Early & Ad Free: The Electrical Backbone of Our Catamaran (I Hope It Works) ⚡️ Building Our Own Boat Pt. 12
Added 2024-11-01 11:50:07 +0000 UTCHeya amazing Delos Tribe! We've got one dooooozie of an episode on tap for ya today. We've got 32 minutes of problem solving, nerdy graphics including us riding a unicorn, and cutting holes in the boat as we dive into the week long project of installing the electrical backbone of Delos 2.0. We needed to figure out a way to send the sheer amount of power we will need from our batteries to our hybrid electric propulsion system on opposite ends of the boat. Traditional wires weren't very practical or affordable (we'll explain why in the episode!) so we had to get a little creative and explore some other alternatives, and what we came up with is pretty dang cool if you ask me! We hope you enjoy this one, we tried to go into as much detail as possible and dive deep into our planning and decision making process, but as always drop your questions in the comments below and we'll cover anything we might have missed!
Sending big hugs from Australia!
Brian, Kazza, & Sierra
Direct link to watch on YouTube:https://youtu.be/-9Mqyg9t82U
Comments
HI Brian - hope you have reviewed all the comments on you YouTube Channel on this episode by experienced Marine Electrical engineers - many of whom seem very concerned about this design. When you have that many people expressing concern its worth paying attention.
Philip Copeland
2024-11-14 17:32:13 +0000 UTCInteresting solutions. A few concerns: Wouldn’t using a much higher voltage battery configuration and electric motors make the power distribution easier and more efficient than 48V? Where is all the heat generated in the bus bars with 3% voltage drop going to get dissipated? The bus bars are thermally quite well insulated. Did you account for return path in the voltage drop calculations (twice the nominal length). How about the added resistance of each plate of each splice? How is the steering system flex in rough seas or with the rig tensioned going to affect the tight clearances through the channels in the hull structure? The stainless steel shaft won’t flex as much as the hull.
John Graves
2024-11-10 03:44:21 +0000 UTCI love the idea of using bus bars, but when it's energized, what happens if you pour sea water into the channels?
William Santiago
2024-11-08 15:02:03 +0000 UTCThanks Bill, I appreciate your kind words.
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:33:15 +0000 UTCThanks for your kind words Thomas!
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:32:50 +0000 UTCHey Keith, no it's just meant to keep the compression between the plates themselves. I oversized the the overlapping plate in the splice to account for the lost area of the screws, but good thinking!
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:31:53 +0000 UTCOne thing you might want to do is to place some temperature sensors at the joints. Those would be the most likely points of resistance buildup and hence heat. The other potential point of failure would be the seal between the conductor and the insulation. There will be movement because of the difference between the thermal expansion rates of copper vs fiberglass over that distance.
Eric Phinney
2024-11-05 11:29:11 +0000 UTCHey David, I actually supported the structure on box aluminum that was welded to the hull, then zip tied it in place through the box and around the channel so that is holds it firmly and slightly above the frames. That's the plan anyway!
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:28:18 +0000 UTCIt didn't show in the video but I actually stacked pieces of the 3mm insulation up to equal the height of the splice, then put one solid piece across so there wouldn't be any bending or weird rubbing.
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:26:32 +0000 UTCHey guys- It was mostly a way to save space and labor. Running 1 channel was difficult, two would have been twice as hard!
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:25:12 +0000 UTCHa yeah, the shop vac had an extensive session after the little nibbler :)
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:24:23 +0000 UTCHey Eric, good things to consider. There is 8mm of glass between the two layers. Normal insulation on the larger battery cables is 2-3 mm of plastic so I feel really confident in the insulation portion of things!
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:23:47 +0000 UTCHey I put myself through university working at USWest and Qwest back in the tip & ring days :). Thanks for the comment and info!
