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Fan Club “Blog” #11: Thoughts on Blades in the Dark - Deep Cuts



The TTRPG scene saw a super interesting, unexpected release this week- Blades in the Dark: Deep Cuts! An official, $10 supplement by Blades in the Dark creator John Harper that updates his beloved game of 19th century skullduggery to something like a "version 1.2".

Until today, Blades in the Dark has been a peculiar absence on Quinns Quest. If the channel's mission statement is to heroically flag great TTRPGs besides D&D, surely I should be talking about Blades?

Well, yes, I should be! Forgive me, benefactor, I'm doing it right now!

It's just that Quinns Quest is a project defined by my current interests & home games, while Blades is more like part of my past. Back in 2017 I ran an absolutely banging campaign and published a widely-shared review on Shut Up & Sit Down, helping to push the game to become as influential as it is today. And when a game I champion becomes quite as popular as this a funny thing happens- I start to feel guilty that the game I was shouting about has risen to quite such prominence while plenty of other great games are still unknown and unplayed. So I tend to close my big British mouth.

All the same, my excitement for Blades is still there, the way the coals of a fireplace retain heat long after you've let the fire go out. I found myself really excited to read Deep Cuts, and as I was reading it, I was caught off guard with a whisper from my heart- I wanted this book to make me excited about Blades again. I wanted to feel as passionate about the city of Doskvol and its cunning, eel-eating inhabitants as I did in 2017.

So, what's the verdict? Do I rate this expansion? Did the pages of Deep Cuts to act like so much tinder, and get my fire going again?

Well... yes. Yes, it absolutely did, even though I found this expansion to be a bit of a mixed bag. A mixed book? Whatever.

Let's get into it.



So first off, let me say that this is an ethical-ass way to do a new version of your game!

The TTRPG community often rolls its eyes at publishers doing new editions of games, with some fans of the game (rightly) seeing it as a cash grab from the publisher (who in the publisher's defense do need to make money) or disliking the changes that now feel oddly mandatory.

Instead, Blades in the Dark: Deep Cuts offers about 115 pages of stuff for Blades that the book insists you use or ignore as you see fit. For the low price of $10 fans can support John Harper and the game they love, John Harper still gets to publish all of the adjustments he fancies making to his famous criminal baby, and there's even a super interesting handful of pages at the back of Deep Cuts where John explains his thoughts behind each idea. What diplomacy! 🕊️

...although I have just this second realised that newcomers to Blades now have to buy the original Blades rulebook and then buy a $10 supplement that tells you to ignore about 50 of the dense pages of rules that you just read. Which seems godawful. 😂 Oh well.

Anyway, I described this book as a mix of good and bad?

WELL. As I started reading the first thing that happened was that a lot of my goodwill actually started getting chipped away. The first two thirds of Deep Cuts is all worldbuilding stuff to expand the universe & tyrannical city of Doskvol, and I was surprised to find that it hardly moved me at allllll

There's some stuff in here to build out the universe outside the city, and while it's nice to have more information on the subjugated minorities who were painted very thinly in the original book, a lot of it feels like the kind of big-picture politics and warfare that players don't need to know. There's also a new, suggested city-wide threat where the veil between this world and another (unspecified) world is thinning and (unspecified) strangers are showing up, as if what was really missing from Blades in the Dark was something to shake things up. You know, as if the entire base game wasn't a powder keg of petty grievances and devastating injustices in the first place?



I was reading all of this, and I just didn't want it at all. To me, one of the pillars of Blades in the Dark is that, contrary to other RPGs out there, it's not about an external threat coming for your society, it's about just living in a society. It's about your crew controlling one street corner and trying to turn that into ten street corners. And then one of the mechanics that is fundamental to the game is that this power grab is so stressful that you literally must turn to a vice like alcohol, endangering everything you've gained with your drinking until you die or retire.

What the first half of Deep Cuts felt like to me, with its new technologies and continental developments and city-threatening plot hooks, was content to act as life support for the campaigns of players who have been playing Blades since it came out in 2015. And that is for sure not me.

