Five More Minutes

Keith may feel trapped now but wait until Natani decides to take their relationship to the next level.

Glenn Sellers

Always fun seeing Keith with his snugly wolf ^^ LOVE THIS PAIR!

belmontzar

@tom, reading this shit makes me ashamed of being a patreon. I am not sharing the same air as those people. good luck with them.

Rhalga

you totally missed the joke here, didn't you? or you decided to turn it into something else, which is poor sportsmanship. either way: F

Rhalga

some good bait you got there netari, *man

ChairsForSatan

*She. She’s a female. Thought she was a guy for some time and accepted she wasn’t. I’m pretty sure the characters even started addressing her as she/her at a point. Not a big deal.

Jadon Ayala

^ *insert ‘This is Bait’ meme here*

Your name

Well look at the bright side Keith, at least you're not on your back right now or this situation would be a whole lot harder for you.

Sogen

A nazi walks into a bar with 2 other people and sits down...

ChairsForSatan

Bro.... 😭😭😭 r u for real right now? Like genuinely?? Im sorry if i sounded like i was saying autistic people are mentally unwell, i did not say that, nor mean that at all, but still. You did not understand what i said... AT ALL. Fyi, i am neurodivergent too. 😐 And saying "it can only be seen as transphobic from a trans angle" is genuinely also a very weird thing to say. If you want to get into nit picking i can totally get into nitpicking, but i really dont think you're going to like what i'll say.

Gryffin

Gryffin, you misread my original comment entirely. I offered a story writing critique defending accusations against a person you claim wrote undertones of transphobia, using an example of a different real world struggle, and you took it as someone who, in your own words, is “mentally unwell”. I was never mad about you shitting on representation for Asperger’s syndrome, my whole comment was about how people shouldn’t enforce whatever representation they feel should be enforced on writers. What I was mad at was that you, in a very stuck-up manner, called people with Asperger’s syndrome “mentally unwell” in order to defend trans people, which is a massive hypocrisy. It’d be like claiming that you’re trying to help a minority by giving them a seat, but do so by shoving a different minority off.

ArtAnimationFan

I’m all too happy to continue being as vocal and supportive as I can be for this to be as welcoming and safe a space for LGBTQ+ fans and allies alike, Gryffin ❤️

AlaricLives87

They're humans, and ive never stated otherwise. The problem is that THEY dont believe WE deserve the same rights that they do. Being told outright "yes this character you've been misgendering is trans and that is not up to debate it is cannon no matter how much you argue about it that will not change" would shut them and their transphobia down! 😐 as simple as that. There WILL be sides when one of those sides are with the people who believe others dont deserve rights, respect and a listening ear.

Gryffin

Following the discusdions here and taking part in them showed for me that they will not or only by chance lead to anyone changing his mind. Also because Patreon comments are not suitable for real discussions and probably also not ment for them. Its more about taking a stand. Imho this should be done calm and respectfull. But as You said: at the moment the world is getting rougher for everyone not fitting into conservativ role models which imho is a massiv backstep in our difficult times. Especially since the pandemic and social media have led to many people being trapped in their respective bubbles. Therefore, I see it as very important to stay in conversation and not to see 'the others' as enemies, but as fellow human beings with whom we share our world. For me, Twokinds is a very good metaphor for this. Uups, I‘m writing too much again.

Joshu Kel'Machan

"Subtle" is never enough for the transphobes. He, you and I know that. 💔 His story is indeed in a position against discrimination. And yet he chooses to let this happen. I understand being in though situations where you dont want to risk losing an income, but by ignoring this entire issue, he is actively going against the message of his own story, either he wants to do that or not. ☹️

Gryffin

In my opinion he does, but in a more subtile way. Maybe to stay attractive for all sorts of fans not repelling anyone (he is earning his living here which absolutly has to be accepted) or even to set a signal because Twokinds originaly was also created to draw attention to existing discrimination.

Joshu Kel'Machan

Thiiiis!! Exactly this! Like i am so sure that there were so many people exited to see a free patreon being active only to be met with people who dont want to listen : me included, I was stalking the comments, terrified seeing everyone being transphobic and only started being active and commenting when i saw you guys fighting for a spot in this place that is so lovely and should be absolutely positive. Especially due to political climates being against us right now, tom speaking up about this now would genuinely do so much good. Its a shame that he wont.

Gryffin

I just hope those queer fans who may just be joining or are thinking about it will still feel welcomed enough to participate having to read anti-trans nonsense going unanswered

AlaricLives87

To be fair... now there are essentially two comment sections, one with us and one with the transphobes. Existing in the same space but blissfully blind to eachothet

Everlight ⨺⃝

You have an odd fascination with milk, K_D

AlaricLives87

Yes, he did just as he announced it. Gryffin is probably correct in his assessment.

Joshu Kel'Machan

Joshu, again, I admire you for your patience and being able to engage with them like you did, but I saw how Daemon treated you, I didn’t like it, and I’m assuming he blocked you too? Good riddance, I say. Don’t stop being you, either, even if there is ultimately no reason to be had. The try is still very much needed

AlaricLives87

I can’t apologize for why I’m constantly engaging in this, but I am still sorry if it has made things less fun for you and those who wish to enjoy Tom’s works drama free, as well as for who may or may not be turning their attention to you now for simply using correct pronouns. You don’t deserve that and there is no need to apologize for it <3

AlaricLives87

I agree with you Joshu, I feel like most of the time, when people block like this, it is due to them realizing their arguments are wrong and outweighted. Therefore meaning they are... well, wrong. But refuse to have their transphobic views change.

Gryffin

What art is saying here is genuinely such double standards. They are shtting on trans rep and are getting mad that i am "shtting" on their autism rep, and yet that "shtting" i am doing is.... telling them its unrelated to what i am saying. Ahhh, i love this place. Somehow i fear most of this is due to being uneducated and its really sad to see. Not only because this is a FURRY comic, and the furry community is KNOWN for being friendly and very much ally of the queer community, and here we are, with a buncha transphobes in the comment who cant read what im writing properly. 💔 it sucks.

Gryffin

You don't need to apologize! XD And the chirps don't bother me. It's just the constant need for conflict. Gainless engagements from both sides of the arguement. I know I've inadvertently baited some people and made it worse, for that it's me who is sorry. It just sucks.

Empty

Yesterday seemed to have been blocking day. I can‘t see some of the discutants anymore also. But it is as it is. Even as the discussion was heated: it‘s a pitty one can‘t talk anymore and many hide in their bubble.

Joshu Kel'Machan

Correct KD, it is a Game; to them. But one I am personally tired of playing. However if they just wanna troll back, can't stop them. 🤷🏾‍♂️

Daemon Blitzkrieg

I find it very telling that when you joined in and made it clear how this can affect you and other queer fans, they came at you without showing any genuine sympathy or understanding. They don’t care.

AlaricLives87

Don’t pay K_D any mind. He’s not a part of the community.

AlaricLives87

Netari, please don't play this game, it is a losing one. Unless you are farming for milk.

K_D Lawrence

But embrace the lolcow. If you view these sperg outs as entertainment, It is endless, enjoyment. But I just wish it did not shit up Tom's comment section. I have been reading twokinds since 2011, and I do not want Tom to see this nonsense. I know Alaric is my personal lolcow now.

K_D Lawrence

In this case on his ear.

