a broken record like maybe the other comments are saying, but this in my opinion was completely out of character for dany. and even if it was, they really should’ve prolonged her descent into madness. in seasons 7 and 8, i feel like they tried to slowly depict it but didn’t do a good enough job because maybe they wanted to shock people or something? i genuinely don’t know. and the hypocrisy that some reactors (not y’all i don’t think) show towards dany confuses me. bc men will kill people that disobey them and apparently that’s fine but dany killing murderers and slavers isn’t okay? i just again don’t necessarily understand why they seemingly portrayed it this way almost on purpose. i understood and still understand why dany and grey worm were incredibly angry, both of them and i understand why they reacted this way, but i don’t think dany would snap like this in all honesty. also i do think her killing varys was justified, he attempted to poison her when in all honesty if he had just simply left westeros instead, he would probably still be alive.

kallista

Hilariously enough, Azula goes batshit in the same amount of time Dany does but no one bats an eye? Why? Cause they expect her to be on the losing side. Azula doesn't reflect the audience but instead what is wrong with the world in ATLA. Let's also remember that Azula, despite being pretty monstrous, is very aware, tactical, and has an incisive mind. She is around-ish Dany's age and grew up a Noble for real and yet she still loses her shit and fast. She is concerned about betrayal, paranoid about power, etc etc etc. People just don't like being duped and feeling like they are 'the baddies'. Au contraire mon freur, this episode reveals who is Fire Nation Nazi's and who won't fall for it. Fire and Blood, Phoenix King, Empires, its all the same.

Darth Sckolar

....so we see tons of "supernatural" interference through the show and people are still thinking that Aria, as a priestess of Death itself, is serving on dumb luck? Only to be granted an exit from a White Horse, while she's painted in the charred and dusted flesh of enemies and innocent alike? Y..you're..kidding right?

Darth Sckolar

Welcome to the senselessness of war. You want to be entertained happy clappy and slobber at the screen when you get to proclaim 'we won' to escape from reality or you want to face a sobering take at how our civilization has been built from the beginning and how it's still held up? 'I don't feel good. This is stupid.' Yep. Just about sums it up.

Darth Sckolar

agree with you except for one thing. She didn't break the wheel. She undid what her ancestor Aegon did in order to establish an entirely new wheel.

Darth Sckolar

My question is, and it is a serious one, why does a character need to sink for awhile into madness? Why must someone take time to 'Go Mad'? When did we get that idea? Back in the 80's to the 2000's there was an idea of 'going postal'. Some dude just walks into work and shoots up the place. Finally had enough. You don't snap in slow motion. When you snap your fingers, it happens in a second, just like it does your mind. The graphic novel 'The Killing Joke' investigated what it would take to make your average man insane. The conclusion was that if you line it up right, all it would take for most people, is just a simple push in the right direction. How many people do you know say they will 'murder an entire persons family' or commit some kind of atrocity if their parents/family/loved ones were hurt or killed? People do all types of acts of violence, that are relatively nonsensical in the long run. Now give them the identity of a prophesied hero, a legend of their own grandeur, a personal highly trained army, and weapons of mass destruction. That explains Daenaerys Targaryen, she of the many titles, perfectly for me.

Darth Sckolar

Shannon you're wrong. Lol. Cersei is not her enemy. Westeros is and the writing has indicated that for 4 damned seasons. Cersei is just a figurehead for Dany as well as a black mirror. Question: If this is not how anger works, then why did the Columbine shooting happen? Give people enough range and capability and they WILL commit atrocities

Darth Sckolar

Agreed. This is very similar to Thanos' argument in Endgame. Those who have things taken from them will never accept the new leader fully, but those who have never known anything different will. Its villainy pure and simple. Copium is strong with these people. But just goes to show you who would support a second Weimar republic. It's all around us. That's what the show reveals about our neighbors. And it's chilling.

Darth Sckolar

I will be looking for your comments for now on. Brilliant take. Might be confirmation bias but when those who agree with you have breakdowns like this, welp, hard to doubt yerself and them.

Darth Sckolar

You good person, must not be familiar with reddit or youtube. I assure you, there are DROVES. I don't even have a tiktok. Nice try tho! Oh need proof? Just clamor through season after season of got reactions and their comments. Proof ain't just in the puddin, they use it as a plate and a garnish.

Darth Sckolar

Yeee not feeling u here man. If you're going to pan Dany, you better pan Cersei as well. Equal rights and lefts. Cersei is a spineless, tyrant who ends up a blubbering mess when faced with the reality of their situation and the absolute humanity they possess, just as their 'lessers. When they have to pay the piper just like the peasants all of that noble strength goes out the window and we see them for what they are. We can empathize for Cersei sure, as another confused human who didn't know their lane and now must pay the price.

Darth Sckolar

You. This. All of this. Exactly! The heroic stories only have happy endings in the stories. On the ground floor, its horror. People who say its bad writing are either on the bandwagon or are in denial that they are those who are, with their heart, committing the atrocities along side Dany. They want to believe that they are in the right, on the side of good, but when faced with the stare of what their desires mean, they blink.

Darth Sckolar

who is saying season 8 is good BRO? lol

Richard Kraupa

Bro can you shut the hell up , stop acting like season 8 is good , I’m the biggest GOT fan on the planet and have been watching it since the early days but this season is terrible and completely rushed. stop being in denial.

JonSnow21

Oh god , here’s some retarded dany Stan who thinks losing someone gives you the right to burn thousands of children like get ur self checked into a mental hospital if you agree with her decision 😂.

JonSnow21

Exactly Why the hell did Pudgey say that? Obviously it’s Dany controlling dragon like what!?!?

JonSnow21

U do realize that’s a minority of stupid teen girls who are on Twitter and tiktok who support a psycho for burning a city full of kids , not the majority

JonSnow21

The last three episodes are just awful, in my opinion, and pretty much everyone's opinions. It's unfortunate because the writing was so bad, but the cinematography and CGI and even acting was amazing. The actors tried their hardest to do what they could despite knowing the whole thing was a trashfire. I feel so sad for the actors putting so much into this series only to be screwed over by the directors in the end. (The directors sped the last seasons up because they wanted to go work on a new Star Wars related project.) Just awful. Everyone is hoping that House of the Dragon can redeem things somewhat.

Plinko Zoinks

Ok I’m confused about why your trying to explain the actions in her mind , she’s insane , I’m not sure if your trying to justify her actions.

JonSnow21

Spartan's bewilderment and Pudgey's awkward laughing at the end lmfao EXACTLY guys, exactly. If only we could have gotten another two full seasons, I would have loved to see Dany's descent into madness actually written well, instead of giving me whiplash with how quickly everything unfolded. Also, cannot believe Pudgey correctly guessed Bran would be king lol.

Ailene Evangelista

This is how I was feeling watching this too. I was so shocked because it seemed a complete character assassination (regarding Dani). Watching it back, I do see where there may have been *some* foreshadowing, but not enough to justify the outcome. I can't imagine Season 1 Dani doing anything like this. She would be horrified. It's something her brother would do since he only cared about power and getting his crown. Dani was deeper than that... Or so we thought. Pudgey I know you have to be especially heartbroken cause you were cheerleader from day one. I'll have more to say after you finish the finale. 🙏

thank u next

P.S. - Thank you for the shoutout, Spartan (re: Ramsey’s quote)! Haha glad you read this ❤️‍🔥

Brent LaFlam

Arya brutally murders entire families and feeds them to family members as vengeance. Doesn’t mean it would make sense for her character to just start murdering innocent children, with the show justifying this progression over the span of an episode.

Random Random

They tend to better in the North.

Darth Sckolar

It was difficult re-watching this tragedy

MeanAngel

Everyone really forgets what Syrio taught us. Do not watch, see with your own eyes. See what is really there.

Darth Sckolar

Hell they rubbed it in our faces. There are lines explicitly said about her roasting people when she gets angry.

Darth Sckolar

Supercuts Delight does that perfectly

Max Martin

He did tell her. She didn't care. Didn't you see last episode?

Darth Sckolar

Are we watching the same show? She has been the ideal college feminist authoritarian the entire time. From the gate she has been burning her enemies and proclaiming her morality above all with others pleading with her every step of the way to not go full trogdor(burninate the country-side). Dany has ALWAYS been this way and the excellent and tragic dupe is to make people believe that this colonizing, patronizing, drinking her own kool-aid, simp-mama, snow-white looking baddie that rides reptilian WMD's is the honest to god best thing for the realm. That's the literary joke and morality play of the show and the story as a whole. People like you. Show them a pretty face and they'll follow a madman into oblivion. We are so easily swayed, so easily controlled by those in power, that we would give up our good sense just to see them lord over us. If you can't see that's the warning of this story, you haven't been paying attention.

Darth Sckolar

This episode gives me the worst headache every time I watch it. Which has only been three times, because it’s by far the worst episode. Still an amazing show, but just a terrible episode.

Amber Mary

So i am 100% on Spartan´s side with this one and tbh i dont get the people who say Dany completely changes. Dany is killing people out of vengance and/or to gain power left and right since season 1... very different to John. And the Show made a point of it more than once. The only reason most people are willing to justifiy her actions with "she killed bad people" is because we all have been simping for Dany since Episode 1.

Philipp Lembens

As soon as she was like “hear me out…” i knew she was gonna say Bran.

AG

yeah the baby murder for no reason was a bit much

Jake Follain

I hate it when people don't understand the not so subtle difference between collateral damage in war and the morality surrounding that, which actually was alluded to in past episodes, and literally targeting babies, women and children. Had she gone for the Red Keep, and accepted in her mind the losses by doing so due to the human shields Cersei placed there, it would have made sense character wise. Instead she actually ignores Cersei and takes the time to kill everyone in the city before targeting her. Anyone defending this sudden change in character actually just don't understand this difference, the difference being intent.

Jake Follain

Yessss, let the hate flow through you. It's okay, we all went through this when it came out. It's going to take you some time to process the mess you just saw.

Kelschman

The civilians have nothing to do with the bells. Dany is angry about her friend and dragon being killed by Cersei, great, awesome, then go for the Red Keep. When I'm wronged by someone I don't go up to a random baby and punch it in the face, that's not how any person works when they're angry or have been wronged, I seek vengeance on the actual person who wronged me, perhaps it would make sense if she kills innocents on her way to doing that and she sees it as a means to an end, but she literally ignores Cersei and nearly lets her escape. Her "snapping" would have been going for the red keep against all the advice of her advisors and killing the human shields there as collateral, a by product, but one she accepted. That would have made sense. It would still make her the Mad Queen, but at least you could imagine why she could do it. It's quite simple really, there is no spectacle in her only burning the Red Keep, much more cinematic and epic not to mention shocking, to have the whole city burn.

Jake Follain

It was not foreshadowing. In the original scene it was snow falling, not ash. Implying winter came, and winter did not come, in fact they completely forgot that winter had come to Kings Landing, in Season 7 they depicted snow falling there, in Season 8 Kings Landing miraculously transforms into a desert. Yeah, like Shannon said, anger and "snapping" is her going for the Red Keep, what her advisors told her to avoid, that's bad enough. Cersei is the one who killed her best friend and her dragon, the children on the streets did not, focusing her anger on them makes zero sense. In fact she almost lets Cersei escape while she was torching the whole city. Her ACTUAL enemy. But of course there's no spectacle if the whole city doesn't burn.

Jake Follain

True story

Nicole

Bro this is surely David Benioff or Dan Weiss' alt account lol

Mango Maniac

Yeah I was kinda disappointed that S&P never realized that the reason Jon no longer wants to be with her sexually is because he's weirded out by the aunt-nephew thing, incest is definitely not normal for him like it is for Dany who was raised with Targ values.