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:21:04 +0000 UTCThanks for your kind words Mike. And also the gift in Annapolis also :)
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:19:10 +0000 UTCHey Vince, actually both of these are planned. I'm going to utilize the NMEA 2K sensors that will plug right into the N2K network and monitor both voltage and temp, that way I can monitor real time, set alarms, and all that good stuff. It'll be fun to see how it all comes together.
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:16:45 +0000 UTCThe copper is free to expand inside the channel length wise so I don't think it should be much of an issue. I hope not too hope, it will be temp monitored so I can keep an eye on it while we're in sea trials.
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:15:08 +0000 UTCHey Mark- I've actually been working with the team at Bruntons to utilize their Ecostar prop, which is very similiar to the Autoprop we've had on Delos and absolutely love. It's a very cool design and should be a good performing prop for this application. I'll put some more info out after we get the props. Brian
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:14:01 +0000 UTCI did lots of research on this and most of the references I found said that conductive grease utilizes carbon. And carbon is higher on the nobility index which could cause potential galvanic corrosion issues. So I decided not to risk it and went copper to copper on the bus bars utilizing solely compression.
Sailing SV Delos
2024-11-05 11:12:24 +0000 UTCDid you use conductive grease between the splice plates?
Gravytrain
2024-11-04 21:49:39 +0000 UTCI understand in commercial installations thermography is used to monitor these.
Eric Phinney
2024-11-04 12:01:21 +0000 UTCGreat idea on the bus bar I believe it will last forever
Mike Turn
2024-11-04 05:19:59 +0000 UTCI've been thinking about your fresh approach to hybrid propulsion. Have you started working on the propeller dilemma yet? Sailboat props are horribly inefficient due to the optimization for low drag under sail. Since you will be using them for regen, you don't need to prioritize a folding prop. The one use case is low speed sailing where you don't have enough speed for regen. I wonder if using just a little bit of power to turn the prop just to minimize drag during sailing at say < 4-5 knots would be offset by the vast efficiency gains under power and regen (when sailing faster) by using a large prop optimized for propulsion and regeneration.
Mark Long
2024-11-03 06:19:56 +0000 UTCAnother great episode. I love this technical stuff. Do you need to consider the difference in thermal expansion between the copper and fiberglass… especially along the sides. How warm would you expect the conductors to get?
Dan Moss
2024-11-03 04:10:10 +0000 UTCProbably too late, but you should consider installing RTD sensors on your bus bar "T" splice that has the multiple pieces stacked. If you start to develop resistance in those splices in the future, having the ability to monitor the temperature will warn you before a catastrophic failure occurs. Or alternatively you could install a voltmeter that monitors the voltage drop between the beginning and end of each bus bar. In this way, if the measured voltage started to increase over time you would know you are developing resistance in the bar.
Vince Acquistapace
2024-11-02 23:49:13 +0000 UTCFantastic episode- the thought of all that power going through that copper makes me feel a bit queasy, I‘m sure this one kept you up at night.
Robin Henkys
2024-11-02 22:33:41 +0000 UTCWatching you figure out how to efficiently run power thru the boat was amazing! (I hope they don't hire you as their electric designer?) Building it seemed like a lot of work ........... but you saved yourself a Fortune in design/build/materials costs ...... by tackling the job yourself. Good on you Mate! A "bus bar" ....... capitol idea that I am sure will be copied on other boats in the future. Too bad you couldn't test it yet. The bus is just like inside a home eclectic junction box ....... but mega sized. Your degree helps make you the Master Craftsmen and problem solver that you are! Keep amazing us with brain power ... and keep 'em flyin.