Netari Icefyng

I love these comments. The sperg out produces so much milk

K_D Lawrence

*Her

Netari Icefyng

*woman

Netari Icefyng

I am very sorry, but me saying that the exemple isnt exactly related to the point i am making is NOT shtting on aspergers nor autism in the slightest, and EVEN LESS for the "sake of trans rep". And if it did seem as such, i am terribly sorry as i did not mean to do that at all. But lets be honest, i really dont think i am wrong for thinking tom did a very purposeful change when developping nat's story again and going the trans route instead of the "oh i feel like that bcs i share a mindspace with a guy." He knew that THAT was not a good way to interpret a trans-coded character. And he changed it because of that. You should not refuse to see that.

Gryffin

Or maybe I used the example because it relates to myself as someone diagnosed with aspergers syndrome? I used my own disability as an example, and you s*** on it for the sake of trans representation. Thanks for souring what I thought would be a decent conversation.

ArtAnimationFan

YEAHHH! thats what ive been saying jackie! Rep is not a "point of view" its there and if u dont accept tjat tjen its erasure!! Empty - im sorry it ends up like this too :(

Gryffin

You can just say the point flew over you head, art, theres no need to make a text wall with an unrelated exemple that might be seen as you saying that trans people are mentaly unwell 😃 but yeah you do you bud, im totally shaming the creator for something he himself decided to do ofc

Gryffin

"And then tom changed it because his comic is an unfinishes media and he realized he did not handle it well." Handle what well, the story? HIS story? The only way transphobia could have felt as an undertone before the whole ship arc was if people were looking at this from a trans angle. Let's say, for example, a sci-fi writer wrote a scientist who was very obsessed with his work, was a bit socially awkward with other people, and found humor in ways others couldn't get. The writer runs with this character for a while, but then reveals that the reason they're like this is because of brain damage from a lab accident that he was able to repair with electronics but caused the side effects that make him abnormal. Would I be in the right to claim the writer is insensitive about people with aspergers syndrome? Or should I condemn the writer for his/her story that they're trying to tell? Unless the writing was intentional, I hope anyone would agree that the answer is no. I despise the idea of labeling someone's work or mindset as having unintentionally negative undertones as it takes the person's ability to defend their viewpoints or express themselves away. "But obviously when someone says "undertone of [x]" the only thing YOU understand is "this IS [x]"" I feel like I'm being gaslighted with this statement.

ArtAnimationFan

We will NOT back down, Trans Rights are Human Rights and not up for debate or "up to interpretation" when it has been stated clear

JackieDOminic2302

If I weren't such a Basitin connoisseur, he'd also be my favorite character. By the way, I'm sorry for how thoroughly unpleasant the comment section has been with every Nat sketch lately.

AlaricLives87

Damn what a sexy man ..oh and Keith too

Seterra

Natani is and will always be my favorite character. I love everything about him. But MAN do I need to just forget the comment section exists on posts with him in it.

Empty

Let Tom run his comic as he sees fit.

Kurtis Ryan

Woah... did you... skip the entire nat arc that happened just recently???

Gryffin

Jfc, please tom do something and just said it outright that nat is trans but it isnt said in the comic bcs they dont have the term atp cause this is getting crazy and im sick of our existance being a debate even in a fandom that was, and should remain safe to anyone who doesnt fit the norms as that is quite literally what your entire comic is. Please, genuinely, i love your work, and i adore hanging around your patreon but this is just not a healthy thing to let people debate about, especially when it becomes personal and very... obviously arguments that get out of hands. Thank you for all the great work you do 💚

Gryffin

Anyway, it bears repeating that I don’t believe you’ll change your minds. You show no interest in that. Learning and understanding is not what you’re after here. It’s about disregarding representation because a transmasc character bothers you. You are threatened by it. The facts, which prove the character’s trans status, have been presented time and time again here, but are ignored because they don’t fit your narrow, insecure little narrative. Some of you will be damned before you ever use he/him pronouns, even when the author does. You just don’t care.

AlaricLives87

He*

JackieDOminic2302

What on Earth...?

SpaceCadety

Good to hear Daniel. It’s not worth engaging liars like AlaricLives87. They’ll continue to pretend that they’re trying to do the right thing, but unless they really haven’t gotten the message that you can’t change minds or viewpoints through consistent annoyance and talking down to others, they don’t actually care about any case they claim to be for. They’re just liars who set their claimed cases back.

ArtAnimationFan

What you and Art call extremist trolling, I call doing the right thing calling out anti-trans behavior, and if that is what you think is harassment enough to use the block option, then go ahead and take the coward’s way out.

AlaricLives87

Noted Art. It really getting a point where some here are just extremist trolls. I gave plenty reasons of ambiguity on this case and beyond. Scientific facts demand a total agreement without exeption of all possible variables to become a fact. Until then its a ideological theory. Im indeed leaving this thread

Daniel Benko

Well your not wrong because for you it is like that. If you want representation then we give you it, but it's yours to have. We would do that for you just not for us.

Daniel Benko

Dude, just stop. You don't get that you have a fundamentally incorrect definition of trans people. This truscum narrative you're pushing that trans people aren't valid unless they fully transition is not just wrong, it's harmful. It's invented and spread by the far right to divide the trans community with infighting. (Relevant) biologists by and large agree that it's wrong. Trans people are valid, regardless of where in their journey they are, and where they want to end up., and you don't get to say that they're not. And you can't claim to to be neurodivergent as an excuse for being a shitty person. My autism (or anyone else's for that matter) has never caused me to seig heil or say that minorities don't have the right to live, nor does it cause physical appearance to be the only thing that matters when it comes to other people, with their thoughts, identity, feelings, and emotions being completely relevant. And seeing you here essentially using actual neurodivergent people as effectively human shields to hide behind is disgusting, to be frank. And do shut up with your Rick and Morty-esque superiority complex. Your terrible grammar and blatant misuse of words makes it abundantly clear that you're not all that clever. Now take the hint and realize that you are not welcome here. Not because of your neurodivergency, but because you're a terrible person saying truly horrible things.

Dan Vaelling

Keep dismissing trans representation, Art, but neither you nor Daniel can change the fact that Natani is transmasc and goes by he/him pronouns.

AlaricLives87

Daniel, I respect your viewpoints, but I must point out that arguing with these people is pointless. They’re only here to troll and cause contention, only to hide behind a guise of a righteous when called out for their behavior. This comment sections is hitting over 250 arguing over the identity of a fictional wolf, and it’s just isn’t worth it. I highly recommend using the block function on these people. They’re not capable of having adult conversations, understanding the idea of differing viewpoints or interpretations, and they just want to annoy people to get a rise out of them.

ArtAnimationFan

*Girl and Boy

Netari Icefyng

That she secretly is okay with herself that somthing in the back of her head is nagging her that having Zen's mind in her own until present has changed her in some way or another and possibly realizes that she never really considered what she wanted until she met Keith, with the link severed it's possible as Keith pointed out she will become more confident in herself.... The fact that she has not pursued any other means of hiding her femininity other than magic and hasn't taken it further shows she must be okay with it somehow... As for what I'm talking about in a previous page Keith noted that Natani was presenting her Scent back on the basitin isles showing that she uses magic to hide her chest and her scent... which further leads me to ask the question you have asked "If Natani is so uncomfortable with herself why has she not pursued further actions to change herself into a guy?" It seems to me she only wants the outside world to percieve her as a guy, but completely opened up to this to Keith and Kathrine. I think she feels like due to her upbringin and situation where Clovis saw women as weak, effected her, though when she saw the basitin King, that changed her view, as ever since then she's acted a little diffrent and even more so now that Zen is out of her mind. The world of Two- Kinds is not reality women can be strong in this universe even more so than reality even more so due to magic... i mean aren't both dragons we've seen so far been female? Why does Nora or Reni not deal with these problems? Why is Karen perfectly okay being part Keidran?

