Is Silco a good father (edited version)
Added 2025-01-30 15:22:40 +0000 UTCHere is a cut down version of the livestream. The intro chat and ending chat (which wasn't related to the question has been removed) and large gaps where I wasn't talking or I was writing have been removed.
Comments
A reply to Jehan: I appreciate your perspective, and generally agree with your take pretty much entirely, so, I won't expand more beyond that. These dynamics mentioned are why Silco and Jinx are so compelling. Appreciate the write up.
Harris
2025-02-03 18:05:52 +0000 UTCGreat elaboration. I agree 100%. I went through the same upbringing with my mother. She was like Silco. She had her own revelations and hatred was a space she felt fine to inhabit. Got me though, it didn't fit me, it just made me sick and screwed up. Also, as Powder, I gave up my own inner guidance and was willing to become or do anything it was necessary to keep the codependency. This is a preservation instinct in every kid. And sadly, we need to go back to the source of trauma and outsource our healing because we are just stuck, unable to solve it. Also, we need to experience our own revelations, because it will be unique and experiential to us. Silco's enlightenment was for him only, not something he could just talk Jinx into. I would add, Silco is not a bad person, he is just not fit to be a good father. He did the best he could. He was not the father that Powder needed. There is another example down the road in the show, of how in a different context, Powder can do better. I would add, Silco loved Jinx, calling her perfect, but he couldn't rescue Powder inside of her because he, cut off all ties with his inner innocence, and he thought he was doing her a favor. Although, her struggles clearly show, she needed to connect with Powder. I have learned, that all my kids are different, and what worked for me, doesn't work for them, which makes parenting really hard. I am careful when brainstorming solutions, to let them know that they have options when dealing with relationships and that they don't have to do what I did. There is no one way to do things, and at the end they get to choose who they want to be. I always tell them, choose what gives you peace and makes you feel proud. Yes, for people like Silco, their kids are their trusted henchmen. Not good parenting, just clan mentality from medieval times. Nonetheless, Silco didn't choose to become a parent, he did the best he could, and he was a better person because of this. Jinx, wasn't his invention, but he definitely perpetuated her. There is an underlying foundation for Powder with abandonment issues. She lost her parents before, then Vi leaves her. Of course she is going to get triggered. I don't think Powder is crazy, she is a very sensitive child, in a harsh environment where survival is the norm. She had in order to survive to completely cocoon herself and create this contrast persona which is Jinx. You can tell this mask/ shell is so disconnected from her essence, that it cannot keep the leaks from Powder's trauma and suffering. Jinx appears to me as a disfuncional, extreme personality that doesn't match Powder's at all. Yes, it protects her but at the expense of destroying everything on sight. Powder was so creative and smart, and because of her circumstances always ended up using her genius to build inventions of mass destruction. I am not saying that Jinx shouldn't pay for her mistakes, I just believe there was nobody inside of Jinx, Powder wasn't there, Jinx is not real, those memories might as well not matter, because the real Powder was not there at all. Yes, Powder was 12 years old, stuck in the past, and she needed to be rescued in order to start living again. Jinx skills are useful, and because she needed to fight, Powder couldn't be there to endure the destruction. Powder didn't reach out for Silco, it was her pain of abandonment what reached out to him, and he turned that pain into hatred, which evolved into Jinx. When Jinx experienced loss and abandonment again, that emptiness she felt was Powder's sadness. Powder cannot handle loss, cannot find a way out because she craves connection and love, and her trauma doesn't let her reach out and trust again. Anyway, I still love Silco, I think Jinx couldn't understand what he meant or was saying because they were different and what worked for him, didn't match her needs. At the end of the day, Silco and Powder had big hearts, very sensitive, introverted kids that had to toughen up and survive, but in their case they couldn't handle their big feelings so had to detach themselves from that center, which turned them into sociopaths. I am not sure real sociopaths have feelings, but in the show these characters do. Vander and Vi built their personalities from their hearts, their core. Silco and Powder, built theirs in dissociation and distrust. Still, Silco finds this bridge with Jinx, (trying to engineer the certainty of loyalty or trust) because they have endured betrayal. At the end of the day, they both craved for connection and acceptance, and had to let it out in a backwards way. Trust and connection is something we do for ourselves, no matter how many times we might be betrayed or abandoned, it is hard to recognize that. Sorry for the tangent and disorganized thoughts.
Jehan Sandra@sandrasalem
2025-02-03 15:55:04 +0000 UTCI was raised in the same dynamic as Jinx with Silco. I do understand Jinx because I still feel fragmented and split inside. It causes a lot of problems for the child. Silco is not a complete monster but it is not a good parent. He was projecting his own inner wounded child in Powder and fed her up with hatred and distrust on others. So, the only thing that they had in common is their perceived betrayal of the older brother/sister. That kept Silco going on and maybe he was okay with that, but Powder as a child was totally destroyed by this notion of being abandoned by Vi. Even if that concept of abandonment is true it was obviously devastating to her. A healthy parent would have change her perception about it to make her feel good about herself, her worth, making her feel whole again. Silco failed Powder and fed Jinx, which in my eyes is not what caregivers should be about. I remember this phrase from a teacher I had: A good father is about being in the moment what his child needs him to be.