Bonne Mike
2024-11-02 15:17:01 +0000 UTCOh hey, silly amounts of 48VDC, this reminds me of a telephone office, where I spent the early part of my career! If the voice of experience would be unwelcome at this point in the build, stop reading now, otherwise here goes: In telephony, it's standard practice to scuff the surfaces bright and shiny with a Scotch-Brite pad (and vacuum up the dust) and then apply anticorrosive grease before mating any splices together or landing any lugs. Sanchem NO-OX-ID is the grease of choice up here, I don't know if you can get it there but I'm happy to lick a stamp if it helps. It's basically petroleum jelly with some additives, and super easy to work with. I've pulled apart joints made 40 years ago with that stuff, and they were shiny as the day they were new. I also hope you packed a ton of the red fiberglass scraps around the aft end where it's very close to the bulkhead. An errant drillbit there later would spell disaster, and hopefully if pink dust comes up on a drill, it should give someone pause. (Also, what keeps the whole kaboodle from wiggling backward and contacting the frame member? I have concerns about fiberglass abrasion over years of wave motion. The standard busbar mounting here is insulating "cherries", which are red fiberglass standoffs with threaded bushings in either side. When in doubt, support it with more cherries!) Oh and for the record, 0000 wire is just the largest that can be expressed in the American Wire Gauge system -- beyond that we measure in MCM, which is a silly inch-based unit, but it directly expresses the cross-sectional area of the conductor. I guess they'd just use mm² in metric countries. Sizes of 350MCM, 500MCM, 750MCM (sometimes 777) and 1000MCM are readily available, and I've pulled miles of 750 into telephone offices to power new fuse boards. Typically sixteen parallel runs -- eight positives and eight negatives, split between A-side and B-side feeds. I was younger and more flexible then! That said, the wire is expensive, the crimp lugs are expensive, and of course you need a hydraulic crimper to attach them, but that's the case with anything over 6AWG. The brass screws are a brilliantly generic and serviceable approach!
Agent of Entropy
2024-11-02 04:54:55 +0000 UTCThat was so cool and loved the shout out to Ran would be cool to see you guys visit them on one of your trips to Sweden to check out their boat build Delos 2.0 is coming along
Lisa & Claude
2024-11-01 23:37:37 +0000 UTCdoing a tiny bit of research tells me that providing for thermographic monitoring is common along with clear standards for sealing for water and dust as well as the dielectric separation of the conductors. There is extensive engineering involved in designing bus duct systems. Many such systems do exist to meet various conditions. I wonder if there are other examples of self engineered systems that meet electrical codes. You have no doubt done a deep dive into this topic. I would love to hear more on the technical/standards side of your design.
Eric Phinney
2024-11-01 23:14:12 +0000 UTCYour design looks good but i am wondering about how this would meet industrial electrical standards. Did you have an electrical/Power transmision engineer have eyes on this? I would be concerned with the separation distance between the + and - buss bars and the integrity of the seal between them. Is this the normal ways these channels are used?
Eric Phinney
2024-11-01 22:31:24 +0000 UTCLooks like your time as a lineman, training as an engineer, an lifetime experience is all coming together in this project. Watching all those nibbler fragments fly around make me wonder about the possibility for stray currents or abberant and unintended connections and tracking them down after the build is complete. Glad you have a LOT more experience than I on this topic. Very interesting solution to a powerful issue on sailing boats. Thanks!!
Steve Borst
2024-11-01 20:34:50 +0000 UTCGreat video! I'm sure you considered this (and obviously it would have been more work)--however, I am curious as to why you chose not to run two independent positive and negative busses to separate any moisture or physical wear and tear, thus providing more short-circuit isolation? We've been following you from the beginning and enjoyed finally meeting you (and the rest of the Trautman family) at Annapolis! Thank you for sharing your adventures with all of us! ❤️⛵️
John & Bobbie Nester
2024-11-01 17:40:41 +0000 UTCThey say the talent to solve problems is a reflection of yr intelligence 🤪you are very intelligent Brian 🕉️😜🕉️😜🕉️😜🕉️
Jeanne H. Mathieu
2024-11-01 16:57:53 +0000 UTCLooks legit! My only question is where the splices are at on the positive bars and the insulator sheet above it. Overtime the edges of the splice could rub through the insulator as the flex of the negative bar being on top of it. Did you do anything special in that area?
jpiland73
2024-11-01 16:54:58 +0000 UTCIt's not Why day or Let's be Shy day. It's SV Delos Friday and it's time to boldly hit PLAY! Hey, I knew a guy who worked for the local community transit system. On Friday nights after work he would stop by the Bus Bar and have a beer. Because he served the community they didn't even charge him. The current situation has changed since he's now retired. He resisted at first but then he went with the flow.