Netari Icefyng

I was a flight Sergent of my squadron have a good day while considering the magic conundrum

Daniel Benko

I said good day, Junior Cadet.

AlaricLives87

Yes exactly. And nat would pursue it hard-core expecially so that magic is by definition technology that has mystery. So with such a powerful thing around, what conclusion would you make Netari?

Daniel Benko

Especially considring Nat knows magic you'd think She would have learned how to do such a thing.

Netari Icefyng

Who are you talking to netari? The person above you? There is that old record to settle this. And secondly, the inaction to use magic to straighten things out and make everyone satisfied in the story, which speaks volumes as to what really is going on.

Daniel Benko

Guess i'll start doing that...

Netari Icefyng

They are welcomed indeed and through technology made visible. Now, explain why in a world of magic has all this not been solved for nat? Why would natani still not be satisfied and all people around her possibly made accepting as well instantly using whatever tool they use? Such inaction speaks volumes.

Daniel Benko

What are your credentials? Because as a member of said thing I am a five star expert of it by default. Not all traits are present in every single one. Regardless, I do consider myself a different species to these standard earth humans as an improvement to this species.

Daniel Benko

Just wait till she starts snoring X_X

Netari Icefyng

If you reply to my comment i see a notification i got a reply nobody else does as far as I know, other people can read the replies if they look, I guess having a giant screen comes in handy -shrug-

Netari Icefyng

On the bio i find it odd how the updated one removed the sexuality, i thought that was something important, which shows me how unsure the author is of these bios...

Netari Icefyng

Having read all that, all I can really say with full certainty is that Natani is transmasc and goes by he/him pronouns. Trans people exist in this fandom and should be as welcomed as everyone else. Have a good day :)

AlaricLives87

Translation: YOU ARE WRONG AND MUST BE HARMED BECAUSE YOU HAVE BROKEN THE FRAGILE GLASS THAT IS MY FICTIONAL REALITY.

Netari Icefyng

I didn't answer that question and the interface here is small and shit. So I don't even know if your getting a reply or everyone is. Anyways, I have no idea, unless there more truth to the previous record for nat that I showed. I mean if one was serious about this they wouldn't take it off or invent a non visible method, right? And if so, then why not the whole body, since magic can do anything?

Daniel Benko

"Amazing. Everything word of what you just said is wrong."

Kesh

Autism/aspergers when it doesn't cripple you is a superpower in every way and threatening to most people who struggle in the technologcal world it creates. We may develop considerably slower individually but that's becuase we have more brian cells and/or more connections between them. The only thing that prevents us from taking over the planet is the lack of our ability to make mass produced children of our own. Regardless, I started with a simple question that got military responses. This wasnt a good idea becuase i am totally fine with war and conquest when an opportunity arises. This is why i live space as it is plenty to expand the terran empire i represent. I am sorry if my multiangle approach was too much. The world is more complex then what he/she said is truth. Words are not admissible in court for a reason. Yes nat can express masculine traits more than anyone, but as soon as there's a deviation it is ambiguous ammnd unreliable information. Being conclusively trans requires technology or magic. There is neither here yet. In the real world there is a difference between gender expression and being trans. The word being means physcial entity. While you can't feel being trans, you can feel like a man or woman. But feelings are private and not public. I am sorry it cannot be understood that phobias are irrational and is counter to the nature of aspergers. And that i have be threatened by an idea to have one. I for one like the idea in reality of being whstever i desire at moments notice, but cant due to tech limits. Also fyi, one trait i read of aspergers is lack of theory of mind. In other words our world is entirely made of objects and materials and no one around is considered thinking feeling being. Rather we are bio machines that can be altered. So your emotional feelings based definition are meaningless to us, as human language is to a cat. I am purpose driven and goal oriented and see the world as a series of tasks that have to happen in a particular order based on input data. The aspergers mind is well suited to a modern advanced world which is a mechanical and centrally planned one as well. I can't care less what or who someone is. But it is rather difficult to address say a curvy supermodel as something that doesn't match their appearance. I will obey if asked to, but most trans people wont even do that themselves anyway even in canada because what is happening inside a body is a private matter. Don't mean to overwhelm

Daniel Benko

That's a little more than a weighted blanket...

Netari Icefyng

odd that the sexuality vanished when the bio was redone...yet.. yeah...

Netari Icefyng

I consider you as good as if it makes you feel better. If you're on Discord, you can find me under the same name if you so wish <3

AlaricLives87

Thank You, Alaric, one sees who is a friend at the moment one makes a mistake.

Joshu Kel'Machan

Mr. Daemon, no, I‘m not driven by getting attention, but perhaps by leaving no open ends and moving our discussion in a more communicative direction, which seemed to be futile after what I wrote above. But I want to thank You again for pointing this out to me, as I said before it was not my intention to be offensive to anyone.

Joshu Kel'Machan

I wouldn't know what this "Mr. Demon" is saying, but there is obviously a reason for that. Anyway, I agree with you, Joshu. I hesitated to respond because of how sensitive I am to these issues, and we could have an entirely separate discussion about autism and our friends and family who are neurodivergent and the challenges they face every day. It isn't unlike what queer people go through. In fact, there are plenty of LGBTQ+ people on the spectrum! I just see transphobia coming from people like Daniel. It's wrong and cannot be excused.

AlaricLives87

...nah it's okay Joshu, keep it up. If for some reason you think Ts are mental (just like the many people who are more than willing to take offensive & already THINK you are), then who am I to help you try to NOT look that way? It's so obvious that's want you want: attention by any means, am I right? (ofc I am, been at this discussion longer than you think 😮‍💨) So it's okay Netari, let them be. They don't want to take themselves seriously, why should we? I, for one, am Tapping Out on this today (and probably just blocking more later). Good Day All 🙏🏾

Daemon Blitzkrieg

Time for Keith to show us why basitins have survived so long despite appearing smaller and weaker as he pushes Nat off himself to use the restroom.

Netari Icefyng

You only say that because your cornered now.... but when you had the opportunity you decided to double down, No this is a dishonest apology and I will not accept it..

Netari Icefyng

Respect goes two ways and people like you do not show any respect back. They wish harm on anyone who disagrees with them as if the very words spoken are missiles loaded with HE warheads, instead of showing respect they disrespect themselves the groups they speak for and the people they are responding to. No no more of this... you ask for peace and yet call for war... You ask for acceptance but push full disallowance. You have all gone waaay beyond backwards for respect you've gone straight from 0 to -100. NO STOP.

Netari Icefyng

Fuck that, you can't claim to to be neurodivergent as an excuse for being a shitty person. My autism has never caused me to seig heil or say that minorities don't have the right to live. And seeing people here essentially using actual neurodivergent people as effectively human shields to hide behind is disgusting, to be frank.

Dan Vaelling

Well, imho both conditions are driven by our genes. I‘m not judging about disorders, this will lead into a mine field. I found some very rude coments against Daniel and wanted to point out that respect has to go with all discutants. If my coment is misunderstandable in a way You get it, I will delete it in short as that is far from what I wanted to express and I apologize to everyone I might have offended.