Jehan Sandra@sandrasalem
2025-02-03 14:37:36 +0000 UTCThis is a reply to Kim, idk why Patreon won't let me reply to a reply's reply. I don't find any of this to be relevant at all. I've never claimed that Silco should never have any child work for him. My claim is that if you find someone who is wholly unstable with a bubbling layer of core trauma, bringing them into a war effort without providing any way to resolve the underlying trauma -- isn't great. I'm taking the culture of the underground into great consideration. The examples with Vander and the kids, and Benzo and Ekko are incomparable. Them participating in these things is how they make their way, they have a robust communal support structure around them the entire time, and they have a shared goal of resistance and revolution. This is very healthy, all things considered. Ekko, and the kids pre-ep 3 didn't have some huge underlying trauma going unaddressed. They were doing operations in the undercity, then they were socializing with their people, living life, then doing it all over again. This is great. I'm not claiming that the kids should be in some super safe environment away from all dangers. I'm saying that Silco killing Vander, then taking in his daughter, and putting her on the warpath to be his right hand without meaningfully dealing with the underlying trauma is likely to result in what Jinx ended up being 6 years later. My main claim is just that if Jinx's longitudinal well-being was the priority, she might have been able to become something else entirely if her developmental years weren't spent in that anti-social environment. The other environments mentioned aren't anti-social. Anti-sociality exacerbates her core wound tremendously due to the nature of it inclining her to avoid connection out of fear of further pain. I acknowledge this might be a big ask, considering the means Silco has available to him in terms of resources, options, and his disposition to wanting Zaun's sovereignty, so, I don't want to make this seem like a huge condemnation. My main point is that I can see other people in the undercity who would have found a way to give Powder a way to exist in a social environment such that it's possible her core wound wouldn't have solidified as much as it did. Though, seemingly, Silco was initially going to kill her, so, this seems like a bit of an improvement to that.
Harris
2025-02-02 11:25:43 +0000 UTCGood point! Yeah, he could also genuinely believe the things he's saying which can be seen as manipulations, though, I'd still say that's overriding the explicitly stated desires of Jinx by trying to force her down a path he's deemed to be correct. I don't find this to be a healthy way to interact with a caree that you're guiding. I wouldn't say he's a bad father, I just don't like the clean label of "good father" given in the poll. I'd honestly put him in a similar bucket to Ambessa. Their actions were plenty different, but the underlying mechanism are similar in areas. The main difference is that Mel is much more stable so Ambessa's failings aren't as pronounced as Silco's, and she had 1000x the resources Silco had, financially, family-wise, education-wise, etc.
Harris
2025-02-02 11:08:43 +0000 UTCNo worries about it being long, I'm always happy to trade ideas about Arcane. Same thing goes for mine though, it's terribly long so feel free to skip or w/e. I'll go point by point so I don't talk past you. > Silco does not lock her into anything. There was no “adopt my world view or else” from Silco ever. I'm not saying he gave Jinx an ultimatum or anything. I'm saying this is an implicit action from Silco, and the outcome would result in Jinx adopting his cause by default in the vast majority of cases. To expand on why I think this, I'd say it's because it fits with Powder's core need perfectly. Why would she not take him up on joining his group and adopting his effort at that point? What else would she choose? Ekko isn't a resistance leader at this point, everyone she knows is dead, and Silco's setup is a near carbon copy of her previous group, yet, there's now room for her to be destructive, unrestrictively violent, murderous without consequence, etc, all due to being a part of this guerilla resistance. I'd argue that Silco giving her the offer of partaking in this is locking her in. Just like I'd say that some gang members recruited as vulnerable youth are locked into that situation by the offer being extended. I make it a point to separate his interactions with her as adults, and when he's raising her as a teenager. > She is her own person with her own drive after all. I agree as an adult, but, that was the whole point of her dilemma throughout the season, it was breaking free of the path she was on with Silco, and choosing the possibility of one with Vi. >Jinx is motivated to work on the weapon for his validation, yes, but we do not see Silco leverage that against her. There is no dialogue from Silco where he says anything like “I’ll accept you if…”, “I’ll be happy with you if…”, or anything like that. That's not all Silco said, he said "Today's screw up will set us back weeks", and "I need to know I can rely on you", he tried to connect with her a bit, then he told Jinx to take some time off. I don't think this is a manipulation attempt by him. I think this is a fairly normal conversation, I'm just saying due to the need to not be disappointed in, Jinx would naturally go to great lengths to regain that validation. If i mentioned that Silco was manipulating her here, I definitely retract that, I'll go back and read. >Jinx’s drive to feel useful comes from her own abandonment issues that she had before she met Silco >Fans see that Jinx wants his approval and mistake that for Silco using it against her Right, I don't think Silco turned Powder into Jinx at all, my whole point is that there were likely things he could have done which would have resulted in Jinx being more well-balanced, having better coping mechanisms, a better support structure, a better state of maturity, etc. My whole point was just that for Silco