Mango Maniac

I don't dislike season 8 like a lot of people but the one thing I didn't care for was that Cersei should have had a more "personal" death.

David Cansler

I say Lindsay Ellis “The Last of the Game of Thrones Hot Takes.” Would be fun to see them react and discuss her points of criticism. To balance it out they could also react to a video of someone praising season 8 and discuss those points of praise.

Random Random

This is such a terrible episode. It still upsets and frustrates me every time. The way you guys are feeling is how most of us felt when we watched it, show and book readers alike.

SuddenImpulse

The Season 8 Pitch Meeting is pretty awesome. "Oh, the Golden Company! Those guys were built up to be badasses! What do they do??" "Die immediately". The YouTuber Mauler has a series rant on season 8 that is longer than all the SW movies combined.

Shannon Bey

Are you two doing a House of the Dragon rewatch after the final episode?

Ljh

There's a billion ways they could have gone mad queen Dany without the most abrupt face heel turn in history. Not to mention the lawnmowering of King's Landing. Like... that's not how anger works. Anger is her going straight for the Red Keep, preferably at eye level with Cersei's window, and burning her to cinders despite the surrender. They could have had a way that the people of KL set Dany off, like if THEY had killed Rhaegal and the people had cheered and torn his body apart. Instead, she looks long and hard at the Red Keep, harboring both her greatest enemy since Robert and the focus of her desires and she's like "nah, I'll get to that later". Instead of going with Spartan's "Jon would be better" then pre-rage Dany, sure, no problem. But as much hatred as they have for Cersei, and she almost gets away with Jaime if he hadn't been suddenly triggered (despite nothing in Jaime's character arc showing him quick to anger or taunts) by Discount Jack Sparrow.

Shannon Bey

Yeah, this episode ruined the show for me. They spent 8.5 seasons building her up to NOT be like the Mad King. The whole point of a story with character developement is to give the audience a fictional aspiration. This show seemed to want to purposefully poke the audience in the eye just for some emotional shock to our system or something. When this episode ends, you feel sick and frustrated and incomplete...That's something a season finale does....not the SERIES finale.... back in like season 4 or 5, Jaime foreshadowed his death when he was talking to Bron about how we would die. He said he would die in the arms of the women he loves. Cersei's death was....unsatisfying. I mean, every character we had killed in front of us got some awful death, but no not Cersei...the writers said....NOPE, lets let a rock fall on her. I disliked her MORE than Joffrey! I can't believe I'm saying that! The ONLY thing about this episode I like was the Hound Vs the Mountain.

Nate Terry

Varys did not go and talk to Dany when he thought she was doing the wrong thing. That was the conversation between the two of them and she said that if he betrayed her that he would be burned and he agreed. Varys should have went to Dany.

David Cansler

every one of dany's problems in slavers bay can be traced to her being far TOO merciful to the masters. if she used fire and blood it would have been done a lot quicker and easier. the fact that there are ANY slaver-owners left alive in mereen after she saw what they did to those children is a clear testament to dany's restraint. she could have done away with them and fucked off to westeros, instead she chose to stay and help. and yet somehow - the fact that she was vicious towards the group of people who crucified their child-slaves is meant to be foreshadowing of her willingness to burn down a city full of innocent people? BS.

Jeezleberry

The amount of raw, unmitigated delusion that is required to proclaim this to be the best episode of the series cannot be overstated. Liking it is one thing. People like this exist with every hated piece of media, I'm always surprised when I see what people are capable of convincing themselves of. I'm sure the handful of die-hard fans of Morbius, now a global meme, can pretend that every moment of stupidity is actually this incredible masterpiece of storytelling, I'm sure they can break it down for you, but they convince themselves only. They will try to convince you that up is down, left is right, and the illogical is logical. Liking the episode as a piece of entertainment is fine, but masterpiece it is not. The realizations always become more clear upon reflection, after first viewing, once it truly sets in just how rushed and ham-fisted these last episodes had to be, what flurry of nonsense was just witnessed. It's not about anyone being in denial, it's about execution. When the Golden Company pull up with one horse and exist for 3 seconds, you know you're in for a real treat. An afterthought, just like Rhaegal. How they portrayed Jon and Rhaegal's relationship perfectly encapsulates the point everyone makes with these final episodes. It's not where it ends up it's how it gets there. Imagine with 2 more seasons, Jon and Rhaegal's relationship could have been something beautiful, a Targaryen developing a bond with their dragon, instead what we get is Jon instantly riding him like a roller coaster after literally just meeting him, and... that's it, barely any interaction in that moment or after that. The perfect analogy to this point, is the difference between a forgetful one-night-stand, and a couple in love waiting for marriage and making love for the first time. See the difference there? The massive contrast between those two things? This issue presents itself with everything that happens in the last few episodes. Jon speaks his dragons name ONCE I believe. One fucking time he actually speaks the word "Rhaegal". The dragon literally named after his father. Doesn't even mourn his sudden death or even acknowledge it. They just needed Rhaegal gone before this episode, quick time! He still probably got more love than Ghost. It's not just that things supposed to be unsatisfying are unsatisfying, it's that EVERYTHING is unsatisfying, but in the worst way. Even with the benefit of multiple season of excellent world-building and character relationships. Plenty of previous episodes are unsatisfying, depressing, hopeless, as bleak as you can imagine. That's totally fine. Yet, The Red Wedding is one of the most revered and beloved episodes of any show ever made. Denial was not in short supply. The difference is that it was executed to perfection, it allowed for these moments to mean something, the horrific events to hit that much harder. To elevate this episode above episodes on that level as I said requires unmatched level of delusion that I rarely see, at least when it comes to this specifically, I'm sure you're otherwise fine. It sounds mean but I can't think of any other way of describing it. I get the same exact feeling when I encounter a flat-earther, of course that's worse than this no doubt, but the same rationalization tactics are there, it's difficult to know where to start when you see one in the wild. To them, everyone else are the ones in denial, but they see the truth, it all makes sense in their mind, everything they see to them is just a confirmation, that the earth is flat.

Jake Follain

Oh addendum, I don't see this as Dany being bad or Dany being good. I see this as the writer's seeing the end in sight and just moving forward with the best thing to "subvert expectations". Can't even hate the character or condemn her actions because it looks like someone's Dany goes Mad Queen fanfiction got an HBO budget. Poor Lena Headey too. Puts so much into Cersei's character, and I swear when that tear falls, she's just mourning the role.

Shannon Bey

"innocent slave masters" say that to yourself aloud once or twice and see if anything clicks in your head.

Jeezleberry

bullshit. their advice to not attack kings landing when it was obvious they had the advantage cost Dany the war. it was shown in this episode just how easily it could be taken with minimum causalities (prior to dany losing it). are you seriously admonishing her for using the words of her thousand year old house? also, the vision she saw did not show her dragons burning the city, actually. it showed only scraps and pieces of the future so you're just plain making shit up there. maybe YOU should try paying attention instead of sucking david and dan's teats for breakfast lunch and dinner LMFAO

Jeezleberry

Sigh. Yup. So let's buy that Dany just completely abandons her arc and starts barbecueing women and children. Grey Worm is angry about Missandei so abandons any character development and principles and starts massacring surrendering soldiers. All the Northmen suddenly lose all sense of principle and loyalty, even that's what they're known for, and go on a rape murder spree, and Jon goes from facing down Ramsay's charging cavalry alone on his feet with his sword to kind of "hey no" when his own men break all their oaths and run amuck. And Jaime, who apparently has never cared about the innocent, just wants to be in Cersei's arms as they are both killed by the greatest threat in Westeros: falling rocks.

Shannon Bey

1. Pudgey, you legend, big brain on the prediction. 2. Varys was trying to poison Dany, that's why he was asking if she ate. She burned him because she told him if he went behind her back she'll burn him alive. That said, he definitely told her to her face beforehand what he thought she was about to do was a mistake and stressed the lives of innocents, and in return, she basically said "i'm the savior, so i'm gonna do what i have to do, no matter the cost." hence why he went behind her back after that. she burned him for not following her despite what she was planning; tyrant behavior. 3. The wildfire was the same wildfire her father the mad king had hidden away, so she's basically burning king's landing the way he threatened to. 4. From what I understood, the reason Dany burned King's Landing was because in her mind, those people weren't innocent. Notice how she talked to Tyrion about how when she was in Mereen the people freed themselves. But these civilians didn't. They waited until they were overwhelmed before finally asking for their Queen Cersei to ring the bells to surrender. Unlike in Mereen, where Dany was pictured as someone who came to save them, and calling her Mysa and all of that, here, she's the foreign conqueror come to take the throne from Queen Cersei. She isn't a hero here, she isn't beloved as the savior. She's the enemy who won against the Queen, and have them so scared they'll ring the bells to save themselves. And she didn't like that. She only has fear, not love. Cersei has told these citizens Dany is an invader whose come to harm them, so she's got them terrified of her and begging Cersei to help them by giving in. In this sense, it's Cersei they are asking for help, and not Dany. So, Dany in her mind, was "cleansing" King's Landing from Queen Cersei's rule, and starting over. That's why she was speaking about "future generations" who won't be in the grip of a tyrant, not the current people. The current people will only fear her. Future generations will only know Dany who has always been their Queen.

connie

I was absolutely not expecting Varys (or even Tyrion) to remain loyal to someone like that. My comments are merely pointing out that from the RULER'S perspective, it makes absolute sense to execute one of your advisors that is plotting against you and trying to poison you.

Zakki

you can’t be commenting over and over about people making excuses for Dany’s brutality and then turn around and make excuses for Cersei’s…

Ad

Should we recommend a youtube video on why GoT season 8 is bad lol. I just wanna keep seeing GoT content even if the show is over.

Alex

I wouldn’t ever call slave masters innocent but yes. Dangerous god complex

Ad

@Zakki that was AFTER he told her the truth about what he thought. He saw she was so caught up, she was willing to sacrifice innocents and she wouldn't listen when he tried to talk her down from it, so of course he's going to turn on her? He said it before "incompetence should not be rewarded with blind loyalty." It's absurd to expect him to remain loyal to someone like that.

connie

I was howling because wowwww

connie

Imo it’s not about that. People tend to react poorly to a character they like dying. They usually don’t see it from an objective perspective in the moment. Just pure emotion.

Ad

I’m not trying to give anyone excuses. I’m about logic. No sense expending energy to kill a bunch of women and children for no reason. Even Ramsay Bolton wouldn’t bother. Saying that dany would choose the collateral damage of innocent people dying in order to get the throne is believable (and btw this is what’s been set up for many seasons now). This crap in the episode that you randomly kill people after surrender for no purpose is not believable.

Ad

The wild fire explosions you saw was the caches that the Mad King Aerys had his pyromancer's place there before he died during Robert's rebellion. The dragon fire simply set them off. Which is crazy because they've just been sitting there for 20+ years.

Dashawn Brooks

I've waiting months and months to say this so now I can finally say it... Season 2 predicted this episode. And you'll definitely see in the next episode. When Dany went to the house of the undying and she saw the throne room destroyed with snow falling, it was another foreshadowing that she would destroy king's landing. So as much as I wanna be mad that she did it, it was clearly always the plan from the very beginning. Even Brian's vision predicted that 2 of her Dragons would die when he saw only one flying over king's landing.

Dashawn Brooks

Yeah to be fair it isn't entirely obvious, especially cos it makes no sense that he would be doing that.