Joshu Kel'Machan

Joshu... this is Quite the hole you're digging atm... Are we Really going to compare a Mental Development Disorder like Asperger to the Sexuality/Mentality of Transgender?? And Ts wanna be left alone? So do the rest of us, that's what you seem to not be getting. ...you know what? No tangent this time, I'm gonna say it straight up: UNLESS You are 100% stating, For Fact, that Transgenderism is a Mental Disorder... EVERYTHING you just said, was completely Disingenuous Joshu & deserves reticule. And it's sad to see, as I thought you had more Respect & Common Sense than the rest of them. :/

Daemon Blitzkrieg

Mr. Daemon, sorry, Your answer appeared much later as even Netaris below Yours. Yes this is no game and in rl the situation usually swaps against the minority. And who actually is the minority may just depend on where You are or when … That’s why I‘m asking for respect. Yes, our social surroundings have great impact on our personalities, may it be to the good or bad. But we can overule this impact, if we feel we have too … And for me, there is no difference between being trans, having Asperger, having red hair or liking korriander. All conditions are driven by the expressions of our genes. We have to live with them hoping for the acceptance of our cohumans. Hopefully I did get You right, I‘m no native speaker…

Joshu Kel'Machan

Good on you to admit that physical appearance is the only thing that matters to you when it comes to other people, their thoughts, identity, feelings, and emotions are completely relevant, got it.

Dan Vaelling

This happens almost every sketch with Natani, personally if i had the same thoguhts and stuff i did now this would make me as the artist decide that "Due to conflict caused by this character I will no longer do sketches of this character" But I am not the artist so I can only have my personal opinion, but this character causes so many problems.... I also would have never changed the bio, but again that's me and I'm not Tom so.

Netari Icefyng

I'm sorry but what does that have anything to do with Nat Not wearing her magic bandages of void space?

Netari Icefyng

Keith may enjoy it by now.

Netari Icefyng

Here I was just asking for the same respect for Daniel that is asked for queer persons in belows discussions. But my writing was misunderstandable as Daemon pointed out. So I edited it.

Joshu Kel'Machan

In the real world maybe in this world who knows.

Netari Icefyng

I know, which I appreciate, and it bears repeating that one or two did become more open-minded in the past, which led to some excellent discussions and, ultimately, the kind of understanding others here lack (or, more often than not, don't care about). I'm sure you won't be surprised to learn, though, that one of those people who did understand was, in turn, criticized for it. From what I can tell, you catch some strays from conversations I cannot see, but continue handling it as best you can.

AlaricLives87

That's disrespectul.. if your talking about nat taking on Keith's surname upon marriage. which i don't think you are so pardon me for misunderstanding.

Netari Icefyng

I‘m not a side, I‘m Joshu. Your other coment, dear Netari, I choose to ignore. It‘s a heated discussion and such personal attacks will lead to nowhere.

Joshu Kel'Machan

A nice way to be trapped

Byron S.

You are no optimist you are a pusher of genocide of reality. The side you are on likes to claim genocide racism and all the rest when in reality it is the side you are on that is keeping it alive.

Netari Icefyng

Harsh reactions? yeah says the side who wishes harm on the other just for speaking their mind. the side who wishes harm on people for making their own decisions counter to others.(US election 2025 for example.) Gender is a made up term so that people can PRETEND to be whatever they want and completely avoid reality and accountability....

Netari Icefyng

The old image https://imgur.com/DWYCiVN says Zen's personality overpowered her own, maybe now that the soul link is severed and she has joined with her other half her actual personality might take over now.

Netari Icefyng

The link was severed in the battle with Clovis Natani has joined with her other half so it remains to be seen if she will accept her other half or not.

Netari Icefyng

Yes, I also don’t expect this in such heated discussions, but perhaps one or another may think things a little bit more open minded. Im no saint, I‘m a hopeless optimist, You see. 😉

Joshu Kel'Machan

Er Joshu, imma have to stop you right there. What you described in your Apple bit was differences in Skin Color, Pigmentation. Which would be on the same levels as Artic/Forest Foxes & Eastern/Western Basitan, which ofc has nothing to with Gender(the social construct) nor Sex(an immutable gene). On the Human level, that's the same as Black/White/Latin/Asian/etc.; all of us have different levels of Melanin & are treated differently as such (which is called Racism). However our REAL differences are where we were born & raised; literally still Human(an Apple) regardless of the outside influences. And unlike Sex (Male/Female), Skin Color can vary WILDLY again depending on environment, same as Gender Roles; but that can never change the person inside. The Trans push tries to claim both an Immutable and a Variation are one and the same (they are not), while also denying true freedom of expression by reinforcing Roles; aka a Man is slender and/or dresses in Feminine clothing? MUST BE A WOMAN!! A Woman is muscular and/or dresses in baggy clothes? MUST BE A MAN!! Do you at least hear how disingenuous that sounds & harmful it is to those who simply reject their Gender Roles and just wanna do them? This is why many, MANY are opposed to this and every other Trans change/push in media right now. It's not healthy + damaging to all parties involved. Like, y'all wanna say "it ain't that deep" or w/e everytime you receive push back on this spreading issue, but at the same time keep making it so. This Is Not A Game. If you wanna treat the Wolf as Fictional, keep it that way. However, if ya wanna keep forcing our crazy bs on it + treat it as real, then expect others to do the same. And unfortunately this is incredibly real, for a lot of people being told either they suck and must change to fit in, or they are "Phobic" for not agreeing with this mentality. This Is Not A Game. Nor Is This Fun To Be Forced To Play At All. :/

Daemon Blitzkrieg

Torial said on the forums it's representation to some people: Well then. WHERE IS MY CHILD CANCER SURVIVOR REPRESENTATION!? it's only fair. This thing with Nat is getting annoying tom needs to settle it once and for all it's causing way too many problems. https://imgur.com/DWYCiVN

Netari Icefyng

https://imgur.com/DWYCiVN Zen's mind says she's a guy Her body say she's a girl...

Netari Icefyng

Well Keith did say she sounded more confident after she woke up after the battle.

Netari Icefyng

typically only happens one way.

Netari Icefyng

*Girlfriend

Netari Icefyng

And then Keith's bladder decides to "say" something.

Kaelgren

Eh, while yes argument destroyed Drazgon, 1 retaliation reply vs the 30+ that roams here daily still bends the argument in your favor. Besides, can't always expect Everyone to keep a calm head in these types of situations...

Daemon Blitzkrieg

I don’t believe most of these people will change their minds, Joshu. I feel like a broken record having to repeat myself wishing they’d prove me wrong, but they won’t. I’m all personal here, buddy. If it wasn’t about a trans character, and by extension, trans fans and people, it would be about a gay character, and by extension, gay fans and people et cetera (and people in the fandom used to go off about the latter, and may still do. They’re around).

AlaricLives87

Well, thank you very much, Netari, for destroying my argument

Drazgon

Phobia is not just fear, it also means aversion and hate, both of which apply, but of course we've already established you don't know the meaning of words.