to get a outright good dad badge, he would have needed to take some actions which map onto the goal of setting Jinx up for a successful future or reliable self sustainability in general. Though, I don't think he even wanted that for himself, so, I understand how in his mind he might have thought he was doing a bang-up job. >Jinx’s killing of enforcer’s is justifiable. I'm curious what your argument is for Jinx killing those enforcers when she could have gotten the crystal and escaped without doing that. Would you provide it in the form of a set of premises which lead you to that conclusion? I'm familiar with these arguments due to real life parallels people make them for. But, I haven't been able to consistently justify the random killing of enforcers in this exact situation. I'm still thinking about it, though. Regardless, I don't morally judge Jinx for it at all, as, I'm leaning toward it being justifiable, but, haven't formulated an air-tight argument. > The river baptism can be interpreted in many ways, but I think your interpretation is too literal. I'm not sure what you mean by my interpretation of the river baptism, I'm not sure I referenced that directly. My serial killer analogy was unrelated to Jinx, though, I think she's technically a serial killer lol. Regardless, I don't think his advice is necessarily bad in a vacuum, but, it's incredibly naive for him to think that his speeches will result in some foundational shift in Jinx such that her trauma will no longer boil up without being addressed. This isn't how anyone ever resolves fundamental trauma. You can't be inspired out of devastating existential and psychological trauma with telling someone who is struggling dearly that they're strong, and will be fine if they become stronger. It just doesn't come close to mapping onto anything useful, as we see in the show. This is a common issue with people who experience existential revelation. Silco had a life changing moment and was able to cleanly become the Silco we know today, and, he thinks by relaying this to Jinx that she can do the same, but, that's not really how things work. I can point to countless examples, AA meetings, people reading self-help books and not finding meaningful change from them, people getting insanely good inspiring advice then not using it due to their old habits being too strong, etc. These are platitudes which sound nice, but, they aren't doing the actual effort to help someone make meaningful change. Resolving things with Vi would have helped Jinx bring about meaningful change in one way or another, yet Silco denied her that. > If a Dad says ‘hey this trauma can break you, but you can also come out the other side of it strong’, and ‘you are strong now, exactly as you are’ is that bad parenting? The use of “perfect” is in a ‘all kids are perfect in their parents eyes’ kinda way NOT “perfect” in a perfect killing machine way. He doesn’t encourage her to kill, in fact it's the opposite, there is more than 1 example of him being displeased with her killing someone, and yells at her for it or tells her to take time off. Does the first part make him a bad parent in a vacuum? No. Does it make him a bad parent in the context of everything else mentioned above? Yes, but, I don't think it's malicious. However, as I've mentioned elsewhere, plenty of parents fail their children with the best intentions. This might mostly come down to a wording issue, as I don't think Silco is a vindictive or intentionally harmful parent, but, he's failed to provide Jinx with what she needs. I also keep in mind that we're talking about a Chembaron Mob Boss here who had a traumatized 12 year old dropped into his lap, literally, so, I think it's entirely reasonable for him to not be the most competent parent. Though, don't get me wrong, he does some explicitly harmful stuff as well with the instances of manipulation and removal of agency from Jinx. A good parallel would be how Vander handled issues related to Vi. When Vi was wanting to crash out on the enforcers in episodes 1 and 2, he first gave her tangible reasons for how this action would be antithetical to her goal in the first place, made her aware of what she was overlooking(losing loved ones in war), then eased her agitation by saying he'd handle it. He didn't just give her a speech about how she shouldn't do what she's doing, then continue to let the unrest within Vi fester, he alleviated it which caused Vi to cleanly change her course and outlook. Vi of course tried to turn herself in here, but, he handled that as well. This is hall of fame parenting, and there are plenty other instances from Vander. >For me, the issue is that he is majorly projecting his own trauma onto hers as if it mapped 1:1, and that is unhelpful. Totally agree. >This opinion, “despite Jinx showing underlying signs of a desire to revert”, has a question mark on it for me. What does it mean for Jinx to “revert”? To emotionally rewind into a 12 year old? To erase her mental illness? To pretend she hasn’t lived years of experience that have changed who she is? Not claiming that you are saying any of that, just shooting off examples. I could have explained this better, I don't mean revert to a child by any means, that'd be a disaster. My understanding is that when Jinx is entertaining the idea of being Powder again, she's just willing to let back in that entire other side of her personality which she's been forced to abandon when she adopted the protective shell which is Jinx. The show shows many instances of Jinx being a protector of Powder, the Enemy music video you mentioned is a great example of this, and there are a few spots in the show. When Jinx says she wants to be Powder again, she just means to be vulnerable again, to be hopeful again, to be unjaded, and approachable again, to be able to create connections and trust again, etc. Jinx has none of these traits of openness, she necessarily can't have them due to her core trauma being a fear of rejection/abandonment. Jinx wants to revert back to being able to have these traits incorporated within her