(Side note- there's a funny coincidence in all of this. I read the excellent 2022 fantasy novel The City of Last Chances because it was pitched to me as "Blades in the Dark: The Novel", and that has an unexpected bit of worldbuilding where visitors are crossing over through a veil between worlds. And now here's a Blades expansion that also introduces to Blades visitors crossing over a veil between worlds, except as John Harper writes it, it's a little boring.)

I was also struck by something that... well, it's bad news for Blades in the Dark, but good news for TTRPGs as a whole! 😅 When I was reading all of the new city factions that were mentioned in Blades and are now finally fleshed out in Deep Cuts, I was left thinking to myself:

"Man. The writing in this book is only okay."

That's not something I noticed when I read Blades back in 2017! But today, having spent the last couple of years reading games by The Gauntlet, Mythworks and Rowan Rook & Decard, I was stunned to discover that my standards have crept up in the time since Blades was published.



So, yeah. There's some nice worldbuilding stuff in Deep Cuts that I'd take - I did appreciate that (a) players can now aspire to buy an unfathomably expensive motorcycle and (b) the book implies they are immediately going to drive it into a canal. But a lot of the new, suggested lore you're paying for here I felt I'd ignore.

"Wow," I thought to myself. "Maybe this game isn't as good as I remembered. Maybe I can stop fantasising about running another Blades campaign."

...Then I got to the second half of Deep Cuts, which is a thorough fine-tuning of almost every part of Blades' ruleset. I started reading, and you know what happened?

I was glued to my chair. I sat stock still until I'd finished reading the entire .pdf. Then I went to my flatmate's room, knocked on his door, and said:

"We should play a Blades in the Dark campaign."

I don't know if I'd use absolutely all of the tweaks to Blades' rules in Deep Cuts, but reading the back half of the book was both a warming reminder of why Blades set my heart on fire and also a sequence of startling realisations that John had found yet another pocket where he could tighten it up. The man has been watching this game get playtested to death like an engineer watching a car in a wind tunnel.

I can't get into everything here, but let's make a case study of what could be the single biggest change- with Deep Cuts, when players are doing skill checks, they're no longer rolling to see if they succeed. They're "rolling to avoid threats".

Basically, when the player says "I want to hang from the rope and jimmy open the window" or "I use my rapier to slice the man's coin purse open", you're no longer rolling to see if you can do it, because you can. You're a professional. (And in fact, one of the biggest feelbad moments in my old Blades campaign came from exactly this- a player tried to climb a brick wall, failed the roll, and I narrated that he injured his finger on the way up. That didn't rhyme with his headcanon and I was quite stern about my ruling, so he sulked.)

Deep Cuts now suggests that if there's no threat, players simply succeed. Dice rolls are for when they want to jimmy open the window and there's a risk the guard on the other side will hear them, or when they want to slice open the man's coin purse while dodging the man's shiv. And what's truly marvellous is that if there are multiple threats, two or even three, the GM states them all and the player must use each dice that's a success (or mixed success) to avoid (or kinda avoid) just one of them.

Let me get into the weeds a bit here: First off, having to assign different dice to different threats is a super fun tactical decision players now get to make, that also immerses the scoundrel PCs in scenes where they're sweating bullets over two frightening threats at once. Second, this empowers players and helps everyone love the PCs because it nudges the game towards competency porn (which has always been a part of Blades in the Dark) and away from frustration even though this tweak doesn't actually make the game any easier. Finally, and perhaps most importantly, it makes the game play faster because the GM no longer needs to figure out what the failure or mixed success that a player just rolled means, because they only roll when you all KNOW what's at stake.

Trust me when I say that this same delicate expertise has been applied to almost everything in Blades, from Trauma to Load, from Stress to Advancement, from Teamwork to Devil's Bargains. Reading each of these sections was a one-two punch: I remembered how much I loved interacting with the system in the first place, and then I realised John had made it even slicker.

The only area where I personally might want to find some common ground between the original Blades and the new version presented in Deep Cuts is in the grand, zoomed-out drama that powers Blades between the action sequences- namely, the game of "Where is territory and money changing hands? Who did you piss off and was it the cops? Are you gonna get whooped upside the head with some unexpected consequences? And how do each of your PCs spend the weeks where you have to wait and see about said whoopin'?"