Dan Vaelling

The fierce discussion here based on a fictional character is imho a strong signal, that our societies have some work to do to find an agreement not overdoing in the one or other direction in rl. But please let us all keep in mind: harsh reactions won‘t convince anyone and also won‘t strengthen any arguments …

Joshu Kel'Machan

Comparing humans and apples 😉 Apples can be red, green, red and green, yellow … The color is an aspect of an apple. Humans can be female, male or somewere in between, depending on hormons (sex), and as concious beings they can identify as female, male, fluid … (gender). Also the hormons … Gender and sex are aspects of humans. Imho the gender is, what should be respected when interacting with any person, despite of an eventually different sex. But this is everyones own decission to handle to his liking and taking the consequences for example as being seen as rude. Comparing apples with other Fruits won‘t help here.

Joshu Kel'Machan

😂

Timmainsson

Nat is fairly heavy. And he cannot move without waking her up, which he doesn't want to do until the bladder situation gets critical.

eddi_TBH

And by the way, Joshu Kel'Machan, even though multiple people might see the same apple and draw different experiences from it, they still see it as an apple. Somebody calling it an orange or a peach does not make it no longer an apple.

Riley Welker

Ah, the ad hominem attacks when logic completely fails. Classic.

Riley Welker

https://imgur.com/DWYCiVN pretty interesting. And the last ref sheet has some mixed messages too. And then we have "I liked dressing like that, thing" which, goes well with the stance of the tribe they grew up in. Anyways the scent and plumbing are only important defining characteristics for relationships.

Daniel Benko

You don't want to say that to the 99% who have been very accepting so far

Daniel Benko

Man, lucky guy. And Keith too!

Rinzydings

You're a kook.

AlaricLives87

https://imgur.com/a/twokinds-natani-is-explicitly-trans-Fmn5L7Y

Everlight ⨺⃝

Transphobic? Really? Think about it logically what you said. If they are minority, then what is there to fear. If you think im scared then your wrong. How does it hurt to set basic standards? How is someone to know what someone is thinking or feeling before you talk to them? Every minority has been accepted already in society if they are still around.

Daniel Benko

Well Netari, basitins since they live longer that is a obvious one. The other would be the regular heat cycles and of course the mass that can smother even a basitin. In this case not the toughest looking one which makes it more so. And I assume the bandages arnt being worn because the situation is not what some insist to be, one of many examples in the trends.

Daniel Benko

Hi, Everlight!

AlaricLives87

His.

Everlight ⨺⃝

Boyfriend.

Everlight ⨺⃝

Congratulations, Every trans person that doesn't adhere to your arbitrary standards are either dead or shoved back deep int the closet. Are you happy now, or will you do what people like you always do and shrink the circle, find a new definition, a new target to attack? Who will it be next, the gays that don't "act normal", or the black people who're "too uppity", or the women who "don't know their place"?

Dan Vaelling

You're not a good person, Daniel Benko. Half of everything you've said throughout this (the parts I could make sense of) gives the game away. I'm sure more than one person here who shares your anti-transgender views wishes you'd shut up because you're making it harder for them. Declaring someone cannot decide how others view them until they look the part is as transphobic as it gets. Thank you for showing everyone how terrible you are.

AlaricLives87

We call you evil because you don't think some people deserve human rights. We call you evil because you're trying to erase and eradicate minorities you don't approve of. We call you evil because you're pushing and propagating an alt-right narrative. We call you evil because the end goal of your side is nothing short of genocide.

Dan Vaelling

It's you guys that are forcing this shit on us. Not the other way around. I didn't have a problem until you guys started forcing your opinions and beliefs on us and called us evil for not thinking the same way.

Torahi Bjarun

*Her

Netari Icefyng

The Downside to having A Wolf Girlfriend as a Basatin... Why is not wearing the magic bandages???

Netari Icefyng

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HRcDhj12bZw

Dan Vaelling

Just regular ol' Willow, from the Online Following sketch, my first Tomsketch :)

Dan Vaelling

I’m not going to stop so long as it keeps happening. What you call harassment, I personally see as the right thing to do. Transphobia has no place in this fandom

AlaricLives87

I believe it’s just Willow.

AlaricLives87

This comment section reminds me of my childhood. Good lord. If yall are adults then we are so cooked. I hope that other comment sections are not this dim. The world doesn't roll around anyone's private wishes but instead by immutable physical properties. If you don't like that to bad, and until a person looks the part they don't get to decide how others view them. - love, from Canada (not everyone up here is cooked)

Daniel Benko

Experiences are experiences which come and go and change with time. It's not the material and physical world. They are yours to enjoy for yourself and not to impose on anyone else.

Daniel Benko

real off topic, but is your avatar a Bastian Willow, Dan?

Your name

Phobias are literally defined as a fear not because you base reality on what things looks like. If instead natani walks like duck, quacks like a duck, then it's a duck, no matter what is claimed by anyone. If you want to be defined as something else then you have to look the part first or be between what you want to be and what you currently are. Sorry but this is fact, in natanis case this can be tested on the battlefield by joining an army of male wolf soldiers. The result will be getting obliterated, 100%. This post is filled with immature children who are trying to feel special and I won't respond any more. The day harasment and violemce turned subjective is the day you voted away your adulthood and entered the age of treason to civilizational progress and the hard work of your ancestors. Things cant function without a physical basis for evrything. Granted this corner of the furry Fandom is the closest to sanity we have and that's on top of the realistic designs.

Daniel Benko

Nat can learn to accept his femininity and still identify as a guy.

Your name

Also, Crimson Dragon, They/Them is usually reserved for non-binary or gender fluid people, of which Nat is neither.

Your name

They and Them is basically the same word…how’d I not notice that till now?

Your name

Exactly correct bill derr, it was forced; a forced ideology that was a side effect of the spell that saved Natani's life. And now she has to live with it forever (maybe, idk there's obv still more story to go). Once Nat learns to love herself as is and not actively hate her body/situation, I'm sure things will get better. Its honestly one of the best qualities of Keith, breaking down Natani's barriers to be themselves.

Daemon Blitzkrieg

Eh to me its always been on the edge, its not like Natani chose to identify as male, the whole soul swap thing forced the issue.

bill derr

I prefer to use "E" myself. "They" makes em sound like E's more than one person.

Aaron Peterson

These responses continue to be as incoherent as they are unhinged. It’s very weird

AlaricLives87

Right on. Yes it appears that everyone has caught the feminization virus and it's killing our civilization and progress. When men and women are pitted against each other like this which effectively renders them different species we have zero reason to cooperate. We should be putting all reasources into sving problems and not making them. Things like expansion into space and figuring out new legitimate low cost high yeild energy sources or genetic engineering etc. But instead we have naive children who never grew up making problems of things that wernt while not having the conciousness to see that somethings are their fault. Finally, they expect that internal feelings be taken as reality, as if by magic and of you say that us not possible or in their right do so before physical evidence for said feelings, that you are anti them. They basically are trying to tell you who you like and don't and who your afraid of as well. This being the child crowd that labels people as "phobes". And that's not how that works. See theres a reason why the left is always unhappier than the right and its becuase the world leftists want is impossible. But I'm supposed to be convinced of their supiority? Nope, even as a actual progressive.

Daniel Benko

I don't know how to explain to you that you should care about other people. Compassion and empathy seems to be entirely alien to you. Our disagreement is not merely political, but a fundamental divide on what it means to live in a society.

Dan Vaelling

…..You’re weird.