again, but, she can't do it unless Vi builds a bridge to her and they heal the core wound. I don't think that Powder = happy, Jinx would never be pure happy Powder again, she'd always be a mix of Jinx and Powder. But, that mix is what she's screaming out for at every turn by trying to reconcile with Vi. > I don’t agree that reuniting with Vi is her ‘core’ psychological want. It is ‘a big’ want, but not the ‘core’ one. I'm not sure how to argue this, it seems like the show makes a point to make it explicit that she prioritizes Vi's validation over Silco's. Jinx went through crazy effort to get the Fortified Hextech Gemstone for Silco's validation after she made that mess on the airship. Once Vi and her reunited in episode 6, Jinx dropped the gemstone which represents Silco's validation without a second thought. She had no clue what even happened to it. In episode 7 Jinx was sitting on the bridge and was seemingly going to let Ekko and Caitlyn take the Hextech Gemstone back to Piltover. Even if she knew Marcus was there, Marcus giving the gemstone back to Silco would be a huge optics loss for Jinx, and she wouldn't have done anything to regain Silco's validation after losing it. She was fine with this while Vi was heading back to her. Once Vi turned around to help Caitlyn and Ekko, Jinx overflowed and secured the Gemstone. At the final scene Jinx was pleading with Vi to kill Caitlyn to prove that Vi prioritized Jinx over Caitlyn, all the while saying how Silco betrayed them and that he was a liar, etc. In a literal life and death choice between Silco and Vi, Jinx chose Vi by killing Silco. Jinx was always trying to trade Silco's validation for Vi's. She only defaulted back to Silco when she was unsure if she could actually reliably attain Vi's validation and acceptance, as Jinx couldn't live with losing both. I can expand more on this if desired. > well she had a perfect opportunity to reunite and run off with her when she kidnapped Vi, but she didn't I don't think this is viable, the bridge has to be built again. Jinx's insecurities need more of a conduit for this to happen, IMO. I always thought in Jinx's mind, she thought she'd sacrifice Silco, and Vi would sacrifice Caitlyn, resulting in a catalyst which would allow them to fully reform their bond by eliminating any other possible interpersonal distractions. > I think Jinx’s line ‘I thought you could love me even though I am different’, is closer to her ‘core’ want. She craves unconditional love and that expresses itself through her trying to prove her usefulness to both Vi & Silco, because in the past she felt like she was only loved and valued if she were useful (and yes this stems from BEFORE Silco, but Silco having Jinx work for him did not help). I more or less agree. The only caveat being idk if she wanted unconditional love, or wanted to be able to rise to the level required to reliably keep Vi's love, even with her shortcomings. >Don’t forget, Jinx states that it wasn’t Silco who made her a Jinx, it was VI. The initial dynamic between the sisters should not be overlooked in how Jinx’s problems developed. Vi-Jinx has its share of heavy flaws, and is not really Jinx’s “true path to healing”. A true path to healing can not be outsourced to someone else’s validation, whether that’s Silco’s OR Vi’s. Yeah, but, I'd say that's even more reason to believe that Vi is the key to Jinx's healing. If it wasn't then Jinx constantly trying to trade Silco's validation for Vi wouldn't be as strong of an impulse as it is in the show. The path to healing can 100% be outsourced to the person who initially caused you that trauma. There are nuances, of course, but, this tends to help especially if the person can't resolve it themselves after trying. Even more, after they gained validation from another source. I don't think Vi is the magic key to unlocking Jinx's perfect mental health, just a necessary component in this case. What is your belief for why she's seeking Vi out so desperately if not out of need? > The initial dynamic between the sisters should not be overlooked in how Jinx’s problems developed Would you expand on this? Just to be clear, I totally agree, Silco had virtually nothing to do with Jinx's core trauma. My main point is that he let it run unchecked throughout her developmental years, possibly through little fault of his own. >I will say that, during the scene where Silco lies about Vi, he is being stabbed multiple times in the face with a needle and is trying to cool the situation down. I don’t know about you, but if someone physically pinned me and attacked me with a needle, I would do a lot worse than using manipulative language to get her to stop. I think Silco's action was the only viable one here, actually. He can possibly overpower Jinx, but, that doesn't result in anything desired. If he's able to restabilize Jinx, diffuse the situation such that she'll continue the weapon, and have her dependency to Silco refreshed, that's worth 100 needle stabs compared to the alternative if she spirals out and they have a fallout. I think his actions were correct both from a practical perspective and a tactically manipulative perspective. I just can't think his actions were only practical due to him lying saying that Vi was only back for the crystal. He knows that's not the case, or has no reason to believe it is the case. But, he knows that if he plants that seed of doubt in Jinx, she can't cleanly trade Silco for Vi due to the chance that Vi doesn't actually care about her. I don't think Jinx fully bought this even, as we see her weighing possibilities for the rest of the episode on the bridge. To sorta put a cap on my take of Silco, I'm not trying to apply maliciousness to his actions at all points, I think he cares for her a lot, wants to do right by her but fails in some cases due to inexperience and his own psychological biases. If I didn't respond to anything specific just let me know, some stuff I didn't highlight just because I'm not sure if it's a response to stuff I said or just the general conversation around the show and characters.