Dominic Curtis

GoT is still my favourite show of all time. That's why I'm comfortable admitting that this season, and most of all this episode (clearly the worst of the series) is truly horrendous. Every decision is out of character, there are plot holes left, right, and centre, and the writing is dreadful. I get you like it, which is fine, although completely inexplicable, but I genuinely am curious about one thing in particular. Jaime's entire character arc was leading towards him restoring the honour he supposedly lost when he killed the mad king. One of the most impactful scened of GoT was Jaime and Brienne talking about why he betrayed Aerys, in order to save the city. How can you defend him in this episode saying he never cared for the people anyway? It tramples all over his entire character arc throughout the show, and makes one of the most meaningful scenes meaningless, but you still somehow think that's ok? Please explain that

Dominic Curtis

Are you sure that just wasn’t when the deal was announced? Those kind of deal negotiations can take months or a year to come together. I think it’s likely they sat down with their agents 2-3 years before GOT concluded to plot out their post-show plans and what they wanted to do next, and then there were months of discussions/courting with Disney and the other studios. It’s clear these guys were burnt out (understandable) but they should have passed the reins on to a successor like Bryan Cogman or someone else.

JJ

Sadly, the last episode is worse. Not satisfying at all. (at least for me, I HOPE you guys disagree.)

Jakob Schaefer

Could you guys do a rewatch on your channel? Loved the reactions. Not sure about everyone else, but the 2nd watch through is almost the same level as the first for me as you're piecing together things you may have missed the first time round! I can assure you a lot of people would be interested in a 2nd watch through of you guys on your channel. Doesn't have to be straight away, maybe a few months down the line?? It would mean your official GoT journey doesn't have to end yet also ;)

Elliot Powney

This episode was hard to get through

Destinee Yang

preach!

SeaShel

this ladder went all the way to the fucking moon

qas ra

Have you read the books Druckeberger? Yes for many of us we don't agree this is his conclusion, and I don't think she'd be pregnant at this stage in the books, and I would argue there is a lot of text based evidence for him not returning to her in this fashion in the book story. People are free to disagree of course.

SuddenImpulse

@JJ Exactly. Varys was taking it too far. He knew exactly what he was doing and what the potential consequences were. Even Jon would have beheaded him if he was caught doing everything he was doing at this juncture and it was him instead of Dany it was directed at. Its how this world works.

SuddenImpulse

Stark men are honorable--but stupid. They always stand by their word. They expect everyone to be honorable as well, which, in this world is idiocy. It took me a long time to face that--but it's true.

Rachel Taylor

I was pretty negative on season 7 and season 8, so it's refreshing to see reactions from people who liked those episodes up to this point.

Christian

a more sensible way of showing this wouldve been dany burning her way down to the red keep paving a way for columns of her bloodlust soldiers butchering everyone in the way and any meager resistance they wouldve faced. it wouldve showed an objective for her flying around for a whole day buring shit down and made more sense. massacres like this have happened in real life conquests. the Mongols burned and butchered almost every single major population center in the middle east during their conquest and had no problems burning cities to the ground repeatedly as a war tactic instead we just see her randomly strafing the entire city for no reason for what appeared to be a very long time. how much dragon fire can dragons breath anyways before they are out of ammo. it was just so unrealistic. if dany was really pissed in the heat of the moment at some point she might've cooled down too but no, we just see her robotically burn shit down for no reason because she needed to be the mad queen so we can hate her so D&D can jam in an irrational underdeveloped ending so they can go milk star war nerds

qas ra

Nah she flat out snapped and went insane. You see this in her dialogue with Jon. Going insane doesn't always mean behaving like a nutcase/the Joker from Batman. Jon saw that she had completely lost the plot and snapped completely with his dialogue with her in episode 6, which is why he killed her. She had convinced herself that whatever she was doing was justified for this end goal she had.

SuddenImpulse

Its hard to discuss these things about the differences in characters and their arcs, their differences in how they have handled traumas and such, without having a real time conversation and going pretty in-depth about it I feel, but yeah I don't think many people would disagree that this season is pretty terrible and rushed and a lot of things could have been handled much better. I also agree that anyone thats excusing Danys insane tyrannical behavior in this episode and episode 6 are too attached to the character and not being objective.

SuddenImpulse

Hopefully she hangs that over Spartan for a long time to come, the ultimate out of left field prediction coming true when he usually dogs on her theories lol

Christopher

Gotta say Druck, sometimes you make good points but "She ran away" has gotta be one of your worst.

Munir

Almost every single reaction I have watched people miss that Varys is trying to poison her. Its rather unfortunate.

SuddenImpulse

There are "Stans" for each and every character, including Dany and Jon and Cersei and Stannis etc.

SuddenImpulse

Yeah i have to disagree with this. While I do like Dany as a characters (except for this season 8 business,what she does is irredeemable) I think Dany does get blamed inappropriately in some instances, there are others that definitely do highlight issues with how she has exercised her power throughout the seasons, Druckeberger highlights one of them.

SuddenImpulse

And now, finally, Pudgey and Spartan learn why we hate Dan and Dave now. Seven seasons worth of storylines just all thrown away for total nonsense. It's so maddening.

John Neiberger

I'm genuinely curious, do you actually agree with every decision made in these last 2 seasons or do you just feel the need to combat the hate you see? Because I don't know if I would defend even my favorite shows as hard as you're defending this.

Munir

That's exactly what I was about to say. How the the greatest show on earth go so wrong. D&D rushing it and no source material. If only it had been handed over to decent writers that had the time to do it right! It still makes me feel sick 😫

Melanie Vine

You see only what you want to see. You pay more attention to a starbucks meme than the actual Story in front of you. Your points are the same lazy criticisms that have been repeated a million times over 4 years. Instead of remembering them to a fault, you should have either given the story a fair chance and if thats not possible; be honest why you think its shit.

DrückebergerTV

D&D put in a lot more effort highlighting danys god complex and dark tendencies in 5 seasons than Martin did it in 5 books, dont fool yourself. She killed innocent masters in season 4 and 5.

DrückebergerTV

They cant make anymore excuses because its the storys intention to refuse to give people more excuses.

DrückebergerTV

The Story finally refused to give people more excuses for danys behaviour and thats why they hate it. Every rewrite comes down to putting her in a Situation where massmurder is almost justified and she is the victim again. The show was strong and smart enough to reject that as their final lesson.

DrückebergerTV

The look on Jon’s face was pain and disappointment. He put his trust in Dany. Bent the knee and gave her The North and The Seven Kingdoms cuz he never wanted either and he believed that she wasn’t like her father. He believed she would be a good Queen for everyone. Held fast to that, didn’t betray her and he loved her. Once he found out he was half Targaryen and that he and Dany were related, he obviously couldn’t continue a sexual relationship with her anymore. He grew up a Stark and they don’t get down like that. Lol. Anyway, Dany became the mad Queen. Just wish she would have went straight for Cersei and made her die screaming!

Virgogrl

I would argue HotD is more allign with later seasons. It has the same "flaws" people bashed late thrones. Episodes that are too dark, poor battle strategies, characters acting stupid, characters doing stuff without "in your face" exolanation. It also pays tribute to season 8 a lot by reminding people of danys fate at the beginning or including aegons dream about the long night and the dagger that ended it. Dragonstone, KL also resemble more late thrones than Early.

DrückebergerTV

The last two seasons are the result of the showrunners not wanting to do Game of Thrones anymore. They both wanted it to be over by their own admission.

Scott Lindsey

You have to judge the show on its own merits, not the books merits.

DrückebergerTV

Breaking Bad was a completely different story, with a safe and fanpleasing ending. It wasnt challenging anyones views on the story or understanding of the characters. Thats fine though, its a different story and its ending is perfection as well.

DrückebergerTV

Blame the writers for creating the greatest show of all time and a masterpiece with this episode?

DrückebergerTV

If people were consistent and critizied every Story like they did with thrones later seasons, they would not find joy in anything. Anything can be destroyed if you want to.

DrückebergerTV

D&D put in more effort of highlighting danys god complex and dark tendencies in 5 seasons than Martin did in 5 books.

DrückebergerTV

She didnt go mad. She choose to rule with fear.

DrückebergerTV

They always wanted to do 7 seasons and made Star wars Deal when season 8 was almost done filming.

DrückebergerTV

People are not honest why they dislike the ending at all. 8 Seasons of Development is not rushed at all. You dont have to like it, but at least be honest why.

DrückebergerTV

Not true. They made Star wars Deal when filming of season 8 was almost concluded.

DrückebergerTV

She didnt go mad, she made a choice. People only call other people "mad" in this world because they dont have medical and psychologial data like we have. Her character was developed for 8 seasons, if that wasnt enough for you, 2 more would have made no difference. Dany was the cause of War. No one wanted her to liberate them, she just started it because she could. Why should dany kill cersei first? She wants her to wirness what she is capable of... and then kill her.

DrückebergerTV

to get a better world by asking please to stop killing children to get soldiers for example? get a better world by letting there be slaves? Let's see, for me there are many indications since season two that this was going to happen, but that is not so that now all the previous things done by Danny are seen as something bad. he stayed in essos to help people. In war, all sides kill no matter how good their intentions, you will not get them to stop enslaving by asking for it. I buy his madness but not that he massacres a city when he has spent 8 seasons defending innocents

ruth cueva

She is my favorite too. By far the most complex and tragic character in modern Fiction.

DrückebergerTV

Jon was blinded by love and loyality. When he says "She is my queen" he is trying to convince himself that, even when he knows in his heart that there is something wrong. Tyrion was always smart, but luck was always the deciding Factor why he is still around. If bronn wasnt there he would have died in season 1. If Oberyn and jaime werent there, he would have died in season 4 twice. He was suicidal and traumatized after killing shae and tywin, dany gave him New hope in life. He fights against his family, that he still loves and wants to survive. Of course he is making mistakes and is very conflicted and not right there. Hes still fucked up by his killings and also blinded by his love for dany. Dany developed. Of course she still cared about the peoples opinion about her in season 4 because she doesnt want to lose their love. In season 8 she lost every hope of gaining love from anyone, so she choose fear. Martin said his ending wont be that different than the shows.

DrückebergerTV

Well, we saw her ran away from the collapsing buildings and she wasnt bathed in fire, so everythings fine.

DrückebergerTV

She didnt go mad, she was pushed to the edge and her mental state suffered because of trauma, ptsd and loss of her closeones. She decided what she wanted to do and thought it was the right thing.

DrückebergerTV

You dont need to pay that much attention to get it. Of course other horrible rulers like tywin, roose, balon, stannis or walder would have acted just like dany. Only difference being that her Slogan is "breaker of the wheel..", "to build a new and better world" and that she is young and beautiful. She is convinced she is doing the right thing, when people like tywin know that what they are doing is horrible, they dont sell a "i will change the World for better" Story.

DrückebergerTV

Martin spoiled by having a similar stairs fight between kingsguard brothers in Fire and Blood as well, where both die as well, that this will eventually to the clegane brothers as well and it did. If thats fanservice for you, you gotta blame Martin first.

DrückebergerTV

The hound was the only part people were predicting and be right about it. And it wasnt controversial or challenged the viewers perception of the story at all. Its easy to swallow, unlike the rest.

DrückebergerTV

This isn't even as bad as the next one XD

Rainbow

Bookreaders complained ever since season 6 he spends too much time with cersei, now we know why they did that, they still complain.

DrückebergerTV

Yeah, as if killing your pregnant sister/ lover with child will "redeem" him and make him a better person...