AlaricLives87

Well it's because everyone has been weakened to care about what someone else feels on the inside prioritized over what they physically are or physically appearing as. The fact is that the trans moment has dug their own grave when they came for the tomboys and femboys to destroy them. But I'm not going to hold it against the ones that are genuine. In reality your not trans if you didn't transition yet and only a petulant child will throw a fit about being called a certain pronoun before they actually earned it. And even then, a straight person can literally smell out the genetic males and females with ends any romantic relationship right there.

Daniel Benko

Your right it has no point glad you realizing it. It'd not anyone's responsibility to "correct" anyone's perceptions. Amd also no one else seems to have an issue with my reasoning and logic anywhere else so perhaps it's true that the current left is toxic to ones health and why people are fed up broadly with them.

Daniel Benko

It appears as if.... idk.... maybe we're woah! We're right? Natani's character is obviously heavily trans coded (in fact he IS trans, the universe just doesnt have a word for it. But OF COURSE because of that it cant be said out-right, and so everyone disregards it. That is transphobia btw.)

Gryffin

Using "they" when a person's preferences have already been made clear is still misgendering. And Natani's preferences have been made *abundantly* clear.

Dan Vaelling

Yeah, but it’s also he/him

AlaricLives87

First off, Keith doesn't seem to mind being trapped. Second, everyone's talking about Natani's pronouns, when "they" completely sidesteps the whole issue.

Crimson Dragon

But some people will ignore his trans experiences and call him a tomboy while disregarding his pronouns but god forbid they get called out for that because that’s harassment 🙄

AlaricLives87

Keith: “aarrghhh! Doggie drool!”

Muddypaws

Natanis mind says "I am guy", his body says "I am a girl".

J. Martin Laursen

Execept the drool in his ear.

J. Martin Laursen

Better get him a snorkel

AlaricLives87

What name change? There's never been any talk of Natani changing his name.

Dan Vaelling

Damn

Swendle

Or Nat's luck X)

AlaricLives87

Have anyone seen a person 'correcting' others with "*she" replies? Or does it happen only other way around? As if all bullies appear to be on the same front.

Drazgon

So you're not just a massive transphobe, you're completely mental as well. Now, would you kindly get the fuck out of here? You and your bullshit doesn't belong and aren't welcome in this community. This isn't a nazi bar.

Dan Vaelling

No... Just socks...

JasonAW3

I totally agree with that sentiment. Feelings do not determine reality. Truth doesn't care about opinion. What is and what is not is not changed by what one thinks.

Riley Welker

Sorry you feel the need to delete Art, but damn, they went full tilt this time around...; can't blame ya. :/ Respect to the Madness & I hope you have a better day ~

Daemon Blitzkrieg

Just so everyone is clear here. No one has an obligation to care what anyone calls themselves or thinks of themselves or how things feel like. Anyone who does so is being cordial. I for one don't care about feelings but instead about results, deeds, utility and sensory inputs. If I see all the markers of something then that something is what I sense it as, period and that is the absolute reality. I am not burdened by feelings only by facts and my personal physical limits. As a outsider due to my aspergers I have acess to a unbiased birds eye view of things the humans do on this planet. I will not pull punches on what the calculations suggest the future will be like.

Daniel Benko

If it were only nibbling … 😁

Joshu Kel'Machan

Taking weighted blankets to the extreme. Cute!

Ordithus

It's *nibbling*!🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

wjd1206

Natani and Keith is my favourite shy couple. They are so different in public that everyone has no idea that they are typical in private and ever more so. Having zens soul teaching nat a few things made things more complex. Nat wont be needing that name change anymore thats for sure

Daniel Benko

I want Keith’s luck!

Muddypaws

The downside is Natani drools. Keith may drown.

eddi_TBH

There is no bigotry of any kind. Just delusional children thinking they can ignore their own definitions which were true by the way when you could remember them. A female is not opposite to dude but opposite to male. And if your physically one female and one male then a relationship is straight, period. Straightness is hardware based. Now you guys also forget the medieval cultures of the story and how much a rough environment manipulates people to think things they need to do to survive and then internalize it as fact. The middle ages would be shitty enough to compel anyone to do such so it isnt conclusive yet. Also I saw a return to nats previous mental perception, which was tomboy at best, when the link was destroyed. So we will see more changes toward that. And only then we'll know becuade a person can be trans for a time and then change yet again in case of cultural trauma being removed once more or for their first time. At least I'm an adult with experience. And yes if a human transwoman sat next to me I would immediately be able sense the genetic and biological situation. I wouldn't even need to see to do that. Even modern technology is more primitive then you'd think, but no tech can replace senses that arise at the molecular level.

Daniel Benko

Bullshit detected

Daniel Benko

Reality and it hurts and i fixed it. No phobia of any kind and no propaganda of any kind. I'm am a biologist and genetics and I know better when reason has escaped people and where facts speak. Also I write this on my phone. Some errors are expected. No one can claim to be progressive if they don't also know the differences between sex and gender. Sorry natani is a tomboy amd kieth a femboy, that fact and hardware is what makes a relationship different from another. And it's the truth that gender is what you call yourself, identify as, and try to sell people on. Sex on the other hand is immutable. If you have natural curves, bust, shape, a female smell, and female textured hair, and can go into heat then you are female period. It doesn't matter how you look because on closer inspection it is obvious. But it didn't mean that such a person needs to be bullied but neither should they be treated as any more special than anyone else. And yes ones environment does control how one sees their reality, but perception is not reality again. I am a true progressive that values equality and above else level headed reason.

Daniel Benko

Okay, so I'm going to delete this comment in an few hours or so, but before I do, I just want to say that I'm extremely disappointed in those who feel the need to turn every comment about a freaking fictional wolf into an unpleasant flame war because they're unable to agree to disaggree. I'm especially upset at those who actually say/believe that they cause contention and label others without even once asking why they believe what they believe is all for some noble cause. Trolling or harassing someone til they change their mind on something has never been productive to either a cause or society as a whole. You know damn well that the only way to change minds is to treat others respectfully. Otherwise, you not only shove people away, but you cement their opposing viewpoint.

ArtAnimationFan

Both looks so cute 😍 I

Mr great ape

One by one, everyone will just block those people like I and many others have, until they're just alone and can only bully each other. XD

AetherSprite224

*checks watch* When?

RivCA

TWO butts!

RivCA

Why does Keith voice the opinion that said situation is undesirable? I doubt he would find much consensus.

TheLoreMaker

Actually, one thing that escaped me amidst the drama was the fact that Keith was without his signature heart boxers. Things have escalated in their relationship! Also *points* butt!

AlaricLives87

This is cute coming from me, but it really doesn't have to get ugly

AlaricLives87

Whenever Nat has his girls out, things get ugly in the comments….

Your name

As expected, unfortunately, because you rarely find reason and understanding when some wish for neither.

AlaricLives87

Gender =/= Sex. You can have a penis but still mentally identify as a lady. Is it what God would have wanted? No, but from what I know of him, if he had a genuine issue with it, he would have done gone and smite us long ago for practicing it.

Your name

I'm sure Alaric always knew that about him too X)

AlaricLives87

Like some Spanish scientist said, Natani is equipped with some nice ballistics.

K_D Lawrence

Keith was bottom the minute they started sleeping together

Your name

tf came out of Daniel’s mouth there

Your name

don’t tell me bastians wear pajamas to bed…

Your name

This went south fast

Your name

Gray rock is best rock. 20 years flame wars still going strong.