Harris
2025-02-02 11:02:00 +0000 UTCThis is stupid long, so please don't get eye-strain reading it. Don't even read it, I'm just bouncing off your perspective to vent my own thoughts. Silco does not lock her into anything. There was no “adopt my world view or else” from Silco ever. He has influence as an adult certainly, but “locking in” is overstating it, and I dislike it when people give Silco TOO much credit for Jinx’s character. She is her own person with her own drive after all. The line between father-daughter and employer-employee is blurred between them, and that causes problems in their dynamic. Jinx is motivated to work on the weapon for his validation, yes, but we do not see Silco leverage that against her. There is no dialogue from Silco where he says anything like “I’ll accept you if…”, “I’ll be happy with you if…”, or anything like that. All he says to her is “Fear haunts us all”, which is not manipulative. If anything, it’s an admission that he is also afraid and that is a positive thing to share with her. Jinx’s drive to feel useful comes from her own abandonment issues that she had before she met Silco. We know she already had this issue from her breakdown in ep 3 after being left behind by Vi & crew. Fans see that Jinx wants his approval and mistake that for Silco using it against her. Making the weapon was JINX’s idea. He never asked her to even get the hex-marble in the 1st place, it was self-motivated. So from that perspective, he is encouraging her to push through and finish *her own* project, that *she* came up with. Jinx has more agency than you are crediting her for. Yes, his goal for Zaun’s independence will benefit from the weapon, but it wasn’t something he ordered her to get. He was surprised by her acquiring it at all. Jinx’s killing of enforcer’s is justifiable. Figuring out if she has a clear philosophical backing for it is difficult though. I recommend watching or re-visiting the “Enemy” music video, which highlights how the ingredients for Jinx were already forming in Powder. The video gives more insight into her experiences in Zaun and with the enforcers. The seeds toward eventual violent action as a reaction to being made to feel defenseless in her environment with enforcers on the streets are clear in the mv. The river baptism can be interpreted in many ways, but I think your interpretation is too literal. He says things like ‘betrayal can break you or make you stronger’, ‘you are strong now like you were meant to be’ this is NOT ‘be a ruthless serial killer for me or else’. It’s not even bad advice. If a Dad says ‘hey this trauma can break you, but you can also come out the other side of it strong’, and ‘you are strong now, exactly as you are’ is that bad parenting? The use of “perfect” is in a ‘all kids are perfect in their parents eyes’ kinda way NOT “perfect” in a perfect killing machine way. He doesn’t encourage her to kill, in fact it's the opposite, there is more than 1 example of him being displeased with her killing someone, and yells at her for it or tells her to take time off. The line that people get stuck on is “let Powder die”, but I don’t think this line is as literal as some take it. Some seem to think that he literally means kill off your inner child, or kill off this part of your identity, but that ignores the context of everything else he says. He follows “let Powder die” with “so the fear of pain will no longer control you” What he means is “let the PAST die, so that trauma no longer controls you in the present”, but he is using ‘Powder’ as the metaphor for the past. Now, framing it that way is unhelpful and unhealthy for Jinx, but the intent is not harm, it’s just not the right advice for Jinx. For me, the issue is that he is majorly projecting his own trauma onto hers as if it mapped 1:1, and that is unhelpful. However, it is normal for a parent to guide a child with stories of their own experiences. He is trying to help by telling her what worked for him, it just didn’t work for Jinx in this case. He is misguided in assuming Jinx feels the same way about Vi, as he does about Vander. This opinion, “despite Jinx showing underlying signs of a desire to revert”, has a question mark on it for me. What does it mean for Jinx to “revert”? To emotionally rewind into a 12 year old? To erase her mental illness? To pretend she hasn’t lived years of experience that have changed who she is? Not claiming that you are saying any of that, just shooting off examples. Jinx ‘reverting’ would be horrific and unhealthy. It is regression. Vi’s insistence on her being Powder again is unhealthy. Vi wanting her to ‘be the version of you I remember from when you were a child’ is (understandable), but just as unhelpful as Silco’s misguidance. I dislike the line of thinking that Powder = happy, healthy, uncomplicated (don't think that's what you are saying, just venting again at fandom interpretations in general here). Powder was struggling, she had issues that fans erase or forget in the course of blaming Silco for all of her personality flaws and problems. If Jinx is showing signs of ‘reverting’, as you say, then I certainly HOPE a father would discourage it! I don’t agree that reuniting with Vi is her ‘core’ psychological want. It is ‘a big’ want, but not the ‘core’ one. There is a reason she has BOTH Vi and Silco at the tea party table at the end, and not just Vi. If it were just about reuniting with Vi, well she had