Critique Has Become Consensus | Megalopolis Vs. Joker 2
Added 2024-10-22 06:50:41 +0000 UTCIn today's episode I discuss my ever-growing frustration with the current state of commercial art critique and how I think critics these days, in both film and video games, are fundamentally diverging away from their roles as a counterbalancing force against basic mass appeal as the driving incentive for commercial art and helping to shape and elevate appreciation for more unique and abstracted creations. Instead film and games all seem to be only assessed on the basis of how likely they are to appeal to the already established tastes of the general audience. A perfect example of this shortcoming is the almost identical reception that both Megalopolis and Joker 2 received in terms of critical evaluation. Both films are not delivering what is expected by general moviegoers, but in my opinion one of the films is doing something genuinely interesting and creatively unique and the other is a poorly composed vanity piece (let's see if you can guess which is which based on the description ha).
So, I go ahead and share not only my thoughts on what I view the role of the critic to be, but also my specific analysis and evaluation of these two films, which I think is a fun exercise :-)
THANK YOU AGAIN everyone for supporting the channel, it's only because of the patrons right now I am able to continue working in a full-time capacity and I sincerely appreciate your support.
Sincerely,
Mark
Comments
Man.. I am so thrilled to have found your channel! I TOTALLY agree with you on Megalopolis. I thought I was the only one. And you’re absolutely right in your critique of film and game criticism… I would kill for a magazine written by real critics like yourself who aren’t afraid to go against the grain and really tell it how they see it (whether or not I happen to agree with them or not). No damn scores! Just in-depth, well reasoned and informed critiques.
Dani
2025-07-04 23:58:09 +0000 UTCYou mentioned the obsession with nazis and germany. Its all because of the foundation myth and its collapsing at the moment.
Gustavo Sanchez
2025-06-26 15:39:07 +0000 UTCI'm really hoping for a commentary. Coppola was clearly having a great time messing with the medium.
Tim French
2024-11-02 01:40:08 +0000 UTCUpdate!! It looks like I will be covering blue revolver double action next month so that will be an awesome Shmup vid!
The Electric Underground
2024-10-31 21:23:23 +0000 UTCHey that s great! I just listened to it and read the lyrics, yes it s very similar to what I was talking about in the ep about this usage of the value of art being heavily linked to it s commercial appeal (if I understand the song correctly)
The Electric Underground
2024-10-31 21:22:34 +0000 UTCMe neither! It s out next month which is crazy how fast things release after being in theaters ha. I hope there is some kind of blu ray with commentary
The Electric Underground
2024-10-31 21:20:49 +0000 UTCHey Mark, I think you’ll like this song if you dont already https://youtu.be/icgFjJjkP8s?si=lIPh5CprAN_TkytX
Danny Abbasi
2024-10-31 19:34:48 +0000 UTCMegalopolis was kino. Can't wait to get it on video.
Tim French
2024-10-29 19:24:06 +0000 UTCAwesome!! Sounds good man.
Chase Palumbo
2024-10-29 02:21:58 +0000 UTCOh I think Burgess was speaking in terms of theme and character arc, he actually may have used the word fable not short story. Anyway, here's something to piss you off if you didn't see it haha. https://comicbookmovie.com/sci_fi/star-wars/major-studios-are-assembling-superfan-focus-groups-in-an-effort-to-combat-online-backlash-a213690
Jake G
2024-10-28 20:42:11 +0000 UTCYeah absolutely, especially because a lot of older retro gaming youtube was much more about collecting the games than playing or reviewing them in a proper sense. So the reviews that they do, so to say, are more like back of the box descriptions of the games for collectors, rather than an analysis of the game overall.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-28 20:33:49 +0000 UTCOh yes there is a whole larger conversation to be had around comic book movies and super hero movies, as there are plenty of genuine fun ones in a pulpy way, like the earlier batman films, the nolan films, and Sam Raimi spider man. What i'm referring to is the current marvel machine driven super hero movies where they studio has scientifically chopped up a specific formula and is applying much more of a TV model of mass creation of content than a true film making process. This is why I agree with Scorsese that these marvel movies aren't films in a proper sense, I think they are all essentially high budget TV episodes.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-28 20:32:26 +0000 UTCThanks for the reply and I will definitely eventually see Mega. I just doubled checked and the DP for Txixt was the same for PT Anderson’s 70mm film The Master so I don’t know. Maybe it was the below the line who were the students 🤷♂️ But now here’s a new movie about an architect that I’m definitely seeing in theaters https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6d7yU379Ur0&pp=ygUVdGhlIGJydXRhbGlzdCB0cmFpbGVy
Ian Chaurero