In the process of cleaning up this part of the game, Deep Cuts makes this process almost entirely diceless. The management of Coin, Heat, Stress, Reputation and Advancement is now a bit more like a tactical board game. You could also imagine it as a complex series of predictable levers and pulleys: A faction will act against you unless you spend a resource improving your standing by +1. Your vice will clear your stress without consequences, unless you have 6 or more stress.

And I DON'T LIKE IT

Look, I'm going to be ever-so-slightly facetious for a second, but this update is good if you're a BIG DWEEB who wants to treat running a criminal enterprise like it's a fuckin' SPREADSHEET, who wants to rip power from the hands of underworld bosses and expect to know WHAT WILL UPSET THEM. It's good if you're someone who wants to avoid being raided by the cops after only making them look a little bit stupid, or who wants to treat their character's addiction like it's a known quantity

But to me? So much of the joy of TTRPGs is when the story is a nasty, feral little thing that surprises everyone at the table. I want big, curvy twists of fate that make me hesitate as a GM because this plot isn't going where I thought it was. My players can feel that.

And look, if you want a really engaging sort of board game full of factors for you to fuss over? You'll be very happy. But my gut says that if I put this optional ruleset in front of my players, some of them might want it, but some might not, and not only would we encounter friction regarding who's engaged in min-maxing this game and who wants to make a rough plan & see what the dice say, I think the game would get slower because what was previously a dice roll was now a big discussion.

Or maybe it's great! 🙃 I haven't played it. And perhaps the more important conclusion that I should now admit... is that I'd be inclined to at least try even this new Downtime ruleset rather than sticking with what I already know. John Harper's the master of this stuff, after all. Maybe it absolutely hums.

If you've read Deep Cuts, do leave me a comment and let me know what you think. And if you're actually PLAYING Deep Cuts right now, please leave a comment enlightening us all. Where am I wrong? The people need to know.

In the meantime, I'm going to greedily consider whether my 2025 has time for a new Blades campaign without disrupting any of the games I have to play for Quinns Quest.

Can I make it work? Sounds like a Desperate Position to me...

-- Quinns

Comments

I'm late to this, but I love the supplement. I haven't run nearly as much Blades as I like to but the systems smooths out just about all my headaches I had with it. I really like the new technology and some of the story stuff as a way to sort of advance the timeline, like you said, shake the city up a bit. The expanding the city project and airships are super cool. The other world stuff is neat and I want to use it in a game I'm trying to get together, but I like it as like, the reason that the airship is hanging over the city now. The players don't need to know about it because the Empire is trying very hard to cover it up. Some stuff is just there and for my brain I like knowing the reason it's there, but it needn't come up in play. The story at the table is still about turning that one street corner into ten. There's just some new factions at play and some new weird stuff going on in the background. Plus, I have a wider friend circle of people who have almost exclusively played 5e, and although it's not directly mentioned in Deep Cuts, the other world seems like a cheeky but explainable way to "port" characters from one world to this one, from one system to this one, if the table is looking to try it out but are attached to what they already have going on. Realistically that's probably a rare case but now there's a very approachable option.

Jordan Carl

Incidentally, I’m happy to hear advice from anyone on how they’ve made the post-score cleanup more engaging for players using either version. Still can feel a bit like a tax return.

Joseph Klingman

I am already using mechanical elements of Deep Cuts in my ongoing campaign (8 sessions). This post drew together for me Harper’s Threat Rolls with what Chris McDowall (Into the Odd) did in removing roll-to-hit. I am very interested in whether both work as intended, shifting player interaction from mechanics— “will the system let me do this?”—to the fiction—“when I play this out, how does the world respond?” Haven’t started using them, as I’m also wary of a potential player learning curve. By contrast, I rolled Deep Cuts’ payout/downtime mechanics in almost immediately, and they (so far) seem to streamline at least the fallout from the score, if not also the downtime activities. (I GM for three friends each in different time zones, so time is of the essence.)

