Asylum Story Timeline

Just putting a note here to say that "yes" I have read this and that I do think this is the general direction we'll go. Working on it.

American McGee

i like this it really helped me understand the way the story of asylum will be told.

Lucas Severin

I appreciate that

I think the Caterpillar factors in significantly to the plot per what this timeline shows. It’s tough to have much of an opinion on it because I don’t know anything at all about how Caterpillar is being used in the story in the way it is already written. I wish I had more information about that, then maybe I would have more to say. But as it is, your concept sounds good.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

I wrote my comment independently from even knowing this was posted. Regardless, I see I am attuned to the Octochicken wavelength. And I think its safe to say that I agree with these comments.

RedBreloom

Anything you like to input abiut my concept? Lucky?

Yes I'm aware of this. I was joking. However it inspired my idea lol

The Caterpillar in ice concept art was done before there was anything written yet. It was just done to get the ball rolling. They were coming up with all kinds of crazy things that might not necessarily end up in the game.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

I honestly think that Joey's drawing of caterpillar trapped under ice was like a vision of future events for the game lol i think it works in the scheme of the story thus far! Also his character has been virtually non existant which is unusual for him. But hopefully it's something the finds its way into the narrative:)

I am always in favor of ice levels and stuff that plays with conceptions of time. I am also curious to see where the caterpillar lands in all this...

I love this visual representation of the story! I'm even more excited to see it all written out! also just curious saw Caterpillar written in their. Does that mean his presence hangs over the game in one way or another?I think him and his garden should be a big part of the realm of Acceptance. The Queen of Hearts has him frozen so he can never utter the words that would make Alice understand her true journey. That the jabborwock is a false trial. That her true Quest is beyond that world. So when she enters his garden everything is stopped in time. Not so much ICE frozen. And she must restart the clock.(but if it was Ice frozen perhaps a wand made of fire could be of some use here?)I could also see other characters (who have knowledge of young Alice's delicate state knowing how they will disappear once the wonderglobe shatters)all turn up their noses when Alice mentions Caterpillar. He is a wise oracle speaking only the truth so naturally everyone would want him dead or gone. Alice would say "but what about Caterpillar? He's disagreeable for sure but perhaps he would have something wise to say on the subject?" Then all the characters would say "oh pahh! What does that oversized worm know anyhow!" Leaving Alice bewildered then eventually suspicious. So perhaps in a way all of the wonderglobe characters had a way of smothering him! They all came together and put the Squeeze on the Tattle tale. So Alice is left without answers or the truth its all lies and riddles! But anyways I hope you like this. I just thiught it would work well in the world being built here!

Honestly I had never even considered the timeframe problem, which may even make a better case for why the attempt should not happen prior to the beginning of the game.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

And talking purely narratively, the player wont have the benefit of this timeline necessarily, so it may be downright confusing for players that aren’t like us, following the game’s production. If the attempt happens in real-time for Child Alice somewhere midway or towards the end, then all it takes is a bit of dialogue explaining, “What you have seen until now were memories. This is happening right now, and now time is quickly running out.”

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

And I agree with you 100% on this. The importance of this point, that “In a way, the suicide is what fixed her, and that’s a problem”, cannot be understated.

Karolina Belomestnova

Putting aside any moral issues that may be present with the current presentation of the narrative, wouldn't this also make the story's flow really weird on a meta level? Like, smoke inhalation doesn't take that long to kill you. Which would mean that the entire story would take place in like, under an hour in real time? Even if we didn't know this from our player perspective at the time that just feels... off? Like Wonky Wonderland Time(tm) is a thing but that just feels much weirder and much less impactful? Like, when the player gets clued into the story's timeline, there may be the question of "did this whole story take place in 5 minutes?" Which would make it feel kind of arbitrary in a way? And/or that Alice was somehow legit speedrunning the 7 stages of grief. which probably isn't a good look for a story attempting to portray the long term effects of trauma and PTSD on someone. And I think this also puts the 'romanticization of suicide' concerns into better perspective. Though I don't think the game would put 'killing myself is a cheatcode for fixing all my problems' across. It might not actually be doing the story many favors either. Also +2 for Shadow Alice making a comeback. She'd work even better for this version of the story.