DrückebergerTV

my favourite series is the first law. Which really does the whole challenging readers perception of fantasy and how horrible and pointless things really are. The problem is even if they wanted to do all of that, they did it with horrendous pacing, one hundred flaws in logic, awful dialogue, characters becoming caricatures of themselves, and multiple product placement/mistaken cups and water bottles in scenes XD. It was presented so poorly. And it was done for such poor reasons - just to prove viewers wrong? To SuBVert ExPectAtions. So edgy. Oh how contrarian XD. It's amazing how little that matters when telling a good story.

Rainbow

But again, bad writing. The way the Rhaegal died because "Danny just forgot about the Iron Fleet" (actual quote from the D and D) is absolutely ridiculous. And Viscarion dying was contrived as well. That entire episode has so many flaws it's absurd.

Demented Avenger

they had SO MANY WAYS OUT. So many better ways to write it. I am always amazed at how much I can write these walls of text, theres always another flaw I forget. What if they surrendered and jamie got to her, then as the armies file in, Cersei went - use the wildfire and then it goes off, jamie kills her, dies to mountain who later goes out with the hound when dany flips that she let the surrender happen and then destroy even the red keep and near vicinity but not the whole city! Even if that has flaws, there are soooo many other ideas... but even how far wrong they had got it up until this episode, there were still ways out!

Rainbow

Agreed. There is no defending her burning the city down. The city of her forefathers.

Demented Avenger

Spartan I think what you feel is actually quite common. When I watched this with a friend who hadn't seen it before, this episode is where he saw the nonsense and then retrospectively looking back at s7-8 and to an extent s5-8, people then realise how nonsense the rest is, but S8 it becomes way more obvious and we stopped giving them the benefits of the doubts.

Rainbow

Its hilarious how they still call cersei "the biggest villain" after what they have just seen. Cersei was forced into this role a lot earlier, and more obviously. She was a broken, powerless woman, who feared for her life and that of her child and they still blame her for everything. Dany Was the biggest threat by the end and all she gets is a shrug by both S&P, i feel like they are still both in denial as well when they recorded this.

DrückebergerTV

Spartan was already shutdown by Dany Supporters in 5x2 because he started seeing through the "mother of dragons, breaker of chains" facade and they cant admit that it was already there, because it would prove that the ending made sense. And thats a no go. Pudgey casualy predicted the right King lol

DrückebergerTV

This is the best episode of the entire series. This episode is challenging the viewers perception of the entire story and is supposed to make him question what he has just wirnessed, unlike 8x3 wich was a comfortable good vs. Evil Battle. Spartan called dany already "worse as a master" in 5x2 reaction;, the only reason he started cheering for her, was because she was his best chance of destroying cersei. This episode gave people everything they wanted for years. Dany taking kinglanding, taking down cersei, north take his revenge on the Lannisters, mountain vs. Hound. And it was potrayed true to its nature: pointless and horrible. The Times are finally over when there is heroic and epic music whenever dany burns people, has a great speech or sails for westeros like a saviour. Dany Was westeros' doom, not the Undead. Even Things people wanted were staged not the way they want it: Jaime Returns but instead of killing his pregnant love of his life and child to "redeem" himself he choses to comfort and die with her, cersei gets a sad, tragic death. She has lost all the Power and Breaks down crying and showing why she did everything horrible she did: to protect her child. People who hate her like spartan and wants her to get a gruesome death: got that denied as well just like with joffrey. Greyworm takes revenge on the lannisters and its not pleasant or satisfying. Jon gets to avenge his family and gets rewarded by a huge slack of incoming ptsd. Arya wents there to kill cersei, only to be shown by her fosterfather figure that this is not the way and if she goes there, she will be end up like him; she heeds his advice, turns around and trys to save people instead on taking revenge. Hound gets his revenge and dies. Dany finally accomplishes her dream, she won the battle, but its still not enough for her. People are not happy for her or cheer because of her, they are afraid of her and her dragon. Thus guilty of treason. "Let it be fear" she decided the night before when the last person in the World who loves her, abandons her as well. Its beautiful and puts a mirror in front of every viewer. You wanted this... until you got it. This episode sent people in collective denial about the story they have been invested and obsessed with for the better part of a decade, making them Start a ridicilious petition to redo perfection, what this episode is. People named their daughters "Khaleesi", before this episode aired. They named their child after a Tyrant in the making. People claiming that its rushed or doesnt make sense wouldnt be convinced about the conclusion even with 8 additional seasons. Everything has been leading up to this and it made perfect sense. Dany didnt go mad, she decided in 8x4, was reassured about her decision after jons disapproval of her killing varys and she struggled with herself before she did it. The Dragon inside her won and the people paid the price. Its pointless, unfair and horrible. This is how it is supposed to be. No Glory or Winners. Only Death and Losers. People, 4 years after this episode aired, are still in denial about it. They react like every supporter of a tryant in real life. Only here they have the luxury of being able to blame the writing and storytellers, who flipped the switch after convincing both the viewers and dany herself that she is a goddess, a good ruler and saviour above men, who knows what is good. I know people will destroy this masterpiece and try to undermind it with everything they can, and do for 4 years, im only one of the few who is trying to defend this epos and make people see reason with it. Its a hopeless effort. Kinda like tyrion trying to convince and stop dany. He failed and so have i, but as a wise man once said: "Good. Now, go fail again!"

DrückebergerTV

It was subtly hidden in the show that she would burn everyone at King’s landing lol you just weren’t paying attention. All throughout season 7, her advisors kept pleading with her not to attack King’s Landing because it would kill a bunch of innocent people and Dany would always try to find a way to justify doing that. Even back in Season 2 she would say that she will “take what is mine, with fire and blood I will take it!” Now what do you think that means?? Lol it certainly doesn’t mean she’s gonna ask nicely for the throne. She even had visions of King’s Landing being being burnt down by her dragons. So you clearly haven’t been paying attention if you think this came out of nowhere. I saw this coming from a mile away and I’ve never even read the books. I will say however that her change to being the Mad Queen was way too sudden and not given enough time to fully flesh out her descent to madness. But either way, conquering anything anywhere always consists of mass casualties so this wasn’t too far fetched. It’s the execution that was weak.

Jenny Tolls

I believe They binged the last episodes. During the first live they mentioned they finished the show and we only had episode 2 at that point. That may be why you see a difference in episode 5. Before they were watching them a few days apart vs all at once. I still enjoyed the reaction but I understand other people may have a different opinion.

I❤️movies&tvshows

incredible selective memory of the show in these comments. the only example of dany's fate here being foreshadowed are from the books, and were cut from the show entirely. there is absolutely nothing in her character that tells us she would murder an entire city of innocents just because she can. there is not one instance of her burning anyone that was not justified completely IMO. tarly betrayed his liege lord and fought against dany on the battlefield. the slaver masters crucified thousands of children as an intimidation tactic. nobody can actually name an instance of dany being 'insane' because besides this dumpster-fire of an episode, there are none.

Jeezleberry

Agree with your impressions. IMHO Daenerys' capacity for brutality was foreshadowed from the beginning, but not developed enough. Hate to sound like every other book reader but the later season' failures with multiple characters - Dany, Tyrion, Varys, Jon, etc. are impossible to excuse. These are all smart, experienced and capable players by S7. They dumbed them all down. Even Littlefinger, the sole architect of the game of thrones we've been watching, would've and should've never gone out like he did. We now know GRRM gave the showrunners his destination, but they failed to properly develop the journey to that end. All that said I love GOT & even when the writing falls off, it's still entertaining to watch.

Robin Lee Melendez

She did. She literally went and burned the building down on top of cersei.

JBlaze24

Sad you haven't watched the intros to the series. The season 8 intro changes every episode but MORE importantly, is the emblems/symbols on the huge globe rings that spin are events from the show -> the red wedding is pictured as part of history on the intro rings.

Rainbow

Haha! I was dying to see your guys’ reaction (especially Spartan) for this episode. (Sorry long post ahead). Completely agree with everything you said. I was not at all satisfied with Cersei’s death after every horrible thing she as done to literally everyone in Westeros. I get the metaphor that her downfall was literally her power, the Red Keep, falling down on top of her, but come on — she should’ve been captured and destroyed Ramsey style (even more worse). Haha it would’ve been great seeing her tortured while everyone screaming: “SHAME, SHAME, SHAME!”. That’s how I felt after this episode. I also agree that I enjoyed 5-8x3, but just bottomed out so badly. I cannot forgive D&D for racing to finish 7&8 (they should’ve been 10 episodes each) just to get on to their multimillion dollar offer from LucasFilm/Disney, ultimately to have it snatched away because of how badly they botched the landing here. They could’ve done so much more with the Fire & Ice element. Have that first huge battle against the dead, but clearly lose, leaving the survivors no choice but that to go South — and include THE ENTIRE WORLD together to face such a cataclysmic force. (Lol a commentary I’m sure on Climate Change). Have Melisandre even more of an epic battle 1v1 magically with the Night King. Hell - even bring all the Red Priests & Priestesses back for the final battle in the South, with Kinvara as the High Priestess, The Flame Truth, The Light of Wisdom, and the First Servant of The Lord of Light (meaning she’s probably another couple centuries older than Mel). She must have immense power that was untapped!! In the books when she would perform her magic, the ruby on her choker would glow so bright and hot, it would actually hurt her. At the battle of the wall, Melisandre was able to use her mind to literally make an eagle far above burst into flames, as that Wildling guy who hated Jon got rekted. Also in the books — the followers of The Lord of Light in their grand temple (biggest in the world) have an army called “The Fiery Hand”, 1,000 not so ordinary soldiers, armed with flaming spears and magic?! ❤️‍🔥 I would’ve loved to see some epic moment where the Night King, White Walkers, and Wights are all coming for everyone (maybe the small victory for the living was at least killing Viserion), but Melisandre is the only one who stays, her ruby glows so bright and hot that it explodes like a nuclear bomb on Winterfell. Making a reference to the last Child of the Forest saving Bran, Mira, and Hodor, to give them time to escape. Haha I know I’ve been roasted in a few previous comments on my love for Melisandre, but that could’ve been such a great parallel for her purpose for these past 400 years — save Life (The Lord of Light) and destroy Death (The Great Other).

Brent LaFlam

I felt this way for a while but now I think she did it because she wanted to instill fear as she thought it the only way to hold power.

Ben Hall

@milorad just goes to show you how passionate people are about this show even years later haha its so fun though lol

Nicole

LMAO!! Yes sorry probably poor wording on my side as well lol Spartan used to make me laugh with his mentioning of the hate comments about Dany. Thats what I was saying lol

Nicole

@Nicole oh ok ok, we cool, i might've taken it too seriously 🤣

Milorad

I was trying to comment on this episode alone, without going into the finale. I didn't insinuate anything. You assumed. My comment was meant to be a laugh and lighthearted. They've been reading peoples comments for months from Dany supporters so much they actually said it in their videos. "I know everyone hates me because I'm hard on Dany." Spartan says that or something like it numerous times. You are taking my comment so much to heart it's making me laugh. Don't take everything so seriously. Seeing people react to these episodes is fun..in case you forgot.

Nicole

@Nicole Whaat?? Please read carefully your comment and than mine, twice if you need to. I didn't say there are no Dany stans and i didn't say anything about you liking this episode. Your comment insinuated that the divide in fandom is between dany stans and people who saw this seasons ago, and that's obviously not true, the divide is between people who think this episode is shit and people who defend it to death, most of the people saw "Dany mad queen" seasons ago, and they don't have a problem with it, they have a problem with shit and lazy writing.

Milorad

yea its a brutal look at war but literally everything else is horrible lmao

A.B

It was a let down...then I try to remind myself how much I've been let down the whole time lol It was never going to be roses and sunshine. You get so invested in these characters I had to remind myself many times...it's the GAME OF THRONES lol

Nicole

It's really fun!