Joseph Klingman

Please make a followup after your campaign, it would really help. Or even a quick video.

xdan

Yes, thank you!

Quinns

Heaven and Earth have been conspiring to stop this review from happening 😭 we love you Quinns and can’t wait to see it!

TaxiPhish

HELLO ALL. Quinns here. Patreon DELETED THIS SITE due to an accident at their end. 🫠 They're restoring "what they can" very slowly. It's been a miserable week for me. I'm very, very sorry for the inconvenience caused. Hilariously, I don't even own the page right now as they *still* haven't reinstated me as an owner. I had to subscribe to the Patreon just to post this. When they make me an owner again I'll be restoring chat and posting the last review of season 2. And probably pouring myself a stiff drink.

quintinsmithster@gmail.com

I subbed again! Did i do it right?

Tom Lavery

No, the chat seems gone for now.

TKB_Legend

Seems to me that subscribing again makes me pay a second time for this month. Maybe it doesn't matter if you originally subscribed after 21st, but if you did so on the 20th it's more like doubling the fee for this month. I rather wait a bit longer and see how everything turns out. Also wondering what made Patreon to delete Quinns Quest in the first place.

Jere Widenius (Kasanen)

After subscribing again, do you have access to the chat? Or it's currently not working for anyone?

Andi

I had to subscribe again...

TKB_Legend

Yeah, I don't seem to be a member anymore, hopefully that works itself out too.

Abrahm Simons

Although all posts are now public, membership seems borked, and the community chat is gone (which may be related to membership being borked).

Mikkel Østergaard

It lives!

Derek Rawlings

Hooray, the Patreon is back from the nether realm!

Highflyer

But what I despise the most is that the player cannot choose freely how they are going to do what they want to accomplish

Jere Widenius (Kasanen)

I definitely think the new harm rules are worth trying out.

Benjamin Smith

I think I first came across rolling to avoid harm rather than to suceed in Stealing Stories for the Devil. Since then I've been making use of it wherever I can.

Ian Newborn

Yeah the comparison of "Threat Roll" to the guidance in the Mothership Warden's Operation Manual for Saves and Stat Checks is really appropriate. It will be more useful for some groups than others, but when you've established the threat as GM before the roll it's easier to follow through with consequences after.

edmo

Thank you greatly Quinns for the heads up. I already gave up after short flip through the first part of Deep Cuts and would have never found out the greatness that was hiding at the back. I personally love the idea of avoiding threats and failing is just another threat. Marvelously simple.

Jere Widenius (Kasanen)

What a great review. Cheers Quinns Personally I am very excited to try out the new threat and harm rules. They seem like they'll sing.

Ads

Tbh, the threat roll and new harm rules don't appeal to me because I want the game shaken up. Zero interest in that. They appeal because they seem... better, more fun... which is an amazing to thing to say given that Blades is already great.

Ads

Yeah, I just recently added this idea to my Call of Cthulhu campaign. It was actually very humorous: the investigators were discussing what actions they should pursue, and one player sarcastically said, "I bet we'll have to roll for it and fail." But they persevered and did it anyway. They tensed up, expecting those awful words no mortal wants to hear—"make a [insert skill] check"—and they braced for impact......... but those words were never uttered. It was a good idea, so instead, I went full "yes, and" for that particular moment, and storytelling ensued. TL;DR the mentality of "rolling to avoid threats" needs to be infused more in TTRPGs.

Patrick Onofre

Since I am more focused on Forged in the Dark games more broadly, I skipped ahead to the rules modules and haven't returned to the setting material. I really like the harm module, which makes sense given that harm is one of the aspects of the game I see more frequently critiqued or just disliked by players and other designers. Invoking Harm makes the involvement of harm in the story a bit more flexible but should also make for some memorable moments. Threat Rolls replacing Action Rolls is the big part I am not sure about yet and want to try out in play. I *do* think there's a good chance that a number of FitD actual plays will try out the Threat Roll. I think that the Threat Roll paradigm is likely to increase the pace of play and involve the GM calling for fewer but more impactful rolls with players figuring out how to allot dice to multiple threats in a roll. Plus there's less of a focus on negotiating position and effect, which may be more table business than some AP audiences prefer (I love hearing the table talk, but I'm also a designer and AP creator, so I am not the general audience).