RedBreloom

I want to clear up some possible confusion about my stance. I am pro suicide being a subject in the game. While I was initially among those taken aback by its inclusion, I fairly quickly saw the merit. And I’m not saying we should shy away from it or dance around it either. Let me be clear, Alice should attempt suicide in this game. So why did I have a back and forth with American? Because I feel like there is a small but important distinction we need to make. It’s acceptable to me that Alice’s mind activates to save itself once she has resolved to kill herself, that Child Alice’s journey has already begun pre-attempt. However, if the actual attempt is what awakens Child Alice, then in a way, the suicide is what fixed her. Do you now see my problem? So all I am suggesting is that in the point in the story in which we learn Adult Alice has made the attempt on her life, we are not seeing a memory of something that already happened and Alice has been dying the whole game, but rather Child Alice can actually witness the attempt as it is happening. This is both a better way to frame it and it’s actually narratively cleaner and easier to communicate to the player as well.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

I completely agree on the timeframe thing. How long would such smoke suffocation even take? Somewhere between an hour and a day, I’d assume. That’s not enough time for a journey, but just enough time for the climax. Defeating Jabberwocky didn’t help, and now Wonderland is collapsing and drowning in smoke. I think that Shadow Alice is growing inside Adult Alice, and is the manifestation of the despair/self-doubt/trauma that leads to suicide. And for the actual attempt, it erupts. As for the end-point... I assume that fighting Shadow Alice is the climax, the finale, and yes, reuniting/accepting her is the end goal. I suddenly got a cool idea. What if there is a New Game+ mode, and now Shadow Alice is unlocked as an ability? You turn into shadow/smoke to access previously inaccessible locations and secrets. Some things that can only be reached with the Shadow. Or a Challenge Mode that’s all about Shadow Alice. Similar to “Steel Soul” mode in Hollow Knight, or “Bindings” in the Godhome DLC for that game. Sealing some of the abilities/lowering HP/adding a time limit, all with the power of Shadow. So that the reunion is meaningful even after the finale.

Karolina Belomestnova

This brings up a couple questions for me on two points: -Shadow Alice: What role is Shadow Alice playing in the story now? Is she a manifestation of self-doubt/surrender/entropy? Is her reunion with Child and Adult the end point for her? -Suicide: Is the intent that, at least chronologically speaking, the suicide attempt by Adult Alice kicks off the Child breaking free of Denial and is the start of adventure? Regarding the timing of the suicide attempt my thoughts right now on are less a moral opposition to “romanticizing” it but more that it makes the window of time the Child has to go through her entire journey so small and reduces the scope of the story. Though I can see that time may flow differently in Wonderland, it just feels a bit like suggesting trauma can be overcome rather quickly. From the standpoint of intimating the length and depth of trauma, I would suggest that the Child goes through a significant part of her journey before the Adult tries to kill herself. Via “memories”/flashbacks we could see the life of the Adult spiraling into a point missing all self-love, using imagery that would create a sense of dread and unease (she plays with the flue, the letter opener passes across her wrist as she returns it to the table, etc) while tracking the passage of time (a calendar on the wall, the trees outside turning yellow and then snow falling – and perhaps timing it to the anniversary of the fire could allow for more ash/snow imagery). That way, both journeys (the Child’s for Acceptance and the Adult’s for self-destruction) could come to a climax at the same time, ratcheting up the tension in the endgame.

Yes, this. The suicide attempt is not the inciting incident, but the climax. Adult Alice in reality cries “Enough!!!” and shuts the floo, and then the mortified Child Alice confronts the smokey Shadow Alice in Wonderland. The inciting incident and the intro scene of reality could be something milder, like considering it, maybe even taking a step, but going back and not doing it.

Karolina Belomestnova

Wait... if, like Lucky suggested, Shadow Alice represents all the suicidal thoughts, and lingers in the background throughout the whole game... She should be especially visible in the Caterpillar scenes, more so than anywhere else in game. So we can see her growing darker, and darker, more defined... Also, she should fluctuate between child and adult shapes, I think. Because these thoughts have always been in the background of her mind for poor Alice. And then, the battle with Shadow Alice is the actual attempt, like I wrote earlier in another comment. Shadow Alice at peak power and peak despair.

Karolina Belomestnova

Well it’s true that those voices of people we have interacted with leave the impression. It’s still our own mind that fills it.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

Then again... Often, the voices that we hear in our head are in fact not our own. It may sound like us, but it’s actually things said by parents, grandparents, friends, teachers, lovers, other important people... It’s important to recognize where the voice is yours, and where it isn’t.

Karolina Belomestnova

And in the aftermath of the battle... All three Alices join hands in a circle, hug and merge. Because the Darkness is never truly gone. It stays with you, always. Embrace your Shadow.

Karolina Belomestnova

Then... Maybe breaking Adult Alice free from the Shadow is Phase 1 of the boss battle? And after that is done, Adult Alice can bring her logic and reasoning in addition to Child Alice’s emotion and wonder to combat the suicidal despair. That can grow and spiral out of proportion... Inner Adult and Inner Child fighting side-by-side.