Nicole

People ARE Dany Stans, you may not be but there are loads of them. I also never said I loved this episode lol All I said was welcome to the divide. Maybe you should not be so one dimensional yourself and take your own advice. Reread my comment not once did I say this is a good episode or that it was executed well lol I never said it was the spilt of all fans either or the main reason people dislike it. I've watched enough reactors that there is a split and the Dany fans were more pissed out of everyone. Just my opinion.

Nicole

Haha I'm also watching another reactor who is not a Dany fan and he is just starting season 8 so I am definitely curious to see how he responds to this episode 😂

M. Miel

@Nicole This notion that peope are "Dany stans" and that can be the only reason someone can hate this episode is so ridiculous. I disliked Dany from day one and I hate this episode, it leaves me dead inside, completely emotionless, the execution is simply TERRIBLE. Godamn people are so one dimensional...

Milorad

Jamie was the least surprising out of everything lol was it disappointing of course! But not out of character either. Cersei was Jaime's downfall. Always would be.

Nicole

You are not the only one. And I don't get the rushed factor either. It was ending and they had to cover so much in so little time. Having Dany go mad in one episode...no this was building up, people were blinded by their admiration for her to see it. You think actual people going mad lasts years lol she snapped. Thats why it's called that. I love this series AND season 6 is my favorite and 7 is good too. AND there was no books to go by. Season 8 had to finish it off. Could it have been better? Maybe but the production worked hard on this season, it was beautifully shot. They were never going to make everyone happy, it's impossible. I have a few reactors that I watch and I was curious how Spartan and Pudgey would react because they've always liked Dany. They reacted exactly as I thought they would lol I'm waiting for my other channel to do this episode as well they aren't Dany lovers though so I'm excited to see if its different LOL When I watched this in real time I did sit with my mouth open like HOLY CRAP but never ever thought this was out of character, it was more like nooooo Dany nooo, hopefully my gut feeling was wrong. But to be honest I didn't think any of them acted out of character. Upon rewatching it just cemented my original thoughts. You aren't alone at all. This is a brilliant series! It always made sense to me and I've read the books.

Nicole

Robert, Joffrey, Tommen, and Cersei were also not the real heirs based on law, and if you want to keep going back, neither was Aegon. He had to conquer it and take power by burning castles to the ground. Dany’s mistake was not imprisoning Jon the second she learned of his betrayal in spreading the secret and then using him as a hostage against the North. She was smart to kill Varys, and she should have killed or imprisoned Tyrion as well after his hundredth fuck up. Olenna gave her the best advice — be a dragon, be like Aegon, fire and blood. If she had done that from the start instead of being pulled back by Tyrion repeatedly, she would never have lost Missandei, Rhaegal, and wouldn’t have snapped.

JJ

Chaos is a ladder and this episode was an absolute chaos lol

Alex_Skull123

I’ve watched the series over a dozen times and after watching 8.5 again, I think Pudgy summed it up the best. “I don’t want to be hating it..”. But it always leaves me feeling empty.

flink

Even back in Season 1, Drogo made a pact basically to her that was like “we will knock down their houses and kill their people”. Dany looked so happy when he was saying that. She’s spent most of her young adult life with Dothraki, the most brutal people ever who don’t give a f*ck. Now Jon ALSO spent a lot of his time with wildlings (almost like the Dothraki of Westeros in a way). He pretty much died for the wildlings too. He never turned crazy with bloodlust because his coin flipped to the good side, Dany’s coin did not. It was cool seeing the two opposite directions of the Targaryen coin alongside each other.

Mel

exactly, it was obvious it was gonna happen, People saying otherwise were just coping lol

Stray

I feel like most of the stuff people hated about season 8 would've made more sense if it was over 2 seasons and could be explained more instead of being rushed,

Stray

Cersei for Jaime is an addiction. Might not be what a show should tell, but that happens all the time with addicts

Flexorcist

I'll be the first to admit, they needed at least 80 episodes to tell the story they told in 73. At some point, the story became plot driven instead of character driven. Basically the start of season 7. We spent the better part of 6 seasons hitting all the major plot points AND seeing the "filler" of people discussing their motives and reasons... season 7, they just started fast traveling to every major plot point and we saw very little of the mindset behind people's decisions. That's why season 8 bothered me less than s7. 7 completely changed the narrative style and it was jarring. When season 8 rolled around, I just expected more of the same. I always liked the political intrigue more than the action, and they chose action in the end.

J_Fley .

I am one of the people who enjoy the series entirely and don't understand all the hate. A show like this was never meant to give you a satisfying ending. And as far as the complaints about it being "rushed", you have to understand that the actors were ready to move on as well (not just D&D), and so, if you ask me, I think they did well in the face of that challenge (wrapping it up rather than dragging it out is no easy feat and I commend them).

M. Miel

LOL

Nicole

Agreed! Nothing about Dany's actions were surprising here.

M. Miel

im gonna throw up

A.B

J_Fley save your breath, people didn't like where these characters went so it's easy to blame the writers when it wasn't the ending they wanted. LOL none of this surprised me the first time I saw it. Then again I wasn't a Dany supporter from the beginning, she always seemed irrational and entitled to me. And you are right she has been saying she will burn cities since the beginning. People wanted to believe in her then the disappointment in the build-up made people pissed. Well, that's how it goes man. I feel people are mad because they didn't get their way lol just like Dany LMAO

Nicole

I’m pretty much of the opinion that even if Varys hadn’t been spreading the secret around and undermining her rule, he was trying to poison and kill her so that along deserved a death sentence.

JJ

And now you know the split of so many fans. There are the Dany stans who are mortified and people like me who saw this coming seasons ago. Welcome lol Mad Queen

Nicole

Even if it's hard for me to accept that some people love season 7 I can maybe at least respect it... But this epsiode and this season - season 8 - is so fucking bad that I get angry everytime I think about it haha. I mean how can you screw this up so bad? All the hard work was done. All the built up, all the storys, every conflict was laying your lap and yet you fucked it up. There are so many scenes that is so cringe and bad and awful in season 8 that I'm almost got impressed. Danny goind full blown Mad Queen is not wrong if you know the lore and everything they have been telling us in earlier seasons but the way they made it feels just so weird and rushed and wrong. I have said it before but I felt that something went of the wrong way early in season 7 when dialogue changed in the series. The way the characters talked to each felt like it was a diffrent show I mean at least not GOT... That fucking awful scene in season 7 epsiode 2 when Danny out of the fucking blue threatens Varys "If you betray me". It felt so fucking of and so fucking weird and I get it... it was a big fucking foreshadow because she will be the Mad Queen! If the show would have 10 seasons then maybe they would have the time for Danny to become the Mad Queen but to turn the table the way they did it in next last season... It was meant to be a let down.

Daniel

lol that pudgey prediction who will be on the throne and the smirk :)))))

Victor Radoi

I totally agree with Spartan & Pudgey on this one!

Daniel

Varys went out as a hero! Talk about being a man of the people. Varys was to good for the world of GOT.

Daniel

Lord of light says “not today.” 🤷🏻‍♂️

Justin Lee

yup, i really dont have a problem with most of how the show ended, but yea This show Was never ever EVER meant to be rushed, and they did exactly that the last two seasons. it should still be going on, but the show writers, WAAAAAAA needed to do other things with their lives WAAAAAA. Meanwhile, they lost their star wars gig because of how badly this show ended. lmao. Moronic D and D .

NJI1055

i always watch reactors and up until the bells they area always making excuses for the writing and the way things are being pushed forward. Then they watch this episode and theyre are no more excuses to be made the decline of danys mental health should have been 2 seasons in and of itself its so rushed

Chris Button

I don't think you guys quite caught it with the Arya and the Hound scene, when he went walking away and she turned around she called him by his real name, Sandor. She had always referred to him as the Hound and at that moment he had become a real person to her. Beautiful moment after them having seasons of a relationship.

RP10

Agree Robert. Jaime is my favourite character and sadly this end for him always seemed inevitable. He wasn't on a redemption arc like Theon. He was simply on a journey to become a better version of himself, which he did. He went against loyalty to family to go and fight in the north. he'd have never done that in season 1. Love of family was at first his best quality and yet it was always going to be his downfall. The only thing I hate about his end is that the awful Euron had anything to do with it. Such a terrible character and that fight was just naff.

Victoria E (vickster5001)

I think for first time watchers this episode seems to be the first to clearly feel below par, but on your rewatch you’ll see the problems arise much earlier, even during s6 (though that season was saved by the last two all-timer episodes)

NoahKarls

Yeah but he was saying that it wasn't unreasonable for Varys to be telling the truth, despite the fact that it was treason. Not understanding Dany's motivations for killing Varys is just silly. Even if you were a Varys fan, it makes more sense to question why he was behaving like an idiot and committing obvious treason, rather than questioning Dany killing a traitor.

Dominic Curtis

The Mad King wasn't a dragon rider. Imagine if he was.

Robert L

Well said Sofia! Jaime is my favourite character and this is exactly what I think. People saying they ruined his redemption never makes sense to me, as he wasn't looking to be redeemed, like Theon was (that's a wonderful redemption arc). Jaime dies a better man than the one we met in ep 1. That person put family loyalty and love above all. That Jaime wouldn't have cared about the night king killing people in the north. he'd never have put doing what was right above family. Yet, by season 8, especially through the relationship he develops with Brienne, that's what he does. He was willing to go and die fighting for everyone. Do I wish he'd stayed with Brienne more than a few days? Sure, as I do think he loved her, but before we liked him, the only good trait he had was his love of family and it 's that that makes he want to go to Cersei. I wish he'd have been able to be happy without her, but he always seemed destined for a tragic end. But he was a better person by the end and that's still a great arc for me.

Victoria E (vickster5001)

I genuinely think he'll change the book ending after all the backlash which annoys me. If Dany burning innocents who surrender is his book plan, give me a chapter from her POV so I can get more of her thoughts on it. That's what the show lacks by cutting season 8 down to only 6 eps. For me, it's not what she does, as I half expected this all along, but the way they rush the turn she makes in ep3/4 and 5.

Victoria E (vickster5001)

Dani would have burned Jon alive if he even so much mentioned wanting the Throne. No army is going to protect him from a dragon over head. That is assuming Drogon would kill a Targaryen. I don’t know that he would b

I❤️movies&tvshows

EXACTLY... I could fully accept her being enraged and wanting to kill cersei as spartan thought was going to happen, and perhaps in her path blew some innocents up... but she was literally circling the outer city back and forth blasting ppl for funzies! Weehee! So bizzarre... like aiming at wee children and woman wtf? I cant believe it gets worse in episode 6 but it does... the wheels really fall off the wagon and we go somewhere else entirely...

Anthony Brown

I was waiting to see your thoughts on this one. Like ep.4, which I really hate as it's the biggest example of rushing the story to its end, so makes me angry every time for highlighting that, ep.5 is a mixed bag for me. It is an incredible episode from a production standpoint - the sets, the direction, the way it depict the horror of war on the innocent so clearly and horribly, but the writing of it really annoys me. So much terrible dialogue. Personally, I agree with Spartan about Dany, as I could always see she was one step away from this for ages - locking those two people in a vault to suffocate was pretty dark in season 2! so, I am not as angry about her turn as many are, but I do hate that the rushed season means she seems to just snap in a short time over very little. With more episodes, showing people plotting behind her back, maybe more on Varys' possible poisoning attempt and seeing her struggle more, it would've landed better. But the big issue is the bells. Fair enough, you don't want Cersei to surrender, so fly straight there and burn it down. Choosing to kill everyone in the city because the people haven't immediately welcomed you and don't love you is pretty ridiculous. She becomes worse that Cersei in that moment, in terms of people who have suffered because of her actions. Cersei never killed this many people! I also HATE Euron stabbing Jaime. How dare such a crap character take out Jaime like that and that whole fight is so dumb. I don't mind Cersei's end being lowkey. She'd have perhaps enjoyed a big spectacle and yet she doesn't get one and like her or not I adored Lena Headey in this role and she was so good in this episode, I did feel a bit sad for her! They completely wasted Cersei/Lena in season 8. That all being said, once ep 4 and 5 are put aside, I don't mind ep.6, but maintain the content of season 8 needed at least a full 10 ep season to let all the plot points breathe.