Michael R. Underwood

The new skill resolution mechanic kind of reminds me of the Havoc engine in Eat the Reich, although in that system, successes can be assigned to a variety of things (reducing damage, reducing threats, or achieving objectives).

Roger Eberhart

But I'm not sure I have all of them, as my payment solution died and I lost access to susd supporters for a while

Jacob Engelbrecht-Gollander

I don't think so. But someone ought to go through all the susd newsletters and pick it out... I might do that.

Jacob Engelbrecht-Gollander

Is there a collection of these recommendations somewhere? Someone I worked with brought up Children of Time and I remembered seeing it in a SUSD video which is what pushed me over the fence to ultimately reading and loving the whole series.

Seth M

I love that the "rolling to avoid threats" mentality regarding dice rolls is starting to pick up steam in the TTRPG scene. First time I saw that was with Mothership, and this one piece of advice made my game so much more engaging for my players

BakaTyler

I've only started running a Blades campaign in the last few months (after years in GM retirement). I have to say, for me, the new lore stuff is what I would make use of, rather than having to teach my players entirely new rulesets when we just got started. I can absolutely see, however, how groups that have been playing for awhile would love to shake up the action rolls and downtime.

Benjamin Smith

Exactly! Rolls should be consequential.

Edward Stafford

I was like "no way it's that impressive" and then I read the bit about rolling dice to overcome threats instead of to see if you succeed and thought "okay wow that sounds like it might be the future of TTRPG design"

Blizzic

John did an interview with Dieku about the new expansion and I think the lore stuff is meant to be a mix of stuff he did at his table and some attempts to build a bridge to Blades in '68 I'm very excited about Blades in '68 and if it still uses the old dice system I'll have to try it with this one! Though my Blades players do keep saying they want to go back to Doskvol so maybe I'll get a chance sooner than that

John Willcox-Beney

The new rules for Harm are my favourite bit. The old rules felt punishing in a way that wasn't fun, just "You are now worse at everything and contribute less". And healing them ususally took multiple downtimes or you just had to bench your dude for a session which felt rubbish in a game about making cool characters.

Sam Armstrong

I just started a campaign of Deep Cuts and the rolling to avoid threats really works well. We're ignoring most of the lore and it's more just an option for story threads for the DM is they need them. The dice less downtime was hit and miss. I appreciated not needing to use all my downtime to reduce stress because of some bad rolls, but it took a lot of the fun (and theme) from pushing your luck to reduce stress but with the risk of overindulgence. Curious what other folks think!

Patrick Humpal

I like roll to avoid threat. It's a move in the direction I like of failure not meaning incompetence. I have been trying to work out something similar, like "roll to see what the story is" rather than "roll to see if you succeed". Anything really to help players enjoy failure and not take it personally I guess.

Lojaan

This deserves a "hell yeah!"

Lojaan

I'm glad to see you echo a lot of the criticisms I had reading the book. I thought the 'other living world' stuff would be great in any other rpg, but not the best fit for Blades. It shifts the genre too much, it's like "what if halfway through Breaking Bad people started getting abducted by aliens?" The supplement is still fantastic though. I gave my group copies of the new rules to look over so we can collectively decide which ones we want to play with or tweak. I do have some light doubt on the actual 'modularity' of each rule change since they seem to be balanced against one another as a package, but having played Blades for over two years now I know that this isn't a game that's really meant to feel very 'fair' one way or the other.

ABAKES7

I was right with you on the worldbuilding part of the book. Doskvol was very similar to Dishonored to me, so the idea of another world and strangers did not click with me. Until John describes them as possible time traveler. And then I remembered that Blades '68 exists. (See https://x.com/OldDogGames/status/1630395642123288577) And now I want to do a Blades or Blades '68 campaign mixing the two.

Julien Blic

I actually had the opposite impression you did regarding threat rolls (I shared my reasons above), but overall enjoyed the read, and there's talk in my group of starting a Blades campaign where I can be the player for once! Im purposely not reading any of the lore from Deep Cuts so there's potential to be surprised by the new content.

