Unexamined Biases
Added 2020-08-06 02:36:22 +0000 UTCWarning. This article deals with matters of anatomy. If that bothers you stop reading now. Also some of the things discussed in this article have occurred more on Deviant Art or Fur Affinity than on Patreon.
Over the last couple of days I've encountered a couple of things that given reason to pause and reflect upon how myself and others might view certain subjects.
It started when I was doing research for the commission Not Again. In the picture there's an anthropomorphic female unicorn trying to put on a t-shirt with somewhat humorous results. Now folds and the drapery of clothing can go a long ways toward creating a believable piece of art. So I went to my reference library looking for images of women putting on t-shirts. Couldn't find any. Lots of images of women taking off t-shirts but those don't have the same folds, drapery or sense of movement.
So I went online and did some web searches, which I've gotten rather proficient in. So I started searching. Note. One thing do when image searching is go into tools on Google and look for only Large images. This detail might've skewed my results.
Google. Search for women putting on t-shirts.
Results. Women taking off t-shirts or slogans women have put/printed on t-shirts.
I tried several variations of the initial query with no luck. Finally I did a different search. People putting on t-shirts. I finally got results. All of them were of men and boys putting t-shirts. In frustration I grabbed a couple images of guys and boys putting on the t-shirts.
However I had to make adjustments because of female anatomy because of undergarments like a bras. These make the clothing interact differently with them. As I was making adjustments and thinking about all the images I'd found of women taking off t-shirts, and wishing I could've found a decent image of a woman putting on t-shirt. Suddenly I found myself thinking of what my search results shown at least when it came to t-shirts.
Guys put their clothes on and gals take them off.
The other thing that's gotten me thinking recently concerns people obsessions with male anatomy. In particular the penis; with particular emphasis placed on the shape of it in relation to anthropomorphic artwork. Many of the comment that goes something like.
"It doesn't look enough the actual species." or some variant of that. Often with it coming down to it looks too much like a human penis. However after some reflection I realized that I've posted literally hundreds anthropomorphic females with very human breasts and I've never gotten anyone say.
"Those breasts look too human-like."
Now having done a fair bit of animal drawing and I can say the human breasts are very different from most other mammals, but I've never gotten comments that my skunk OC Rosemary Parker breasts look too human. Same for other parts of female anatomy. Then I started going back thinking about it and every single case I can think of where someone has commented that a penis didn't look right or it was accurate to a specific species its always been a guy making the comment.
In fact I had female classmate in college make the comment. "So long as it fits well and feels nice I don't care what it looks like."
Upon reflection this might be one of the reasons I might have done so few male nudes. Every time I post one someone has to obsess over the anatomy. Now for the record I will say right now I have no problem drawing male nudes. You don't make it through 4 years of life drawing if you have a problem with a nude male body, and let me tell you the plumbing comes in all kinds of shapes and sizes.
Reflecting further I realized how often I've taken up commission for male anthropomorphic characters, often with male customers, and found that their character description/background sheet will often include a paragraph or more describing the character's dick? This same character background sheet however will often not have the character's eye color or whether they are left or right handed?
However female character sheets, especially if provided by a female customer, will often much more useful and informative. Even saying if the character is right or left handed. Yeah!
Now I realize that my experience might not be the same as other artists, but these two events have made me pause and wonder what other unexamined biases myself and others might have. Its given me food for thought.
Comments
It did go under in 2012. BUT COH is BACK! One of the Devs saved the software and has been running A server quietly for years. It went public last year and is ALIVE AND WELL! The forum is here https://forums.homecomingservers.com/index.php?action=login Feel free to join the fun!
MishaFox
2020-08-08 08:39:40 +0000 UTCI thought that went offline a decade ago?
Sky Shatter
2020-08-08 04:34:15 +0000 UTCCool
MishaFox
2020-08-08 03:44:31 +0000 UTCI guess that's because first I imagine characters as being first and foremost real people.
Baron Engel
2020-08-07 01:24:27 +0000 UTCNot at the time I was working in the piece.
Baron Engel
2020-08-07 01:22:54 +0000 UTCYep.
Baron Engel
2020-08-07 01:22:02 +0000 UTCWith the hyper-inflation art it always feels as if the those characters are only life support systems for their (fill in the blank hyper-exaggerated body part). Their not individuals they just exist for whatever body part, or parts, they're drawn attached. It's also why I'm not into to hyper-ripped, muscle bound characters either.