Karolina Belomestnova

Here. The Famethyst. Has spoilers for season 4 or 5, I don’t quite remember. https://youtu.be/7v3DtmiOHKs

Karolina Belomestnova

I’m thinking the voices would be modulated as a way to hide that it is the same actress.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

Oooh, that sounds like a great idea. Wouldn’t it mesh with the actual dialogue then? Then again... Steven Universe has Gems of the same kind (Amethysts, Pearls, Rubies etc.) voiced by the same actress, and they sound pretty distinct. Lemme find an example...

Karolina Belomestnova

I had a thought about the voices we might hear in the game, the Choir of the Mind. Karolina’s comment inspired me to think of this. Whomever ends up voicing Alice, be it Susan or someone else, all the voices should be performed by the same actress. They are Alice’s inner voices after all. The ones encouraging her to kill herself can be modulated or performed in way that would be identical to Shadow Alice’s voice.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

There have been a few people who have suggested similar ideas as to what Shadow Alice represents, so you are definitely not alone on that thought process! Not sure if American has seen/commented on that idea yet.

I had suggested something similar a number of Patreon posts back, that Shadow Alice is the result of adult Alice’s self doubt and desire to give up, and in a way Shadow Alice could represent the suicide itself. I also suggested both the adult and child versions of Alice would have to come together to stop her.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

I... have a friend that’s been considering suicide at some point in the past. And we recently had a falling out where she tried to push me away really hard, saying “I’m not worth it, I’m a lost cause, please spend your resources somewhere else!” I didn’t agree, of course, and tried to fight it, fight for her, and eventually she just blocked me on social media. And later she unblocked me, we made up and she apologized, saying: “It’s sometimes really hard to hear reason through all the static in my head”. Static... or smoke? Sometimes bad thoughts are like a trainwreck. It’s speeding along, it’s going, it’s flying, but you just can’t stop it... Not with your bare hands.

Karolina Belomestnova

As the game goes on, Adult Alice’s clothing and appearance becomes more ragged, sooty and embery... While Child Alice seems to be growing stronger from every encounter. And in the realization moment, when the reality of her situation comes crushing down on her, the smoke erupts from Adult Alice, and she becomes the Shadow.

Karolina Belomestnova

Wait... OMG, what if Shadow Alice *is* the suicide attempt?! The blackened, despaired, smokey version of Alice that is ready to off herself, completely sunken into despair? Who needs some sense beaten into her to break her from that trance, and once the smokey shell is broken and Adult Alice is lying there defeated, Child Alice can reach out and take her hand and lift her up? American, please see this!

Karolina Belomestnova

Oooh, I really love this timeline! I haven’t watched the stream yet, but the image is really good and explains the story nicely! I wonder how the caterpillar connection works... I imagine it like this: the Caterpillar is in some fog-filled place, sitting on its giant mushroom, smoking the hookah, and Alice is talking to him. And the scene keeps switching angles and alternating between Child and Adult Alice, like, every other sentence. They’re in the same place, sort of, and the dialogue is semi-connected between the two of them, but the Alices are completely unaware of each other’s existence. ... wait. And as the story progresses, the fog grows darker. And darker. It is not fog. It’s smoke. I effing love this.

Karolina Belomestnova

this looks like a good opportunity for a dream within a dream (inception) moment since alice is two layers deep. you know, like when you think you’ve woken up from a nightmare, but realize you’re still dreaming. because she can “wake up” from wonderland into the asylum, but then eventually realize (as an adult) that she’s still dreaming in the asylum. there’s also the opportunity for a freaky psychological moment as young alice realizes that years have already passed and her childhood has already gone (something like this happens unfortunately to amnesiacs in real life. not like in the stories where they can’t remember the past, but more commonly where they can’t form new memories and have to stare into the mirror at their 60 year face when they think they’re 20)

Looking good. Glad for all the good news so far, hoping to hear lots more good news as well!

Happy to see so much continued good news and progress!

Could not the story be structured in a way in which adult Alice’s feelings toward suicide is what calls child Alice subconsciously into action? And then the attempt could actually happen the moment that she becomes aware of it? I would feel 1000 times more comfortable with that.

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’

You need to look at these like trains... they all leave the station at the same time... but you're on the way that says "Gameplay starts here..." so you don't see and aren't aware of the suicide attempt until later in the game. That attempt will appear, like the other "memories" Alice collects, at a later point in the game.

American McGee

So would the confrontation with shadow Alice be like fighting Alice with abilities/items from previous games? 🤔

Now American, didn’t you say last night that the attempt would be midway through the game? So is this outdated?

Lucky Dragon ‘She.They’