K_D Lawrence

You have nothing to say after all that bluster except to call people narcissists and play victim? Whatever makes you feel better, sweetie. And yes, I will keep calling out transphobia at every turn.

AlaricLives87

Trapped between a bed and two soft places.

Holy Zen!

So you admit that you're going to continue harassing people at every instance you can while acting smug and self righteous about it. You people really are complete narcissists.

Shmi Skyrunner

And there's the textbook transphobic wall of barely understandable text. It's clear you don't actually understand any of the words you're saying, as most of them are used incorrectly. You just parrot what your hatespeech propagandists of choice spew out. You and your hateful bigotry has no place in this community.

Dan Vaelling

Well, he maybe trapped, but maybe he doesn't really mind too much?

JasonAW3

Keith; "Oh no... I'm in danger... Hehe hehe heh..."

JasonAW3

and thats a bad thing?

Geo Wolf

Keith's booty X)

AlaricLives87

Also, Everlight, I appreciate everything you're doing. Thank you <3

AlaricLives87

You mad? Good. Every time people get pissy whenever they get called out for anti-trans behavior, it means someone is doing something right, and it will keep going FOR EVERY. SINGLE. FUCKING. COMMENT that's spent using the incorrect pronouns or blatantly disregarding trans representation. And you know something? Normal people would stop and wonder why they get called out all the time like this. A more open-minded individual might ask, listen, and perhaps come to understand that while they never viewed themselves as transphobes, they were engaging in behavior that sends the wrong message and makes others feel less welcomed. Perspective and self-awareness can prevail, and everyone would be all the better. It's happened here before. But that isn't how it goes most of the time, unfortunately. In my experiences dealing with the likes of you, it almost always comes down to transphobia. That's it, cupcake. It's just about that. Throughout these past arguments, God was eventually invoked, beliefs of intolerance regurgitated, and Trans and Queer people were called crazy deviants. Your talking points are quite similar to those of others I've dealt with, and as someone who experienced homophobia for most of his life, it's all too familiar. Speaking of which, once upon a time, people acted similarly, claiming the character Alaric wasn't gay and that he was just being "brotherly" towards Keith. There was some blatant homophobia involved, if not implied, and it was fairly recent, still going on when I first joined the fandom, and the F-bomb was dropped on me as it became more apparent to others that I was gay. Luckily, I found friendship and enough support to feel welcome here despite that. As Everlight pointed out, trans people exist, they are amongst this fandom, and a character like Natani is essential for their representation. Deal with it. He/Him.

AlaricLives87

Gender is not sex. Gender is what the indivigual believes they are and do and sometimes imitate. While sex is the inescapable biological reality, on par with what a species is. Just becuase someone like nat dresses a certain way or had procedures done still can't hide their scent that their biology gives off as seen in the story. Kieth on the other hand is sort of femboyish and male, of course. They both compliment each other. Your culture and environment has a strong impact on what reality your coarced to identify as to the piont of not being aware if it yourself (Note: note all of the impact). Female and women are different just like guys and males are. Natani can portray being a guy while being female, kieth can portray as girly but be male. They balance. Gayness is defines by hardware not software. Therefore this is a straight couple with inverted roles. If I was a guy stuck in a world were I would be a second class citizen then I would cross dress and get alterations if availible to survive. This is uncertsin in this story as its not a star trek utopia. But in this world they are in premodern times and you cant be sure. And I've seen nothing to indicate this being on that scale any more then a minor adaptive processes. Youngtani was still plenty feminine, and later developed into tomboy. Tomboys are not lesbians or trans. This is a tomboy femboy couple and a pretty one at that. In addition, the reality also dictates that if one goes into heat and the other can't AND has none of the hardware for that process, then there's nothing special going on here. In short, if you can biologically have kids on your own without help you are definitely straight. If sterile then you can be anyone else. Only true females go into heat or cycles. To say a man can do that will get you laughed out the door.

Daniel Benko

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN MEEEEEE

Aucere

Judging from his expression he most definitely DID have plans for the day.

starkiller1286

(Five Hours Later) Natani: (snores) Keith: Help me lord!

SCD

That morning breath though 😵‍💫

Av8R

this is hilarious and i love how natani just lays ontop of poor keith hopefully someone helps keith with getting natani off him

silver dragonia

I wouldn't even feel the need to say any of this if you people weren't in EVERY. SINGLE. FUCKING. COMMENT harassing people with your rhetoric. If you just left people alone and let them enjoy themselves, they'd leave you alone. But you just can't help yourselves.

Shmi Skyrunner

You don't get to tell others to ignore what their eyes tell them and expect them to listen. Again, you state your world view as absolute fact and anyone that doesn't share it is the enemy. Therefore, the world and reality is your enemy. Probably why you latch so hard onto fictional characters to justify your own existence.

Shmi Skyrunner

It's not a "view". Trans people exist. You don't get to be told who someone is and decide not to listen. Nat is a guy. It had nothing to do with the soul link.

Everlight ⨺⃝

Trapped... Married... same thing.

Wingmander

Not everyone shares your view on gender. In fact, MOST people don't. Most people also have the ability to accept your beliefs even if they don't see them as true. The difference is that YOU cannot. You're the problem here, cause your narcissism keeps you from seeing or accepting any world view besides your own.

Shmi Skyrunner

No. What's pathetic is continuing to misgender people. Fictional or otherwise

Everlight ⨺⃝

I think you mean a bootytrap. Either way he should roll over (if possible) and, enjoy the situation.

Michael Marcoccio

You should be aware of Natani not only wispering but also gnawing … but hey, that‘s the price to pay 😁

Joshu Kel'Machan

And Keith is now crushed under six feet of wolf. Hope he didn't have any plans for today. ...Unless this WAS his plan.

Rook Prime

Just a couple of sexy dorks

Jem

The same like 3 people go onto every Natani post, troll through every single comment looking for someone that refers to them as a girl, to "correct" them. Everyone else just has fun and posts comments like a normal person, but you 3 just HAVE to start arguments about a fictional character because to NOT do so invalidates your own existence. It's pathetic.

Shmi Skyrunner

Interesting you take being corrected ad an attack

Everlight ⨺⃝

It's always interesting seeing who attacks who in these pointless situations... also lol imgur

Daemon Blitzkrieg

I cannot respect an opinion that perpetrates anti-trans rhetoric, especially when the facts, to the contrary, prove Natani is transmasc and goes by he/him. You might not consider yourself transphobic, but you are still wrong.

AlaricLives87

https://imgur.com/a/twokinds-natani-is-explicitly-trans-Fmn5L7Y

Everlight ⨺⃝

Good job as always, Tom. This is great. 👍

Colin Algire

And we've made a loop...,iam surd we have better things to do...

Isaiah James

Yes you did, it was confirmed that what happened to Nat's soul had no impact on his identity, he was trans before, and he is trans after. where the confusion comes in is that Zen thought that it was because of Nat's soul being shattered and the mind link formed, and that belief got carried over through the link so Nat ended up believing that as well. Once the link got severed he realized (thanks to Youngtani) that Nat's masculine feelings and male identity all came from himself all along. Source: https://imgur.com/a/twokinds-natani-is-explicitly-trans-Fmn5L7Y "Natani has the mind of a guy and that's how he sees himself. He doesn't know the first thing about women or what they're like and thus doesn't relate to them at all." -Tom

Dan Vaelling

I respect your opinion, but based on my interpretations of events and character development, I have my own interpretations that deviate from your outlook. I’m hoping that you’ll be able to understand and accept that.