2024-10-28 20:30:05 +0000 UTCOh this is fantastic additional info Jake. Yeah, Todd saying he's turning to drama because comedy is hard to be made these days is probably a way to talk around the larger point that dramatic superhero stories are much more Profitable and easier to get studio backing for ha, vs a comedy that is really hard to get backing for these days. That's interesting you bring up Dune Messiah because I have read and really enjoy the first dune novel (and have seen the film adaptations) but have always been afraid to continue reading the books after that out of fear they'll start to degrade in quality ha. I'll have to give Messiah a read though and see what I think, hopefully it's pulled off well. And yes! the adding of the final chapter later on in a clockwork sounds familiar! I knew it was something like that where it was kind of a weird addition or change or edit of some kind. I don't buy that the extra chapter was added to fill out the page length though -- as the writer claims -- ha, coincidentally in the quest to increase the page length he also just happens to shift the whole tone and meaning of the story, rather than just peppering in some additional scenes throughout the book which would make way more sense if it was about just page length.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-28 20:29:19 +0000 UTCThat sounds really interesting! yes I'll have to check them out because I'd love to see what other people outside the gaming world think about these subjects.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-28 20:18:55 +0000 UTCYES, especially because these numbered scores can be manipulated in a way that written reviews cannot. Like how recently steam took down a bunch of "off topic" tekken 8 reviews and changed the steam rating score for a little while (I think it's fallen back down though). Numbers are much more easy to manipulate without notice than written reviews.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-28 20:18:19 +0000 UTCyeah catching Mega in theatres was near impossible ha, since it had crazy limited showings even when it was in theaters (like in middle the day and stuff). Like I say in the ep it's not a masterpiece or anything, but yeah I did find it interesting and enjoyed it. I can only imagine how bad those experimental films like twixt ended up being, since I think he said he had students work on them or something? Who knows maybe I'm in a more generous mood with Mega than i would normally be, but I did enjoy the film maybe it hit me at the right time in the right frame of mind ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-28 20:15:31 +0000 UTCYes! I am gonna do Dodonpachi early nov and then I'm gonna tackle Angel at Dusk next month as well
The Electric Underground
2024-10-28 20:12:00 +0000 UTCSorry this is off topic but are there more shmup reviews coming? Can’t wait to listen to this episode though!
Chase Palumbo
2024-10-28 04:28:05 +0000 UTCSorry but I failed to see both movies because I was meditating for 20days in a pagoda. And yet even if I was not I’m not sure if I would have seen either. After all I didn’t even see the first Joker until it was on streaming so why see the lesser sequel now? And as for Megalopolis? You know I really hope it has the qualities that you, and some others speak of, but I have seen Youth Without Youth, Tetro and Twixt. The first was his self proclaimed return to passion filmmaking and it failed. The second was the best of the three but I couldn’t watch it a second time. The third? It might still be on Amazon Prime and it’s god awful. I even met the “supervising sound editor” who brought up the topic on his own and who said he hated the film. And yet I still hope Megalopolis has value yet forgive me if I stayed home, or honestly that I was in a pagoda for 20days. FYI since you said you enjoy musicals. The director of Brandon Lee’s The Crow and Dark City is days away from shooting a musical based on the sci-fi play R.U.R. (Rossum's Universal Robots) the work that coined the term robot. And while the track record of this director, Alex Proyas, has been lacking I have researched and interacted with him enough to know it’s due to studio interference. And yet if it still fails? I guess I’ll give him three strikes much as I have Coppola. PS Alex Proyas is currently on patreon for $2 a month and you may find his insights into filmmaking enlightening. I know I have and I just got out of a pagoda meditating for 20days.
Ian Chaurero
2024-10-25 05:18:32 +0000 UTCI agree that number scores aren't a very good way to judge art. The qualities of almost all art is multidimensional, and a number grade is one dimensional. An album for example can have a bunch of qualities, and based on those you can say whether you like it, based on whether those qualities are the same that you look for. I know what Unlike, so I almost entirely disregard other people's opinions on music, though those bulk review scores of rateyourmusic can still be useful.
HPPrinter
2024-10-24 20:58:53 +0000 UTCanother great talk... the work of Theodor Adorno and his writings on what he called the "culture industry" might interest you in regards to this topic
Florida sucks
2024-10-24 16:56:02 +0000 UTCGood stuff! I recall reading a Todd Phillips quote before the first Joker came out. He was asked why he was turning to drama after directing a bunch of comedies, and he replied because you can't make comedy these days with everyone getting offended blah blah standard Seinfeld shit. That comment plus neverending comic book movie ennui kept me from seeing Joker or its sequel, but I've seen several clips and reviews. Your point about Joker 2 trying to reverse the character arc is interesting. Reminds me of Dune Messiah. Frank Herbert put out Dune, hugely successful, but he was concerned audiences missed his point. Paul is not a hero. Paul should not be emulated. Dune Messiah was the true end of the story. Was not received nearly as well. Seems like Todd Phillips had a similar reaction. Joker 2 feels like him hammering home the point that the Joker should not be praised! Maybe both men should've emphasized that earlier. Anthony Burgess tacked on that final chapter of Clockwork Orange as a later addition because he felt that without a character that grows, it is not a novel but a short story. Should've kept it a long short story then.