a perfect opportunity to reunite and run off with her when she kidnapped Vi, but she didn't. I think Jinx’s line ‘I thought you could love me even though I am different’, is closer to her ‘core’ want. She craves unconditional love and that expresses itself through her trying to prove her usefulness to both Vi & Silco, because in the past she felt like she was only loved and valued if she were useful (and yes this stems from BEFORE Silco, but Silco having Jinx work for him did not help). Don’t forget, Jinx states that it wasn’t Silco who made her a Jinx, it was VI. The initial dynamic between the sisters should not be overlooked in how Jinx’s problems developed. Vi-Jinx has its share of heavy flaws, and is not really Jinx’s “true path to healing”. A true path to healing can not be outsourced to someone else’s validation, whether that’s Silco’s OR Vi’s. Where we agree, and I think this is one of Silco’s worst missteps as a parent (other than the obvious crime boss stuff), is the lying and forced separation from Vi. This is straight up awful. But I’m still going to play a slight devil’s advocate. I will say that, during the scene where Silco lies about Vi, he is being stabbed multiple times in the face with a needle and is trying to cool the situation down. I don’t know about you, but if someone physically pinned me and attacked me with a needle, I would do a lot worse than using manipulative language to get her to stop. If your fully grown (old enough to have graduated high school) child physically attacks you, are you a bad parent for using available means to defend yourself or calm the situation? He doesn’t shove her off or fight back. He uses his words as his defense. Now, they were terrible and isolating words, but are we really going to ignore every action in that scene outside of him lying? It didn’t happen in a vacuum. The rest of the separation from Vi is full villain territory from Silco, though. Trying to kill Vi is an obvious no-no, lol.
Kim
2025-02-01 13:05:18 +0000 UTCThere is a high-level of cultural acceptance towards child-labor in Zaun. We see multiple examples. It is just that Silco and Jinx get singled out because Silco is a villain with a lot of haters. In the first episode the kids are stealing items for Vander’s black market. Vander knows that they do this and is okay with it (so long as they don’t steal from Piltover). Do fans give Vander the label of 'bad father'? for letting his kids participate in his black market affairs? Ekko works in Benzo’s shop. One of the chembarons has their son working in a factory, this one stands out because a chembaron would be rich, and yet they still have their kid going to work. It’s only Silco having Jinx work for him that gets picked out as an unforgivable abusive evil. Completely ignoring the context of the culture they are living in.
Kim
2025-02-01 09:58:07 +0000 UTCYeah I think that is what caused a lot of the difficulty in the stream. We are trying to answer about being a father when at the same time he is also a mob boss with Jinx as an employee! And part of that comes with putting her at risk because that is part of her role.
Lenny
2025-02-01 09:42:18 +0000 UTCSomething about the Jinx and Silco dynamic that I think often causes confusion, is that they have both a dad-daughter dynamic, but also an employer-employee dynamic. 99% of the flaws in Silco's parenting come from the times where it is more employer-employee. Things like “build a weapon” or “scout on drug shipments” are obviously bad through the lens of a father who should protect a daughter, but it makes perfect sense in the lens of a boss giving an employee tasks. The lines are blurred in a tug-of-war between the 2 roles, one being a good father and the other being an effective boss. He doesn't refer to her as his 'daughter' until the very last scene in the last episode. He doesn’t totally accept the role of father until the very end, even though he raised her. I think many fans presume he is acting as a 'parent' when he is really more of an 'employer', so they judge his 'parenting' with the wrong framework. Silco was never *trying* to be a parent, many of the work/crime related goals that Jinx has are simply her job.
Kim
2025-02-01 09:37:16 +0000 UTCSee, from his point of view, Vi is to Jinx what Vander is to him. I believe he thinks it best for Jinx to not go down that route, and he believes that based on his own experience with Vander. A lot of people see it as him being selfish and lying (gaslighting even) to keep her to himself, I don't think that's entirely true or fair. When he later says she (Vi) will leave her again very quickly when she realizes she isn't Powder anymore, I do think he fully believes it - just as Vander rejects the harsher man that Silco has become. That being said, personally I think he's wrong in thinking that. It's easy to see, from our point of view, that what he does is wrong and certainly not what's best for Jinx. But from his point of view, I don't think it's as clear as that. When I wrote he does the best with what he has, that includes what damage he has from his own trauma. I fully stand by that he was the best father he could ever be, given who he is, his baggage, given HIM. And then, to sum up crudely your counter-point, his best could be seen as not good enough to be called a good father. And if you want to insist on that, then I won't argue further, you are certainly allowed to think that way.