Victoria E (vickster5001)

Nobody (who is reasonable) says they shouldnt have turned Dany mad. The problem is it’s happened too fast. We know the Mad King was forever changed by one event but it still took years until he went completely nuts. Yes Dany suffered many personal losses in a short period of time but I doubt that the human mind works so that from one day to the next you’re a completely different person.

NoahKarls

The ONE problem they created by pure stupidity was have her burn the city AFTER they surrendered. People would have accepted her going full nuclear in different conditions, like maybe if Drogon was hit and hurt by one of the scorpions or if the Lannister army started to slaughter Dany's armies. Do it after the surrender was the stupidest decision they could have made. It is honestly baffling these guys ever got writing jobs.

Junior

Just an insufferable character from s7 onwards.

NoahKarls

Well, lucky for you, you get to be upset again when/if the books ever come out and most of this happens and the endings are fairly similar. Dany said she was going to burn cities to the ground and destroy everyone who wronged her since qarth early season 2 and many tines since... few more than 3 episodes prior 🤣

J_Fley .

I dont think this is bad written it was rushed, if you rewatch the show and focus on Danny the craziness is always there, after all the people shes close to died and 2 of her dragons dying set her off.

Alhoss

I think he was just in the moment. A great character that he liked just died. Of course he is not gonna be completely objective at the moment it happened

Rey Jr

yeah it's overlooked, he tried to poison her but that's not acknowledged

xRivalize

I’ve never read the books, only know what the show has given us. I’ve never been a huge GOT fan… not like most of the world was. I enjoyed the show but I was more a Vikings obsessed fan. Lol. I was raving about Vikings to everyone while everyone was hyping GOT to me. Eventually I caved & started binge watching GOT around airing of Season 3. It’s definitely one of the biggest shows in the world. The scale of it is truly outstanding. I will say that I agree with fans that it goes go downhill in writing towards the last few seasons definitely Seasons 7 & 8. The drop in quality didn’t upset me as much as it did others. For me from 8x03 onwards… the show really dropped off. This episode especially being the biggest WTF! I hated Jamie’s arc. The fight with Euron felt like a waste of screen time. I always figured Dani would go bad so that wasn’t surprising, her actions weren’t shocking to me… all the scenes leading up to the bells ringing pretty much told you what would happen but the way the show handled her going mad was rushed & poorly. Cersei’s death was completely unsatisfying after her 8 years of terror. The only thing I did like was the Hound & Mountain’s fight & the Hound’s scene with Arya. All in all this episode makes me feel is dislike & confusion. I think I’m still trying to wrap my head around it years later & I wasn’t nearly as invested. I can’t imagine how diehard fans feel. Can’t wait to see Spartan & Pudgey’s reaction to the finale.

Jamie

its not dany who went mad.. its the writers.

Tomy

Normally I quite like your reactions, but the complete lack of understanding of why Dany executed Varys was weird. It isn't being a bad leader to execute someone who committed treason against you, was conspiring to seat someone else on the throne, and tried to poison you. Of all the dumb writing this episode, Dany executing Varys was by far the least nonsensical.

Dominic Curtis

Dany was always meant to become her father. in a way bring his infamous line "burn them all" to fruition. even had a vision of the burned-down iron throne room in earlier seasons. but because they decided to rush and finish it in season 7, her insanity arch never had any time to develop. it was rushed and sloppy. hence the confusion. Nevertheless, great reaction per usual. can't wait for the finale lol

Leroy

Putting aside the fact that I believe this last season is terribly terribly written on a micro level, I think everyone can accept the macro level arc of Dany. I get it. However, the part I continue to maintain makes no sense is the idea that she would just slaughter people for some crazed bloodlust. Had they simply set up that in order to get to Cersei she HAS to go through these people, I can believe that ultimately she would go through them. I do not accept the idea that for shits and giggles she's going around killing people when she could just go get Cersei. It's simply not believable at all and for me there is no set up capable of making that believable.

Ad

I like Spartan picking up on the fact the Dany's turning has been foreshadowed throughout, I feel most peoples biggest problem with this season is the sudden complete change in Dany, another season could have been fit in between or even a few more episodes that show her turning to madness with a bit depth and understanding. Poor writing aside I love the production of this episode, the Dragon fight scenes and the dragon stuff was sick

Anthony Fisher

We are finally here. The worst episode. A rushed confusing episode, that puts a damper on an otherwise brilliant show. Season 8 should have been 10 episodes, and the whole season should have been about defeating white walkers. Season 9 should also be 10 episodes, and that should have been all about the defeating the Lannister’s and taking kings landing. Cramming everything into 6 episodes is ridiculous.

Louis Melendez

It's not Game of Thrones. It is not the idea of ​​another person without ending up finishing it fast. Not everyone could like it because in 6 chapters it was impossible to finish well, that's why I say it

ruth cueva

Have you seen "Breaking Bad"? That show did.

David

I'm talking about the former btw and not the later. Plenty of crazy Dany fans out there. I think we all see why Dany does what she does but she's still batshit crazy. Also I kinda call bullshit on the sympathy for Dany the Starks literally had their entire family destroyed by the Lannisters and don't go crazy like this. John Sansa and Arya have just as much right to be pissed but they wouldn't ever do what Dany did. Granted I would say most of this is just terrible writing in a season that needed more episodes.

Valcor

GRRM said the books will be a bittersweet ending, i fully believe the shows ending results will essentially mirror the books theres more characters involved in the books, how we get to the final results of each character will be better explained if the books ever come out, i am wanting most to understand the Bran and what the BloodRavens/Three eyed Ravens motives are

JohnnyTitan

Telling people the truth may not be treason, but he wasn't spreading the truth simply out of honesty. He was doing it to get people to support Jon instead of Daenerys, in order to get Jon on the throne instead of Daenerys, while still officially serving as an advisor for Daenerys. A.k.a plotting against her, a.k.a. treason. Plus, he was indeed trying to poison her, so... I'm not a Dany stan btw, I just feel like this is one of the very few things that actually made some sense (from a ruler's perspective) this season.

Zakki

Telling people the truth isn't treason

Tyler Craig

Yeah this episode is stupid. Even if bad writing for little plot points like Daenerys "forgetting the iron fleet" is in retrospect not that important, it already harms the show's credibility. When it comes to the big conclusion it's unforgivable to mess up like this. And about that Ramsay's quote "if you think this'll have a happy ending you haven't been paying attention", I'm ok with tragedy, as long as it feels cathartic and meaningful, not EMPTY like this episode. Did you notice how we don't see Daenerys once after she starts burning innocent people? She's just a dragon looming over the city, it's like the show is trying to dehumanize her as much as possible, like Spartan said, all her journey and development "thrown in the bin". You can say that about Jaime as well. I'll suggest you guys watch the Lindsay Ellis review of Game of Thrones if you're interested.

Lise

I genuinely forgot how terrible this episode was, and the decisions they made in it. It was written horribly. It makes you think back to season 1/2/3/4/5 and how much there was still left undiscovered, and how feel-good it was back then knowing how much of the story was left. Season 8 should have been extended into 2 full seasons.

Tyler Craig

Because the writers warn you 3 episodes before about their bad writing doesn't excuse failing a character who was developed for 7 seasons prior. It's not even just about one character arc it's about the meaning of an entire story.

Lise

Yes it's not about justifying why Dany is a better ruler than Jon it's about how much the writers failed her character and the show in general.

Lise

Of course you could see it and it happening is not the problem. The how is the problem. This episode was nothing else as manufactured solutions. The iron fleet - first problem, just make it go away. The Ballistas, another problem, just make it go away. Golden Company, next problem, just make it go away. Euron, meeting Jaime in the middle of chaos - another problem, bam done. Dany going crazy and deceiding for fear is alright, but than again the show was shot poorly. In the same way as it was terrible against the Lannister army in the field. They looked in shock how cruel it is. And how can you burn their stoic leaders afterwards. Its just stupid if you make your characters look shocked for the wrong things and this is an indicator that shows you how deep of an understandings the writers realy have. If your point of view were true, they would have done thos other situations differently because than you could have used those layers to portrait the decay of Dany.

Joel Quinn

Well, he is basically a god as far as the GoT world is concerned, and at least according to him, he doesn't really identify as himself or with a particular house anymore, which has its benefits as a ruler of numerous kingdoms.

SuddenImpulse

I'll say it everytime, the Dany turn on paper is a good story. The visionary revolutionary who stares into the void and becomes the thing she sought to fight. However, it was done sloppily and far too quickly in the show. Spartan was right, it was foreshadowed to a degree with her brutality, however being excessively brutal in executing enemy combatants does not automatically mean you'd be willing to firebomb innocent civilians. There is a track there, it could lead to it, but you have to do the work to get there and D&D didn't want to do it or gave themselves the time too.

Nenny

lol what

SuddenImpulse

My issue is his show character really doesn't seem to line up with his book character arc, but I get how there can be a lot of debate around this.

SuddenImpulse

I think there are two groups of people in this regard. There are people that won't accept any criticism or flaws with Dany, and then theres people that just want them to understand how she became like this over time. You can understand and sympathize with a character and their arc, without actually defending or advocating for their behavior. You can see this in a lot of shows with grey characters, or characters that end up downward spiraling, not just this one. Same thing with Jaime and other characters. Theres complexity and theres layers. I don't think that goes away or should be ignored just because the showrunners did this so sloppily, rushing things, transitioning things poorly, and botching things. Understanding is not defending. I agree that there some people that just try to ignore these problems with Dany though, but I also don't think thats unique to Dany. People do that with a lot of characters they like, in this show and others.

SuddenImpulse

Welcome to the club you two. ♥

Kizzle

Shit is objectively shit, a show's writing is not something you can objectively say it's shit or not. It's always subjective. Not to mention in this day and age it's often influenced by what people read from reviewers or from others opinions. I'd risk to say 90% of people who talk about "bad writing" in the internet, know shit about writing. You either like it or you don't, and analyse what you think it's good, bad, or so-so. That said, I think the way they wrote the last 2 seasons of GoT is shit. But that's just my opinion. At the same time, they are also a master class in cinematography on a TV show.

Daniel Vieira

I'm glad Pudgey decided to wear the Stark t-shirts and not the Targ one. That would have been uncomfortable to wear while watching this episode to say the least

Cs Zoltan

welcome to the end, it's shit. Now you get why they made House of The Dragon more in the veins of seasons 1 to 5

Sasha

On the topic of Jaime's arc: There's quite a group of people that are disappointed with how the writers ended his story, because his redemption arc and character supposedly have been destroyed. I disagree. The biggest illusion is that Jaime Lannister was on a redemption arc to begin with; His arc is an identity arc, it's about exploring the limits of his redemption. He is constantly in conflict with himself regarding either honor and loyalty (to his family). You want him to turn away from that, but what if he can't? He is not just 1 thing: Jaime can choose both those values, when they go together. However, sometimes those values are on opposite ends. In the end, the unconditional love he has always had for his family, Cersei in particular, is the doom of his honor, and his end; Jaime wouldn't be Jaime without that all defining line: the things I do for love. Though I suppose you could even say that him risking his life and giving it to die with his family is an act of love and honor combined in itself, in its own way. How do you expect him not to care what happens to the sister he has been with all his life? (Not to say it's a healthy relationship and whatnot, the upbringing of all 3 Lannister siblings plays a huge role in how they turned out). Anyway, it's all perspective. And a good character arc doesn't mean linear growth, it can go with ups and downs and even end up where the person began; it can come full circle. Jaime remains a flawed, grey, complex character, and I love him for that.