ArtAnimationFan

Dang keith and natani are the best couple of the lore ever

Danzord Zord

I don't see it open to much interpretation, even in fictional universes, alot of logic still applies,but your right, I've entertained this foolishness for too long, follishness on both sides...,iam guilty of it, I will not deny...

Isaiah James

Cool. That's what your god says. Mine says otherwise. And again, common sense argument doesn't work when science recognizes the difference between genetypical sex, phenotypic sex, and gender.

Everlight ⨺⃝

Yes, you did misread, and are misgendering. I would suggest rereading the comic and please use the correct pronouns. Natani is transmasc

AlaricLives87

In real life, God is real, I dont care if it's a fictional universe or nor, or what aspects it has wither it's magic or alchemy or whatever, even in fictional universes, they still have that same common sense, Natani as a character was born female but thinks her self male,that osemt make her a male just because there's magic or no gods in that universe, because we know irl, you can't be something you are not...,same logic applies, natani can't be a male when she knows she is not and is a female, even in the comic, magic that could permanently change someone's gender, does not commit the fact that the person,let's say natani, is female because she was born a female

Isaiah James

Absolutely adorable. This deserves a color rendition.

Kurtis Ryan

For now... 🙃

Daemon Blitzkrieg

One of the few rare times to be 1000% envious of Keith... I want Nat to whisper in my ear while they sleep!! 😰 (minus the drool 😂)

Daemon Blitzkrieg

I'd be saying the same thing that I have said, and id be plain and simple about as i have right now,you can't identify as whatever the hell you want, you are either male or female, just because you have gender dysphoria,dosemt change who you actually are,if that's considered rude,they can walk off for all I care, you can identify as whatever the hell you want, but that dosent mean people have to ignore common sense and/or their belifs, just to comply with that

Isaiah James

Isaiah, I highly respect your right to freely express your opinions, but trust me, it ain’t worth it to argue with others over this case. It would be nice if everyone could just agree to disagree, but some people are just too overly defensive over a fictional wolf character. A fictional wolf character whose development, history, and characteristics are open to interpretation to viewers in multiple ways. People like you and me can have our own viewpoints while simultaneously allowing others to as well, but some people don’t tolerate viewpoints if it doesn’t align with theirs. It’s best just to ignore them for our sakes and theirs.

ArtAnimationFan

Hm, Isaiah, everybody can have his own opinion but if You would act according to Your writing above in front of a trans person in real life this would be more than rude. Personaly I would find it extremly repulsive. The world is not as simple as some might think …

Joshu Kel'Machan

You cite a god with no power here or in twokinds and common sense when science disagrees with you here and magic disagrees with you in the comic.

Everlight ⨺⃝

Yes. You did. Nat is a guy. Been confirmed in multiple pics and by tom himself

Everlight ⨺⃝

Not just my own opinion, God's, and common sense...,yiu can identify as whatever you want, dosemt make it true, you,Tom, whomever can say what ever you want, but it dosemt ignore the fact that it's just not true, Natani has always been a women, and no physical or mental thought process or change will change who she is,who she was born as,that's common sense,and that's not being a snowflake,your a snow flake for your ignorant comment, "didnt ask, don't care"

Isaiah James

Why? Did I misread the part where it was said that natani only behaved like a boy due to the culture she grew up in AND if not predominantly because of the link with her brother? So now that both the link and she's not in the home culture she's female now.

Daniel Benko

Imagine being told who someone is by their literal creator and deciding to disregard it for your own opinion. Deeply entitled and snowflakey

Everlight ⨺⃝

*his... tits or no, nat is a guy

Everlight ⨺⃝

ArtAnimationFan

Is it transphobic if it's the truth? I can identify as whatever the hell I want aparently, I can identify as a women, Black, a proud European, but does that make it true? No, iam and always will be a white male who lives in and is a patriotic American, just as natani always has and will be a women, I don't care what she "thinks he self as" I wnat to know what she actually is, and that is, a women

Isaiah James

Sure bud....,whatever you say...,don't care either....,snowflake

Isaiah James

aww, adorable boys <3

AnArchie

Furries being transphobic will always be a weird sight huh

Gryffin

"It's okay to have the tail base uncovered if it's the ambassador couple, right?😳" —Member of the Basitin Censorship Bureau

J. N. Squire

Correct. Also, still *him

AlaricLives87

The BUTT of a perfect lovely being NAKED!!!

Jonathan

Don't care, didn't ask, nat is a guy and he's gonna continue being called one. Hell now that nora is awake, could even get it changed permanently.

Everlight ⨺⃝

wouldn't it be him?

Magra215

*Him

AlaricLives87

Is this what they call a boobytrap? (Keefbutt <3)

Dan Vaelling

Let's be fair, he won't be able to move her even if he tried, but I can imagine a lot of worse things to be under.

Magra215

A women who thinks her self as a guy, she was born a women...and she will always be a women, just as I will always be a man, because I was born a man, just because you think yourself differently from your biological sex doent mean you ar that, it's like calling a duck a chicken because it thinks it's self to be more a chicken than a duck, or vice versa

Isaiah James

Not an opinion, statement of fact from the author. Nat is a guy

Everlight ⨺⃝

Natani's a guy, so it's he.

Dan Vaelling

Is this from the 'main' continuity or the one where Keith just met Natani's parents?

Welsh Rat

Nat has the athletic behind that comes with being a hunk. Keith has the Fembositin figure to compliment him ❤️

AlaricLives87

PEAK relationship right here, they will forever be Best Couple!.

bowman502

What Everlight said. He/Him!

AlaricLives87

And this is where we can pinpoint the exact moment where our two gay bois realized who was the top and who was the bottom X)

AlaricLives87

Remember Natani, that's not a chew toy

Customaera

Lucky bastard...

Noxitious

Awkward...

Benjamin Steele

That's your opinion,I have mine

Isaiah James

It’s a rough life, but someone’s got to do it.

Jeff

Keith, an hour later: "You know, this is oddly relaxing!"

Anonymous1988

this is the opposite of a problem

Terra The Wizard

Wolf boi

Everlight ⨺⃝

*He

Everlight ⨺⃝

Lucky boi 😏

Samuel Ghirardelli

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aphelius

I could definitely think of worse positions! If I were Kieth, though, I would have preferred to be pinned facing Natani (so many enjoyable possibilities that way!).

wjd1206

was going to do a heart emoji but it broked

Eclipse(Adrakist)

He's so lucky.

Golden_Pawz

Keith booty, a truly rare sight to behold

Avatardragon

She grabs him and hugs him like a teddy bear...to both their great embarrassment when she wakes up

Spillthefire6

Keith Booty... 👀 (Definitely not as Big as Natani's though! XD)

BigGreenWolfe

Hey, you didn't have anything better to do, did you?

Stephen Gilberg

Trapped by a wolf girl,ar atleast Keith's probably not going to complain

Isaiah James

Awww poor Keith 🥺... but also lucky Keith 😳

Riley Gundersen

I see this as an absolute win

Elvenhunter84

Aww, this is so adorable and I think you'll be pretty comfortable, Keith lol :)

RemyHindle

A fate better than life

Johndoe11380

The drool on his head annoys Keith greatly...but the soft feminine mounds of flesh on his back keep him locked in

Spillthefire6

Heaven

BowlerEXRS