Scott C. Wise
2024-11-01 16:50:03 +0000 UTCIn more than ten years of Delos videos, I don't think I ever remember Brian using the word "defeated"! I'm glad it was just a passing moment of frustration. I was also wondering about some of the same technical questions raised in the earlier comments already. I'm sure you thought of all of this in your process, but I have another one - is there any concern about long-term friction and vibration causing any problems with the fiberglass channel passing through all those aluminum frame members? Obviously, it would not be good if the fiberglass wore through or cracked, and it seems like it won't be easy to get at it later. But all in all, another fascinating episode.
David Levine
2024-11-01 16:30:42 +0000 UTCThis episode tickles all the right brain folds. There is just so much to consider, from the physical layout, the potential resistance in each splice, all the insulating. And then the magnitude of current makes you second guess all the assumptions that feel safe with most electrical problems. Even more perfect for YouTube is instead of testing this in a simulation, there is the suspense to test all of these on your actual boat. Great episode and work!
Erik Lyon
2024-11-01 15:31:00 +0000 UTCHave you considered "Electrical Contact Grease" for all those bolted connections in your buss bar? You might consider this one https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-contact-lubricant.html
Mark Devaney
2024-11-01 14:20:40 +0000 UTCOutstanding engineering is all I can say. I love the bus bar design. Wonderful custom install.I wonder when you seal this against water intrusion, if a pressure or vacuum test of the channel could give better warm and fuzzy about the water tight seal. Maybe I'm overthinking this, but thought Id throw it out anyway. Love from Annapolis. See you on the next tack !
Mickey Finn
2024-11-01 14:01:54 +0000 UTCHey Brian, I'm sure you thought of this, but since you didn't mention it - is that thread locker stuff you used on the brass bolts electrically conductive, or is the physical contact between the copper bars enough? It's all looking awesome though - this and the steering video were super interesting to me. Cheers!
Keith Bailey
2024-11-01 13:53:08 +0000 UTCHey Brian I love how you elaborate on voltage over surface area. That's something that not a lot of people really know or understand. As I've told you I work in Telecom on cell phone towers. And for grounding the shelter they use flat copper as well although there is this 3 to 6" to handle a lightning strike but still the same principle. Brilliant idea!!!!
Derek
2024-11-01 13:43:06 +0000 UTCBrian I am continually amazed at your technical aptitude , I love how all your & Kazza’s sailing experience trial & error of the countless repairs on water have turned into building the Perfect catamaran…This cat is built like a brick shithouse and will make the most from all the solar… Reinventing the wheel has to be so frustrating but like you said..The finished product will be like no other on the water…I’m happy to be a patron and support…As a father of 3 myself, I really appreciate how safe you are making this yacht for your family…Cheers from Sag Harbor New York a little village nestled in the famous “Hampton’s NY”
Thomas Stuckart
2024-11-01 13:42:49 +0000 UTCWow! That's all I can say is "WOW"! The only way I can compare my understanding to what you just accomplished is to look back to episode 341 where you were trying to explain the Sextant to Taylor and she waved her hand over her head. I am no electrical engineer and continually amazed at your knowledge Brian. Your troubleshooting skills are off the charts. Great episode though and fingers crossed that it all comes together and works perfectly.
Bill Dapp
2024-11-01 13:21:19 +0000 UTCGreat work you two, love the show
Currawong
2024-11-01 13:15:51 +0000 UTC