Sofía Peeters

For me, the biggest issue of this epidose, or season 8 in general, is that the writers had too much story and characters that they needed to wrap up in just 6 episodes. When ideally, it would have been best to dedicate 1 season to the long night battle/night king, and then another season to build up Dany as 'the mad queen'. Although the hints are there throughout the seasons (on mutliple occassions she has stated she would take back the seven kingdoms with fire and blood, and burn cities to the ground, and we cheered her for it...), Dany descends into complete madness this season a bit too fast. They also missed the opportunity to include interesting dialogue scenes between Dany and Cersei for instance (Cersei this season was definitely underutilized when she is such a fascinating character). The episode wasn't 'satisfying' in the traditional sense, because it leaves a very bitter taste. In a sense it is realistic that way, we are talking about war, there are no heroes in war, we shoudn't be rooting for it, or romanticize it, it's a dirty business. I understand and agree with almost all the decisions the writer's made this season, but the execution of it all was sloppy.

Sofía Peeters

I really believe that the end does not matter, it is a story that closing it to everyone's liking is impossible. You really have to enjoy the ride

ruth cueva

I felt pretty much the same. For all the flaws and stupidity, I was still invested up to this point, and then it all felt hollow. What's really telling is that they don't show Daenerys at all during her rampage. Emilia Clarke is a fantastic actor, but there's no way to act that scene of Dany systematically burning the whole city for like half a fucking hour. It just doesn't make sense, even with the trope of madness. It would have been easier to believe had she just burned the Red Keep and its immediate surroundings, but the writers wanted their big dramatic drawn-out spectacle. Anyway, your reactions compelled me to finally revisit the series for only the second time, and while it's sad it ended like this, I'm pleased it was still a fun journey!

Kate

People are coming at you in the comments about Dany because they are trying to defend what she does in this episode. Yes there are people out there that still try to defend her after this. Trust me most of us dislike those people aswell they are crazy Dany fans. They come at you for criticising Dany because they think she can do no wrong.

Valcor

Of course Spartan is gonna be upset about a death of a great character. That’s a normal reaction. When you don’t think about it and you are just pissed the character died. I think if he really would have thought about it objectively again he would know that Dany is not wrong in this case. But he was in the moment and angry like I said that such a character died

Rey Jr

This series is incredible, whether you like the ending or not, the entire series has been incredible. I enjoyed it without thinking too much about these two seasons. Now that I've seen it I like to debate with people.

ruth cueva

Its all Jon's fault. Had he did the HONORABLE thing and claimed his birthright, none of this would have happened. Well, Dany would've still fought, but Jon would've protected the people. He let his personal feelings for Dany get in the way of duty. He failed the realm. Sansa and Varys knew this all along.

Mike

I like that Pudgey has her house Stark shirt on not her house Targeryan shirt. She must have knew deep down what was coming. Honestly this is where the show became crap to me, i loved it really up untill 8x4 and 8x5.

Valcor

I agree with most of your points and also think it is a fitting and consequential ending for Dany's arc per se and that the groundwork was laid already in the early seasons and even more so in the books. But as so many others have said before, it just was too rushed. The step from Dany's bad impulses and questionable behavior of earlier seasons to Dany burning all citizens of Kings Landing was too big and sudden. It just makes me sad thinking about how satisfying her arc could have been, if they took their time developing this arc over more seasons or at least a few more episodes.

Redcrabdue

The loss of Missandei and Jorah so close together, along with Jon’s rejection of her, drove Dany over the edge. If even one of those things don’t happen I believe she doesn’t burn the city. I was hurt the first time I saw this episode—badly—because Dany was such a great character for so many seasons, but upon a rewatch I realized they were setting this up the whole time. Bran’s flashing visions from earlier seasons literally show scenes from this episode, as well as the final episode. The second viewing gave me a begrudging respect of the showrunners, because they had the balls to actually go through with turning one of television’s most beloved characters into a villainess. Also, regardless of how anyone may feel about the twist, seeing a dragon burn a whole city to the ground was staggering from a cinematically technical standpoint.

Jason Turner

I loved how the Hound saved Arya, but the rest is just a mess

Cs Zoltan

Jon is still in love with Dany. He didn't reject her because of Varys dying. He did it because it's obviously too weird for him knowing they're related. Jon only wants her to be his queen now and Dany again feels rejected again, she does truly love Jon but she still believes in her destiny too.

Chantelle Miles

🎉🙈🤣🤣🤣

ruth cueva

after watching chapter 6 watch again chapter 10 of the second season. It still amazes me how Dany isn't seen again in the whole episode. I guess there's no way to justify such a prolonged rage and good acting... that's why they don't focus on her as she rampages through everything. If they wanted to make her crazy it would have been great to see her face, right?

ruth cueva

I think that is not entirely true. everyone who wants to reach the throne has done barbaric things but danny stayed in those places for a long time, being able to go to the west. He killed more people because they were slaveholders, but he always put the lives of the innocent first, always, even if he devastated as with the immaculate, he explicitly says so in his speech... from the beginning his bad part is seen but also the good. I mean, how clear I don't think this is. For me the vision of the house of the immortals is more significant than the visions of Bran. maybe it was intended for this but I still believe that all seasons should have had 10 episodes

ruth cueva

Dany proving she is every bit her fathers daughter 😡 I never liked her

Ross Davies

You can also like eating shit, but expect some people to call you stupid.

Adrian

I have always said that where the story ends and writing in its self aint bad. But it is so rushed, that they leave to much out. The build up to the long night could easily been a full season, so could the build up to this fight. But they wanted that Star wars job i guess. Got was always intended to end bittersweet.

BølleTM

And she said, word for word in the previous episode, that she would meet with cersei so the common folk new who to blame when the sky fell on them. Tyrion, Jon and varys all knew what she was about to do and just hoped they were wrong. Varys was the only one that tried to stop it

J_Fley .

I don't respect any of the work they did on the last two seasons. Season 6 is a good season, but after that its obvious they just stopped caring. They were begged to do 10 seasons but they chose to completely disregard fans and do star wars.

Auxiliary

Poor imaginary women in GoT (a tv series) ☹️, they get treated with double standards by a man😂

Adrian

Pudge dont make excuses for Dany she controlled Drogon to do that he didnt do it on his own blame the writers

ramon carter

Pudgey is a fucking genius

Britt Carter

I'm so happy I decided after the Winds of Winter aired and we found out there were 13 episodes left, that the show had a great run of story telling and character development for 6 seasons and now it's time for spectacle and it new the pacing was gonna be off...more like a movie than a TV show. So for me personally, I am not bothered by the ending. I accepted what it was going to be. My disappointment with season 8 comes only in the second half of the finale. The Bells was riveting television and to me made perfect sense. I will never tell someone they shouldn't be mad at the show. But I do find more often I'm told I'm stupid for liking it. The haters are far louder and want everyone to hate it with them. Doesn't require intelligence to enjoy something even with flaws. Life is too short, this show is incredible and there are far bigger things to complain about than some rushed writing.

Joey

the writers rushed to finish this season because they got a deal to do star wars then they got fired from star wars i wonder why lol

ramon carter

Arya Hound scene is retarded. Arya killed 10x more people than Hound at this point. She is a total sociopath.

Jaroslav Dočekal

so your saying I shouldn't preorder Winds of Winter Deluxe Edition from Folio Society?

Richard Kraupa

Wtf are these Season 8 fanboys talking about?!

Adrian

Spartan taking shots in the comments. How can anyone expect him to like Dany and Cersei when they are like this... He also showed the same disappointment /hatred for Ramsey, Theon, Walder Frey, Jamie, Ruse which are men.

Richard Kraupa

Oh f**k, that episode... First time rewatching it since it aired, and at first I felt like it made more sense that the first time... but sadly no... This would have made sense if spread out over 2 more seasons. One of the biggest shortcoming with the end of the series is how Dany turned psycho in no time. We know she lost a lot, now she lost Jon, and she thinks she lost her right to the throne. She is a Targaryen so there is a chance she will go crazy, but that was WAY too quick. In the books the author is stressing out the inherent madness in Targaryens way more, characters are referring to it all the time. In this episode we have Varys metaphor about the coin, which is great, but we should have seen more obvious glimpse of Dany's madness before that.

Chris C

She went crazy. Of course her actions don't make sense. She's being irrational. That's what it means. It's incredibly simple, yet people search for some explanation. She snapped. And that was setup, or people wouldn't have foresaw it, as you say. After that, anything kinda goes. Crazy people do crazy things. Then people get mad because they liked her and so they complain about the writing instead of the character's flaws. There's like 3 or 4 episodes in the entire series that dany did anything cool. I don't understand why she's so popular to begin with.

J_Fley .

Too long too read, but I like the twist. I hate that it happened out of nowhere. Dany should have taken more time to get this mad.

Jaroslav Dočekal

If Cersei made her snap then why didn’t she go kill Cersei and burn the red keep?

Random Random

People acting like Dany went psyhco for no reason. Dany snapped because they ambushed her and killed her dragon while sailing to kings landing then cersei killed missandei right in front of her when she went to make peace. Missandei's last words were "dracarys". It was obvious she was going to just destroy the city and be done with it. Don't see how noone saw that coming. I don't blame Dany, Cersei made her snap. It was natural reaction. Perfect episode. 7 seasons of Dany's quest to get the throne completed. She broke the wheel. The hound got his revenge. John and Arya survived. Couldn't have been written any better.

JBlaze24

Writing about people losing their mind is very common in fiction, especially tv and film. There are countless great stories based around that trope. It’s why viewers are able to predict that Dany could go mad in the first place.

Random Random

Yup the producers got offered to do Star Wars

Richard Kraupa

♆

if this episode has lost you, wait until you see the next one... the last one makes sense the first few minutes after it is total madness, despite this, it has nice things. Season 7 is enjoyed and part of Season 8 because the budget has been spent on dragons, CGI and nonsensical "battles" but visually good but they are crap 🤣🤣🤣🤣 mainly because of the speed, the same, with ten chapters in each season surely would have been better. I'm sorry for so many comments but I put them as I see the reaction because if I don't forget

ruth cueva

Did you watch anything before this season? Every single time dany has a problem, her first instinct is "return cities to the dirt, blah blah blah..."

J_Fley .

I have to go to bed so haven't had the chance to watch but I was dreading them not catching the Varys poisoning bit. Almost every single reactor I've watched seems to not realise that's what Varys is trying to do. Obviously I dont justify Danys behavior at kings landing. But anyone thinking jon or 95% of lords wouldn't execute someone that actively committed treason or tried to poison them in this world is kidding themselves. I wish they had made that Varys poisoning more obvious. The dialogue makes it clear to those paying sufficient attention but clearly it wasnt explicit enough if the majority of viewers seem to not realize it on the first watch.

SuddenImpulse

the reason a lot of this season & parts of season 7 feels off is because it was rushed, they tried to finish the series off fast as they could (ESPECIALLY the final season) which is also why many ppl didn't like it. BUT... as much as you hate the way it was rushed, you do need to respect the work they put into tit

Stympler

Perhaps it's difficult for sane people to write about someone losing their mind

J_Fley .