Simpelicity
2025-01-31 21:47:16 +0000 UTCYou're correct in your use of father figure, In this case, I think Silco takes on the role of Guardian, Father, and Father Figure. Sometimes people'll say things like "person x was a father figure to me", but they will still have a different guardian/parent. As for the second part, Powder's core want was showing that she was useful to her family in the way of being useful in their resistance to Piltover. She settled for being useful to Silco and his version of that cause. This is highlighted by Jinx choosing the possibility of reaching a resolution with Vi over Silco every single time, despite Silco's efforts at flaring up Jinx's insecurities to drive her back to him. Jinx is most terrified of trying to gain validation from Vi, failing to do so, and losing Silco's validation in the process. Silco manipulating this part of her is the worst offense, in my opinion. He knows Vi won't reject Powder, yet he gaslit Jinx into thinking that, he knew Vi wasn't just there for the Hextech Gemstone, yet he gaslit her into thinking that. He tried to kill Vi multiple times before giving powder even the option to resolve her trauma in any meaningful way. This resulted in Jinx being denied a path to heal her trauma and resolve her insecurities, and it left her tethered to a runner-up source of validation. Overruling your daughter's autonomy and preventing her from pursuing a stated desire that would have saved her from tremendous grief is what prevents Silco from having the clean and tidy label of "Good Father", imo. I still think he cares dearly for Jinx, and I don't think he aimed to hurt her at all. I think he thought he could resolve things himself over time, but, that inconsideration in terms of agency is the exact issue. Plenty of parents do irreparable harm with the best of intentions. There are a few more issues, but, I just wanted to touch on the idea that "Silco is providing validation to Jinx, which is a good thing" when compared to what he's depriving her of.
Harris
2025-01-31 03:45:51 +0000 UTCAs the person that asked if being a good father is the same as being a good father figure, maybe it's because I am not a native english speaker, but I don't think I ever would've thought of it as simply, are you the biological father or not. Instinctively my understanding was that father is the caregiver (blood-related or not) and father figure is more of a rolemodel kinda deal - and that doesn't necessarily apply to only the people that raised you. As a caregiver, I think Silco does his best with what he has, that should count as being a good father. I think he's a very poor rolemodel though. Also, a lot of people who would say Silco is a bad father would say he uses her. To some extent it's true, but it somewhat seems to be part of the culture? The Undercity is a family that has very little and has to stick together to survive kinda mentality. Powder/Jinx's obsession with showing she is strong dates from Powder days, before Silco, because she wanted very badly to show she could contribute to the good of the group. Is Silco using her, or validating her, giving her the opportunity to contribute to her family's wellbeing? Kinda both, no?
Simpelicity
2025-01-31 02:56:20 +0000 UTCDidn't have time to structure this as much as i wanted, hopefully it's coherent enough. Just wanted to expand on some of the comments made during the stream, as the youtube comments are pretty limited. When thinking of what makes a good parent, I think it's necessary to have a few requirements: 1. The parent has guided their child to a personality and mental state which gives them the best chance to carry out their own goals, independently maintain their own life, build relationships, deal with conflict without melting down, etc. Standard "well adjusted" stuff. This includes stifling what could be considered antisocial, self-destructive, or other "non well-adjusted" traits or behaviors. 2. The parent acts in the name of true well-being for their child, not what they consider to be the child's well-being due to some bias at hand. An example would be: A parent who keeps their kids locked in the house for 20 years due to fears of the dangers of the outside world -- I'd say this isn't acting in the name of the true well-being of the child, but, the parent's objectively silly concept of their child's well-being. 3. Giving the child autonomy at maturity. 4. Provide the stabilization qualities of basic psychological need mentioned at around 1:01:00 in the above Patreon video. Silco has failed at the first 3 of these aspects, and succeeded at the 4th. I'd argue this isn't good enough to make someone a good parent. For example, If a parent notices their child has homicidal and antisocial tendencies, then not only fails to quell them, but actively feeds and reinforces them, it doesn't matter if they provide requirement 4 once they've created that person. That person is unlikely to able to thrive in a well-rounded sense long term. I'd argue this is the general whole goal of a parent, to guide their child toward longitudinal stability, autonomy, and to have the best ability possible to persevere and navigate through life events/conflicts, etc. The issue we run into is the matter of philosophical perspective. To recap what Silco's done: - He's taken in a terribly traumatized 12 year old, trauma incited by his actions, then, in his first interaction with her he locks her into a destructive life-goal of the general destruction of his opposition. - He's utilized her as his main attack dog, positioning her such that she'll be a serial killer to maintain his validation. (I wouldn't call the piltover bombing