Baron Engel
2020-08-07 01:21:29 +0000 UTCYour frustrated search does seem to reveal a bias in what's being offered -- or at least what's being searched for, which may affect what's being offered. (The source of a bias isn't always obvious, intentional, or for a predictable cause. Consider the early "pink Princess Celestia" in MLP:FIM merchandise.) The complaints about how you design parts of the characters you draw are -- well, I suppose I'd ask to see a real anthropomorphic horse for comparison. (Trick! We don't have any! Or do we?) Unless it's specified by a commissioner, it's all personal preference.
McClaw
2020-08-06 23:15:18 +0000 UTCOn the topic of your initial search... I don't know where you can find pictures of women dressing, but there are any number of sites where you can find video of them undress and redressing Resolution and angle probably aren't what you're looking for though, and the search function on such sites may not be as useful as you'd like. If you can write it off as a business expense, there are any numbers of ladies willing to do livestreams, who are gwnerally willing to grant reasonable audience requests. Though there probably won't be much drawing involved at her end.
ANTIcarrot
2020-08-06 22:22:57 +0000 UTCThat brings up a related point. There are numerous artists who specialize in furry hyper-inflation art. One of the reasons I like your art is that you do not. With the possible exception of Bulk Biceps but that’s more a matter of his natural — “YEAH!!!”
jeffh4
2020-08-06 17:24:55 +0000 UTCDo you have anyone who you can use as a female model? Someone who doesn’t mind posing for 15 minutes every once in a while?
jeffh4
2020-08-06 16:02:38 +0000 UTCYou make very valid points, Baron. Very thought provoking. And I have found the comments posted in response equally interesting. Thank you for bringing up the discussion. I look forward to reading more responses.
Karl Maurer
2020-08-06 08:25:36 +0000 UTCPersonally I always thought its a little crass to criticise how an artist draws sexy bits. Unless you're paying for the art, then it's rude, you're unlikely to change their mind, and it's more productive to look for another artist who draws things the way you like. There's also the double standard of 'beastly men, sexy girls' at play, in that Furrydom tends to produce lots of animal dicks, but fewer animal vaginas. Particularly noticeable with nagas, mermaids and shark girls. Artists will often find any excuse to keep drawing human vulva and human butts, even when it makes the anatomy look impractical or impossible. Though since you bring it up... The breasts you most typically draw are kinda more human in placement than shape. (Some exist like that, but they are not common) Same with your eyes. Both are a little closer to 'anime/cartooons' than what those parts of the human body actually look like. And while I tend not to follow artists who draw very human penises very often, it's easily shown that most drawn penises are (like tits and eyes) often several times bigger than they 'should' be. A lot of that comes down to making improvements over nature. Essentially that you can have large tits without sag, or back problems, and you can have a large penis without suffering brain-oxygen problems when all your blood rushes south to fill it. Or a more aesthetically pleasing design, and furry offers plenty of options there. A lot of that also probably boils down to artists gravitating to what shapes they feel can be drawn quickest for the most likes, and/or money. I also get the impression that some artists may be concerned that if they draw even a single example of unpopular or 'contraversial' anatomy that it could negatively impact their ability to earn money in the future, especially outside the fandom.
ANTIcarrot
2020-08-06 08:06:53 +0000 UTCHm. First of all, I want to say that I was interested, no, IT is very interesting to read this. Thank you very much for your story! Secondly, I will note that this is quite subjective (about guys describing a member on a paragraph). I am a guy myself, I made orders from different artists and I can say that I rather skirted this point in General in the description than wrote something. Description of hair, clothing items, or body position-Yes. There were large paragraphs and many sentences with pictures. But here is a description of the genitals(other than the description of the size of the female breast) I didn't do that. Third, about t-shirts. The answer is incredibly simple-Breasts. If a girl takes off her t-shirt , then she maximum exposes her stomach. If she puts it on , the viewer will see Breasts or underwear, and this is already TABOO in our strange society! Therefore, if in our society the ban on showing nipples and Breasts would be of both sexes - I think you would have very serious problems to find an example at all, even among men ;))) Fourth, a very interesting remark about penises and Breasts, and their resemblance to human ones. Indeed, even on my own example, I can say that I was also touched by such thoughts. But most likely it is more related to the way artists display gender identity. For example, Females are always more elegant and more similar to human women, and at the same time, Males are more related to animals than to people(they have more hair, claws, and other animal characteristics). Maybe that's the point. Maybe because of this, the Viewer in a more elegant and human body sees the match of a human female breast, and in a much more animal male character expect to see an animal member and not a human one? Fifth, about the character sheets. I do not think that specifying the parameters and characteristics of the character depends much on the gender of the customer. Rather, it depends on the character's thoughtfulness and important features for the customer. If the Customer does not see it necessary to indicate right-handed or left-handed - then it's possible he just doesn't need it or he thinks these items are "self-evident thing not asking her clarity". That is, it is about as "He did not indicate that the eyes are two and on the head... Maybe then there are no eyes or out of 7 all over the body?" Sixth - in fact, there are more of them than you think(about different features and biases), they are just too hidden or are an everyday part of life that is not paid attention to ;) Seventh, sorry for my poor English. It's not my native language.