After seeing the episode, everyone says "it was coming" because Dany killed... sorry? everyone kills their enemies and she always cared about the innocent... in fact she killed people for the innocent... She chained her dragons because they killed a girl, when she got the unsullied in her speech she said explicitly not to be He didn't hurt any children... he offered to help Jon after he lost a dragon and before he said anything and now he burns them all because he has lost so much? I'm missing something else. Maybe it was predestined for this, but I don't think they developed it that well. Not to mention that they have killed Tyrion's character (since season 7) and Jon's... (since chapter 3 he only yells at a dragon and says "she is my queen")

ruth cueva

That is wrong Kayla, but an easy way to dismiss anothers opinion. Speaking of double standards, i guess we both share in that since Pudgey agrees with me most of the time, and certainly did on this Varys death, but apparently only 'Spartan' has the view on 'women' 😂 @Nicole My complaint was that Varys character arc deserved better overall treatment, not just because 'Dani' killed him. furthermore, Varys swore he would look her in the eye and tell her when she was failing. when he told her he thought the attack was a bad idea, she ignored him in her madness, so he took action. that is fair.

CpaSpartan Pudgey

I have a really hard time seeing Jaime doing this in regards to Cersei given he is basically completely done with her in the books long before this. She is in dire need of help and he completely abandons her and does so in decisive fashion. This is like the opposite from where his character is at in his latest state in the books and it was built up for a good whole oj the books too so I don't see that progression being discarded happening in the final arc of the story. D&D wrecked him.

SuddenImpulse

Maybe shocked at how badly it was written. Execution of ideas matter.

Random Random

Also they rushed this season to start working on Star Wars...

Richard Kraupa

I love season 7, I can even enjoy most of season 8. Last episode was bad but I can accept it. But this episode is where i draw the line.. Everything is to rushed, they needed more episodes for this

Kevin Mc Vey

This episode left us ALL feeling the way you two are right now, haha. Dany going full berserker Queen mode, although believable for the future, was too forced and sudden for this episode. The producers at this time were done with GOT and wanted to finish it up in 6 episodes. Sadly, we got this episode to wrap major storylines up. Sadly, indeed.

Eddie House

And he was trying to poison her! What was she supposed to do, let him live? And he knew how he’d die long before he chose to betray her. Sorry, I adored Varys but that was expected.

Shay

I'm one of the people who likes season 5-7 despite their flaws, I even like the first 3 episodes of season 8. I despise these last 3 episodes. The only thing in these last episodes I will defend is Jamie's love for Cersei being his downfall making no sense. People often say Jamie's whole arc was destroyed, but his character is meant to be tragic, he is a drug addict who despite getting the help he needed time and time again, he had one relapse to many and paid for it. Also, Dany's turn is evident throughout the show. She is often willing to use force to get what she wants and what she "deserves" and is rightfully hers. She just always had council from people she trusted to talk her off the ledge. She has lost everyone close to help to guide her. I hate how fast everything happens and it comes to abruptly though. I always say that the show should have been 9 seasons. Season 7 should be Dany coming to Westeros and facing Cersei, Season 8 should have been the Night King battle and the realm starting to side with Jon leading to Dany's turn. Season 9 should have been Dany vs. Jon for the throne and the show wrap up. Stuff needed way more time to breathe but of course, Dumb & Dumber decided they could wrap up the show fast and move on to other (eventually cancelled) projects with other franchises. Lame finish to such an epic show. S8E4 is my least favorite of the show, S8E5 is next, and S8E6 is just a SNL skit. Beyond frustrating that two schmucks ruined what should have been one of the easiest homeruns in television history.

Christopher

Ah a fellow optimist who believes the books are still coming. I still check his blog regularly hoping for an update but i feel like an idiot holding on to that hope at this point.

AG

This is when I felt it too, then looking back you can see where they started to drop the ball and destroy the show we loved

Richard Kraupa

It all felt meaningless to me. When it aired and Dany did not go directly to Cersei, and instead strafed the city like she was mowing a lawn, I nearly turned it off. It’s not that I don’t see how she could lose her shit and burn innocents (although her true descent into madness should’ve taken an entire season, not 2 episodes), it was because it was literally stupid. Cersei was the cause of the war and she didn’t bother to burn her first or even AT ALL? C’mon. At least have Dany go to the Red Keep, burn Cersei, and then just keep burning everything out of rage. I was and still am angry that after all those years of watching and caring, I WANTED to feel something. But I wasn’t devastated that she finally lost her mind, instead I was rolling my eyes so hard that I nearly injured my brain. The Hound, Jaime & Cersei, f’king Euron —it was all just flat for me and some of it was downright corny. Just to add: Hahahaha watched the very end of your commentary and Pudgey’s awkward laughter and Spartan’s bewildered face has me cracking up. I feel you.

Shay

I knew Spartan would be disappointed every time he talked about how dragged out and brutal Cersei’s death needed to be. I think the worst part of this episode though is that somehow, some way, Urine managed to be the sole survivor of his burning ship, wash up on shore in the exact spot at the exact time Jaime was there for that ridiculous fight. Too absurd and honestly, with the gaps and forgotten things in the writing this season, I would have preferred they just never showed or mentioned him again.

AG

I actually totally agree with this…there’s def things in this season that suffered badly from rushing the story along, but Jaimie’s choices always felt totally true to his character for me personally. He does care for innocents, obviously, but when Cersei’s life is on the line that all becomes background noise.

Kenneth thomas

because spartan is famous for having double standards when it comes to the women of the show. if jon had done it he would've been fine with it.

Kayla

until the bells ring the attack is so perfect... Drogon is amazing. I hate what Dany has done, this chapter hurts me a lot, for Tyrion, for Jon, for the innocent people... if we leave the story and think only of the images of the chapter you go crazy, it's wonderful. I also thought that he was going for Cercei and I said well, so far no innocent person has died, let's go well... his reaction is horrible and it causes the soldiers (all soldiers, north too) to take out the beast they are carrying. I remember that I could only think, "Drogon I love you But someone stop you now." Eight seasons waiting for Cercei's death and she dies being loved, in Jaime's arms, I was happy for him, I wanted to die like this, but Cercei deserved to die alone

ruth cueva

I haven't got past the first 15 minutes yet but how can you sit there and act like Dany executing Varys for treason is a bad move? I agree, wonderful character but she is the queen and he is openly betraying her and trying to poison her! She promised him she would execute him if he ever betrayed her and she followed up on it.

Nicole Herd

No one's gonna justify it not 100% at least, but some of us just don't care honestly. We've accepted it at this point. And yes this is me saying that Dany is still my fave, flame me if you want but it's a tv show so it doesn't really matter.

Kayla

Really interesting to see your reactions. Pudgey was emotionless, almost more than any episode. And Spartan looked like you just gave up. So ridiculous that you're not engage. When I first saw the episode I was disappointed of course, there was no focus on characters, no feeling or soul behind it. Very disconnected. And your guys’ reactions confirmed that.

Karl Lashkari

How the writers have screwed up so many characters is something that stresses me out. They made Jon a guy without personality who just blindly follows Dany. They took away that internal power that Jon had, that FIRE that he had. Jon had the soul and strength of a king. Now all he says is "She's my queen". 🤦‍♀️ They made Tyrion a fool who was unable to make good decisions when in fact he was extremely intelligent. And the worst thing is that they made Dany a villain when in reality her character was the opposite, she could be aggressive or even arrogant, but a murderer who doesn't mind burning children alive? No, she was never that. She even chained her dragons when they killed one girl, and now she does this? It doesn't make any sense. Luckily for us George Martin (the writer of the books) said that the ending of this story would be different in his books. Even he didn't like what they did

Sofia

The most plot armor I've ever seen from Arya this episode, SO many cuts where she was the only survivor.

Munir

I find it interesting that they spent 2-3 episodes saying, verbatim, what was going to happen, and then people are shocked when it happens lol

J_Fley .

You don’t need a lot of episodes to have a character make a decision. People just wanted Jamie to make the choices that made them feel good. If he did those in one episode nobody would complain.

Robert L

Have not watched till the end yet but Varys and his little bird tried to poison Dany

Achillis

Well, some people claim that because that's the absolute truth. Clegane bowl had been a fan wish for years. They knew what they were doing.

Junior

Well... Now you know! But wait! THERE'S MORE! This is probably one of the most beautifully shot episodes in TV history. It is honestly a cinematic masterpiece. The only problem is most of it makes no sense lol

Junior

varys tries to poison Dany, that is the conversation he has with the girl from the beginning and he is also betraying her, what does he have to do? kiss Varys? He promised that he would burn alive... the rest without words or justification but that, they have all done it, if you betray me I'll kill you... I don't understand why it's fine for some and not for others. Tyrion's face when he sees that Dany starts to burn everything breaks my heart, you can see his face of disappointment, sadness, horror...

ruth cueva

If they had more episodes and spent more time then maybe I can get behind Jaime falling back into old tendencies. But it was such an abrupt reversion. Most people were angry about Jaime’s redemption arc destroyed.

Ratj620

Nah man it was just really shitty writing.

Mzuka

Some people would argue that the Clegane Bowl should’ve never happened because it was just fan service

Jenny Tolls

No one will come at you in the comments Spartan. This episode sucked. The writing sucked. The justifications the show runners try to make up suck. This is the point where most show watchers were fed up with the destruction of so many characters. No build up. No sensible plotting from varys. Just out of character moves all around. The hound was the only part that was acceptable.

Ratj620

When Jamie was talking to Tyrion he went back to cynical season 1 Jamie. When he said he doesn’t care for the innocents it was all an act trying to convince himself what he is doing is right. Some fans didn’t understand this and just assumed the writers and producers retconned Jamie. At the end of the day he is a complicated man who did great things but could never betray the woman he loved. Some people wanted him to have a full redemption like a certain character from Avatar the last airbender.

Robert L

Dany lost too much, and she became a broken person. Some fans complained she lost her mind too fast, but she lost almost everyone important to her. She realized she wasn’t this chosen messiah figure. She was never the real heir based on the law.

Robert L

Jacob Anderson AKA Greyworm AKA Raleigh Ritchie as a musical artist *Warning Mental Health subjects* https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Df0FKErWzw this music video always stood out to me for his facial expression ability

JohnnyTitan

Really want to watch this but I’ll save it for tomorrow! Going to enjoy LOK before bed. Thank you for the upload ☺️

Destinee Yang

Daenerys warned Varys episodes ago that if he ever betrayed her, she would burn him alive, and he accepted it. He was still working as her advisor and began to actively plot to put someone else on the throne. He wrote and sent missives about Jon’s true parentage/right to the throne to undermine her claim, and actually tried to push Jon to claim it. That is treason. I have many qualms with this season (including Dany’s character), but Dany killing Varys (in this scenario, with the way this plotline was written) isn't one of them.

Zakki

These last few episodes are a big reason you guys should rewatch House of the Dragon when you're done, even if its on your own time. You'll need the palate cleanser for sure.

Trainer Red

Not Pudgey saying Bran would make a good king 😲😂 never seen that prediction happen before

AG

I saw the LoK updated and was thinking where is ep 5?!! And here it is!! idk if im ready for you two to be done with this show yet :(

faika hammoud

That one has been out since last sunday.

Junior

It's there. Scroll down.

Milos

Did I miss epi 4?

Kodi

woah, i just refreshed and it was there

Murshete

LETS GOOOOO

EBRUH

Oh my. Here we go ..

Milos

I gotta get to sleep and you drop this lol

Drip Drop