an act of war, she set the fire trap with intention to kill Enforcers as she escaped. She likely could have escaped with just the fire distraction alone. You could argue that killing Enforcers is justifiable from Zaunites, but, I don't think Jinx would have an internal philosophical justification for this.) - He has reinforced the notion of her becoming this perfect ruthless Jinx, arguably because Powder is of no use to him, despite Jinx showing underlying signs of a desire to revert. - He's manipulated her thoroughly by lying to her about Vi, reinforced her insecurities just so he can soothe them to foster continued dependence(During the scene where Jinx confronts him with the eye poker), and attempted to forcibly take away Jinx's choice about her future by trying to kill Vi multiple times. This reunion with VI is her true path to healing, and it's her core psychological want. I'd argue that depriving someone of this is one of the worst things you can do to someone you're a guardian of. # Results of Silco's developmental parenting: - Jinx being unable to maintain relationships outside of the one where she does tricks for a crumb Silco's validation. - It's left her unable to self-manage without overflowing in crisis. - It's resulted in her alienation from both Piltover and the true citizens of Zaun(Ekko's group, and the citizens that seem to be having their lives negatively impacted by shimmer and Silco). - It's left her in a state of identity limbo. One could argue that Jinx might have had some of these traits without Silco, but, I disagree. For instance, if Benzo were still alive, and Benzo raised Powder and Ekko, I think it's reasonable to assume that Powder would have found an entirely new stable path to traverse. I also understand that the societal setup of Zaun is entirely different than ours in the modern west. I'm not even sure if they have widespread schooling, despite producing some brilliant people. I'm fairly confident they have no social programs, mental health specialists, or intelligent methods of dealing with mental health issues. Silco might have thought he was doing right by Powder with his actions, I'm not arguing he wanted to harm Jinx's. I believe his actions were a mix of attempted altruism mixed with his own psychological influences causing him to take certain manipulative actions. I can also see the argument that there's no real need for this standard goal of producing a "standup" member of society considering the situation Piltover and Zaun are in currently. However, it's hard to consider this argument after Silco essentially admitted his philosophy was wrong(or wasn't entirely correct) when talking to Vander's statue after having his perspective changed through caring for Jinx. It's also hard to ignore this lens when asked the questions: - Why does Silco want freedom for Zaun from Piltover's oppression? - What would a society look like in a sovereign zaun? Surely you need stable and autonomous citizens, with the ability to reasonably resolve conflict, right? What would Jinx's role be in a Sovereign Zaun? Her enacting things like blowing up 6 enforcers works fine if you're acting as a rebellious state. It wouldn't be viable if you're an official member of a autonomous state whose neighbors are expecting diplomacy. What would happen if Zaun gained sovereignty and Vi was still alive? Would Silco be fine with Vi and Jinx reuniting and reaching a resolution? That's the only way I can see Jinx stabilizing long term. It's possible that he'd be fine with it after Zaun's independence. It's hard to know. Regardless, I'd argue that for Silco's philosophy of valuing Zaun's independence would mean that he'd value Zaun's stability if he wanted for Zaun to prosper independently in perpetuity. To do that, you need stable societal units, which comes in the form of our traditional understanding of what it means for an individual to be well-adjusted in the first place. Being well adjusted with respect to the societal goal of long term prosperity and stability. These things seem inextricably bound, so, It feels a bit hard to say that it's a positive for Silco to raise Jinx as he did, as it's inconsistent with his implicitly stated values. # Final Thoughts The main reason I dislike a general "yes" to the question of Silco being a good father is because his actions don't cleanly map on to any consistent idea of a good parent with respect to the goal of parenting itself. Though, it's fairly impossible to know what could have been. - He could have taken in Jinx, and not involved her in his war effort. - He could have let Powder go, which might have resulted in her reuniting with Ekko, and both of them revenge spiraling to their death to kill Silco for what he did to Vander and Benzo. - He could have let powder go which might have resulted in her being too destroyed by those events to continue on. - etc #Summary Why Silco is a bad father: primarily for failing to give Jinx the tools to thrive even if Zaun gained independence, for seemingly feeding her unstable traits, and for not giving her the option to have a path toward healing her core wound which is her perceived abandonment from Vi. Why Silco is a good father: primarily for giving Jinx an avenue to achieve a sense of purpose and heal her trauma related to her feeling as she has no value, for helping her properly contextualize her sense of identity, and for being a rather reliable support figure in terms of providing for her psychological needs, even if with manipulation. All in all, I'd say Silco is a bood gad father.
Harris
2025-01-30 22:21:38 +0000 UTCSad that i missed this live
Patrick Dawson
2025-01-30 15:49:43 +0000 UTC
