The Jimquisition: Shexy Shelob

I'm sorry, but I find that aspect to be slightly amusing 😜

Rawk Hawk

You must really dislike Shelob as a giant spider to literally prefer a cliché...

Rawk Hawk

As much as I completely understand and sympathize with Jim's point, as a serious arachnophobe I would not be able to get through the game looking at Shelob's "true form" the whole time. It's the stuff of nightmares for me.

Daniel Liegmann

Maybe she, being a goddess-like being, understands that the Ring is purely Sauron's to dominate and thus doesn't care for it? I'm not super immersed in LOTR lore, but that seems plausible.

Daniel Liegmann

"The question is not "Why did she do that?", it's "Why did the creator decide to make her do that?"" Seeing as how there's a reasonable chance the creator decides what/how she thinks based on the character, i.e. what she WOULD think... isn't that relevant?

Rawk Hawk

I just wonder how she went from "I'm a quasi-goddess who can assume whatever form I desire" to "sure, I'll make a deal with Gollum where I get maybe a couple of sub-standard sized pieces of meat and he gets to keep the One Ring".

Kraken

Games are supposed to be entertaining. To me, talking to a cliche dark sexy lady is more entertaining than talking to a giant spider.

You are doing really good.

Illuminati Games

I could see her initial appearance as a woman to make sense. But not after climbing down in front of them in spider form first. Just to head off a possible attack before she could speak. Maybe just literally a minute before changing back to a spider and staying that way for the rest of the game.

Kyle Williams

I just remembered another female character in games, who absolutely passes the "Vertigo Test" which Jim blatantly ignored: Frau Engel from Wolfenstein. She is an absolutely grotesque character in every sense of the word. Someone who tries to act sexy in spite of being far past her prime, a sadist and a monster with no redeeming characteristics. She also suffers a grotesque injury on screen that makes her even more monstrous., something that doesn't often happen to female characters in games.

Torque2100

The two most common counterpoints to this that I'm seeing posted ad nauseum in the YouTube comments are: "She's doing it on purpose to be seductive" and "But what about this list of 10 female characters that aren't sexy?" While it could be asked why a spider monster, daughter to a demon, predator of all living things, vomiter of darkness, would even need to be seductive in the first place...the first point is an example of a "Thermian Argument": it's a diegetic answer to a non-diegetic question. The character is fictional and thus does not have will. The question is not "Why did she do that?", it's "Why did the creator decide to make her do that?", and that is a question worth analysis. It's how we get deeper meaning to things, it's why we get emotionally invested or learn moral lessons from fictional stories. Because the creator made a choice in their fictional world, and there is meaning in that choice. The second point really just comes down to bias. The notable exceptions are exactly that: exceptions that are noteworthy only because they are remarkably different from the norm. If asked to come up with even 100 female characters from published video games that were not conventionally attractive, I have no doubt I could do that, given an hour and the internet. I also have no doubt that a list of 100 attractive female characters could be compiled much faster and also off the top of my head, no research necessary. Hell, I could grab a random video game off of my shelf and reasonably expect to find more sexy/sexualized/attractive female characters than unattractive ones by a wide margin. Whether or not this is a bad or immoral thing is not the purview of this video or my comment. All we're saying is...this is "a thing." But all of this is missing the broader point. Vertigo is sexy, Jim, and you're blind to not see it.

nebulalexicon

actually, wynne is conventionally attractive and has the body and face of someone several decades her junior AND she is dressed in very tight clingy clothes to accentuate that oddly-young body of hers. just because she is not called a 20-something does not mean she is not still quite in line with the original complaint(assuredly though age alone does not make someone unattractive)

zosa

i was going to mention false equivalency but seeing how you unironically mentioned the barbie vs he-man argument to support your claim you almost certainly would not understand XD

zosa

So, I'm just gonna recommend that you play Kotor II The Sith Lords for another example of a great female character who isn't sexy at all, Kreia. Anyone who's played that game knows just how freaking good of a character she is while being an old witch. I know you've got all the time in the world (#sarcasm), but if you played Kotor I, it's worth playing the sequal.

Tempist

Vertigo! She was one of my favourite characters, except they fucked up her character in the novelization, making her motivation FINDING HER LOST EGG. She's a goddess! Why would she care about a frigging EGG?? But gosh, the news of Shelob being a sexy human female is depressing... Hopefully she still eats people.