Austin Binkley

I have not tried using threat rolls yet, but what you said about the possibility space for consequences feeling limited with threat rolls is exactly what I was thinking when I read about this change, and I'm not sure why either. There are definitely times when we perform action rolls because a threat is presented already, and in those cases I don't see an issue with using threat rolls instead. Though there are also times when an action roll is done because someone just really wants to roll dice, or there's a scenario where the position is risky (or higher), with no obvious threat to the action a player is taking, where Im not sure just doing threat rolls instead would suffice. I think in these cases, getting a mixed success, or worse, can push me as a GM to come up with fun consequences as result- consequences that oftentimes aren't even "consequences" in so much as they happen because of the action being performed, but more so because a roll happened, and the story now dictates for some interesting development to occur, with the in-game reason ranging from anything to "consequences for actions taken a while ago" to simply "bad luck." Maybe this can still be achieved using threat rolls, but I feel like I'd have to come up with that stuff extremely fast, on the spot, and communicate before the roll happens, whereas with an action roll I can go "You know what, it feels like there should be risk of some twist in the story happening here, let's do a roll and see if that's the case."

Austin Binkley

I haven't red deep cuts. But this post did make me realise how much I used to count on Quinns for book recommendations in the suasd newsletter. So Quinns , please do a what am I booksing for me every once in a while ❤️

Jacob Engelbrecht-Gollander

The you're-a-professional-so-stuff-you-do-normally-succeeds-but-go-ahead-and-roll-when-there's-a-complication bit is very Mothership, and I love to see it gaining traction elsewhere!

Seth M

Thrilled that this is Quinns' idea of a "quick" blog thrown together whilst recovering from an injury. If only I could print it off on broadsheet newspaper so I can read it the way it demands.

Gregory Morrison

We played a score on Monday with the new rules, but didn't get as far as downtime, which we'll take a look at later. Most of the changes are how the game was already leaning, particularly with Harm, load etc. These are incredibly good clarifications that confirm that Harper is a rules genius. As habitual Blades players, though, we did trip over the Threat roll and I am not totally sure why. We already don't often use controlled and just assume risky/standard and all that stuff, but it felt like the shift in focus from "what do you want to achieve" to "what is the threat you face" reduced the possibility space somehow, perhaps because all the consequences are about the threat, whereas a 4-5 roll in Fitd types rules systems is more open to suggestions and interpretations for what else might have gone wrong? idk, I need to play it more to see if we adjust the rhythm to match. We also snarled up on powers being activated by pushing yourself, but pushing yourself now being a retroactive condition-changer-that-is-also-resist. It left my players a bit baffled about why the power was still linked to the push mechanic. Also the problem Harper cites as the reason to change this, that people felt cheated by spending stress to push, was the opposite of how my group experienced it: they were putting in that extra bit of effort to try and make sure it went their way. They didn't feel cheated if the dice rolled well anyway, but ALSO the excellent Edge idea already addresses that without the need for the additional change. This felt like it was perhaps streamlined in a way that removed some interesting friction or decision making. I wonder if in the same way that the capriciousness of chance has been removed from downtime, there's a loss here, too. Hmm! We'll have to play it more and see, but it was harder to run at the table than I expected from reading it.

Jim Rossignol

That last line made me smile.

Adam K Bunnell

last month one of my groups started a blades campaign. We were only able to get through session 0 before life got in the way. However deep cuts came out before we were able to get together again. Read it, and put it in front of my players to try. All were down. We've had one session so far. My thoughts as of now. It is taking me a bit to get use to the new style John Harper is doing in the game. Like there is something in my brain that is making it hard to click. I have a player who was in my previous Blades in the Dark campaign. They noticed the shift on how they played as well and took them a bit to adjust. The new downtime mechanics did feel a bit spreadsheety, maybe it's just how i ran it, but it did feel like it took a way a bit from the downtime and RPing that section. We did have fun overall. I am curious how the overall campaign will go with these mechanics.

Jose Sandoval


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