Kontra
2020-08-06 06:54:40 +0000 UTCI play the MMO City of Heroes and the default breast size works out to HH Cup. Or as I call it - are those your breasts or are you trying to smuggle watermelons?
MishaFox
2020-08-06 06:03:05 +0000 UTCI have found your art refreshing. Your female characters have real sized breasts and not watermelon sized. The males are beleivable and not gigantic.
MishaFox
2020-08-06 06:01:34 +0000 UTCOh for pony's sake, the comment's getting deleted because I tried edit a spelling error, then a formatting error from pasting the copy. Sorry if this is spamming your email. Third time's the charm. Don't get me started. Don't even get me started. ... Imma get started. It's not just the breasts, but female genitalia is nearly always human on anthros as well. Even on ferals, female anatomy very, very often swings Homo sapiens, and teats are drawn with human breast structure. For stallions, I'd go so far as to say 95% of the artists that aim for equine anatomical correctness still don't know where male junk is located, and anchor it all to the character's rump, like a human bending down on all fours. I've tried to rationalize a justification for it, but I'm at a loss for anything practical. It's not a lack of research, because clearly the details of a stallion's dong have been scrutinized; it's not a preference for the familiar, because again, there wouldn't be such emphasis for a non-human phallus; it's not a lack of research, because some of these artists have been drawing for many years and understand the importance of references and figure study. Near as I can figure, it's a matter of male ego and objectivity. Not specifically sexism; rather, guys seem to view human female sexual structures as fundamentally part of what their baser instincts identify as "female form", while they see a penis as an individual, replaceable part that serves the function of displaying ego. Ergo, when they want to see a female of X species, it still has to have human female breasts and genitals in order to be recognized by their libido as "female", while the male genitalia needs to be crafted to this very specific expression of how they want to see the character represented. So for this common audience, a bestial phallus is a requirement to have in thematic parallel with a bestial face and tail, because they all communicate how the character identifies as an individual. So a human-looking penis on a non-human looks mismatched to them, while again, human female sexual components are considered inseparable from their mental definition of "female". So I guess, maybe it is sexist. At the very least, it's not a two-way street of thought. And yet they still want their dicks anchored to their butts.
Sky Shatter
2020-08-06 05:35:30 +0000 UTCUh... Was my comment too long? It's showing up on my phone app, but not on a browser or my desktop.
Sky Shatter
2020-08-06 05:21:15 +0000 UTCIt is funny how the people who read and respond to posts like this are rarely the ones who I feel need to read them. Trust you're just fine.
Baron Engel
2020-08-06 04:44:50 +0000 UTCNone of that was ever an issue with me as far as I can recall.
Thwaitesy
2020-08-06 04:30:51 +0000 UTCI have never had any issues with the way you draw a character’s body features. It is quite true that no two bodies are the same. So do keep drawing the way you do and I’ll and many others will be there to support you in whatever you do.
Octavia Melody
2020-08-06 03:47:21 +0000 UTCi cant help but to snicker at these valid points you made. Females are often imposed as sensual, erotic and eye pleasing idoms, which can be used fairly.. and unfairly at times. what does ick me is when people tend to overly critique what they impose as an ideal female body, and in some instances;male bodies. Funny at first but get old and irritating real quick. I for one enjoy different drawn body anatomies. Be it anthro, human, hybrid or even different genders altogether. In any case, i enjoy the methods and take you make when drawing any full-body piece. i learn a lot from the shapes of your characters' body parts.
Fundz64
2020-08-06 03:23:36 +0000 UTC