NoPeaches

I was just about to say something similar. While I don't play League much anymore, I've long been a fan of Rek'sai for design/lore as much as core gameplay. While League does opt to have an expected sexy-woman-spider in Elise, I have to say, they really put the effort in to make her in-universe sex appeal a core element of her character design. She's a black widow cult leader that whispers sweet honey into people's ear...before eventually sacrificing them to her god. And while her human form is curvaceous and high-heeled to the point of not having feet, her attitude gets pretty monstrous in her spider form.

Gay Frogs Collective

Knowing you, Jim I'm still not sure if you're being serious or just making this episode to troll Reddit.

Torque2100

I half agree with you here, Jim. Sexy Shelob is a really dumb move on Monolith's part. I do agree that, in this instance changing the evil giant spider goddess into a generic woman is really boring and seems more like an attempt to skimp on the animation budget (and avoid triggering arachnophobes) than anything else. However, when you try to tie this to a larger problem you set up a false dilemma. You are flat out ignoring numerous examples of women in games who aren't conventionally attractive. Take Dragon Age: Origins for example, a game that you slyly try to present as "part of the problem". That game features not one, but 2 female characters who are most definitely not what most people would classify as "conventionally attractive." Flemmeth, a gross old woman who lives in a swamp and shapeshifts into monsters and Wynn: a badass, spell slinging woman who happens to be old enough to be a grandmother.

Torque2100

Midi Bowie in the background? Seems appropriate given the topic.

Aaron

Hey, Jim, would you mind re-posting your full criteria for what I dub "The Vertigo Test"? I showed your video to a friend of mine, and we had a nice debate about it, but I feel like I'm not explaining said criteria properly, and I can't find the original video that I recall had said criteria in it.

Only had 1 issue with this episode. The "ugly" Marcus Fenix/Old Snake versus the "beautiful" (handsome) Nathan Drake. They're all comparable to sexy spider-woman in the sense that they live up to the male "beauty" standards. Snake and Fenix might be scarred, grizzled or perhaps old, but they're either super athletically built, or, built like a fucking tank in Fenix's case. That's a male beauty standard. Women interested in looks that go to the gym often sculpt themselves lean and curvy, whereas men aim for shredded, muscular or swole "builds." I guess men in games are more often "allowed" to be (literally) ugly, but most heroes or PCs are very much ideal male archetypes. Handsome (and athletic) like Drake, muscular like Fenix, fearless like Geralt, VOICED like Geralt... just take a look at Talion. Fits right in. Men inject synthol into their appendages to appear muscled. In Burma, men inject their schlongs with coconut oil to make it bigger - with catastrophic phallus-results. It's the Barbie vs He-Man of video games. <a href="https://prodigynutrition.com.au/rich-piana-5-nutrition/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://prodigynutrition.com.au/rich-piana-5-nutrition/</a>

Rawk Hawk

Now that you mention Olenna Tyrell... that makes me think a "human" version could've been loads more satisfying and justified. Instead of sexy raven-haired lady #56

Rawk Hawk

I mean, I'm still gonna buy and play the game. The story of the first one wasn't exactly stellar either (though admittedly, nothing quite THIS stupid happened in it). I can enjoy the series for what it's really about: The Nemesystem, and the organic orcy stories is generates for you.

MeingroessterFan

When they do the extra work to take the most boring path. BTW: I know you don't play league of legends, so just check Rek'Sai wiki. She is a alien/spider/ sand shark monster. <a href="http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Rek%27Sai" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Rek%27Sai</a> ( Although I cant say the same for the rest of the woman champions )

Pedro Garcia-Huidobro

Wow, I haven't turned from excited to disgusted in a game quite as fast as I have with Shadow of War in a while.

Tobasco da Gama

Flemeth was cool. And hey, remember Ravel? Although transgender characters are pointless and always cringeworthy. I don't even see this topic as "SJW" one, you're right when you say that all these exclusively at least in some way sexy women in games are utterly boring. Not to mention changing an otherwise interesting character to a run-off-the-mill model woman. Oh, there's also that "orcish woman" trope. Still boring though.

Your work is phenomenal.

Illuminati Games

Come on, Jim! They gave her an outfit that doesn't even show cleavage. Surely that makes everything OK? The sad truth is, a lot of people are really creeped out by spiders and might not play a game where one was featured prominently. Doesn't excuse making her human form a sexpot, but might explain the anthropomorphism. Wouldn't a wizened old woman a la Olenna Tyrell have been awesome?