Jake G
2024-10-23 23:11:06 +0000 UTCI enjoyed them when I've seen them at first, but probably wouldn't like them much now. Too drab and gray for my taste. I'm such a fraud though, I haven't even seen Tim Burton's Batman yet, which'll probably be right up my alley
Андрей Лыков
2024-10-23 18:41:16 +0000 UTCMakes me wonder how you feel about the Nolan Batman movies. Which certainly have their merits, but don’t engage with the artifice at all. I think James Gunn is much better at that approach.
SegFault
2024-10-23 17:43:48 +0000 UTCThe way to make superhero stuff good, imo, is fully engage in the artifice of it
Андрей Лыков
2024-10-23 13:29:41 +0000 UTCI think super hero movies could be artistic in a pulpy way, in the way a lot of great comics by Jack Kirby, John Buscema and the like were. It's just that the form of a superhero movie is already established and nobody wants to mess with it, cause it prints money. Before that we had some cool movies that experimented with the style, like 90s Dick Tracy, with its commitment to color design in adhering to limited amount of colors that could be printed on newspapers in its set design.
Андрей Лыков
2024-10-23 13:26:29 +0000 UTCI was looking forward to this one and you absolutely smashed it for sure
RiffMason
2024-10-22 21:10:56 +0000 UTCWhen you were talking about reviewers not even playing the games they review; it made me laugh. I’ve watched a couple of Metal Jesus videos on YouTube and I’ve told myself “This guy clearly hasn’t even played the game he’s taking about” but alas MJR isn’t for people like me. It’s for gaming normies who don’t care.
RipTheJacker
2024-10-22 19:53:23 +0000 UTCYeah, World War 2 is such an historical touchstone for almost everyone. Certainly everyone in the western world. It would be nice if a film could be made that harkens back to The Crisis of the Third Century, or The Five Good Emperors. But not many know Roman history even superficially.
SegFault
2024-10-22 18:11:22 +0000 UTCThat's a great point because the problem with the whole backlash with joker 2 is that yeah, it's not very well done, but then on the other hand people will give a lot of the really poor marvel stuff (like age of ultron) perfectly acceptable scores. So how does that make sense? Because yes if it came down to seeing this movie or age of ultron, it's still better to watch Joker 2 flail at some misguided attempt at depth vs a film that strategically has no depth to begin with. It's like a weird instance of grading on a curve where my curve of Cinema with a capital C is gonna be higher than all the mainstream reviewers trashing Joker 2, but they are gonna give it a poor review as well because it doesn't give them the fast-food type of experience either. So it's getting double pincered in that sense. But on the other hand, I think it's important as a critic to not be reactionary to other critics for the sake of that weird overlap that can sometimes happen as well. This is why numbered scores should be eliminated. Because if there are no numbers than you as the reader would be able to understand the difference between a review that's critical on the grounds of composition, vs a review that is giving the movie 1 star just because it even attempts to be a musical ha. I guess the key difference is that Joker 2 is at least interesting enough for me to give it a try, where I outright just ignore age of ultron type of stuff. So if Joker 2 is looking interesting to you, def go give it a watch and see what you think. You might pull something out of it that you appreciate despite the problems with the structure and the writing. It's not the worst movie I've ever seen or anything, just really falling short of its ambitions for sure.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-22 18:08:42 +0000 UTCYes consensus can sometimes be a perfectly fine indicator of quality, especially with art that is just classically very polished and well developed (which I appreciate and strive for). But I think the problem we've really run into is that the base standard for quality has really bottomed and narrowed, so we've developed the pallet of children when it comes to art. Like how kids can't eat too many spices or unusual dishes, we're like that with art now ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-22 18:00:30 +0000 UTCYes it's a very zen-like analogy isn't it ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-22 17:58:13 +0000 UTCI'm glad you enjoyed the ep Riff! Yes I have stepped up the production of the podcast eps a bit and from this point forward I'm gonna have them be this polished, or try my best to have them this way ha. I thought you'd enjoy the ep since I remember you asking me my thoughts on Joker 2, so I thought of you while I recorded ha.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-22 17:57:54 +0000 UTCYes, I'm the same type of guy with my IRL friends as well. Where I'm a hater on a lot of the stuff they like (Guilty Gear Strive and so forth) and then keep recommending them stuff they don't even want to consider playing like Resi 5 mercs ha. And yes at scale it's def an uncomfortable feeling. If you go back and revisit the patreon podcast ep with Boghog about Stellar Blade and the backlash I got for that review, I discuss how these days I have to employ defensive strats to protect my mind like proactively avoiding comments and stuff like that.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-22 17:56:41 +0000 UTCYes I am! I find that period of history extremely interesting. I also really have a lot of interest in the French Revolution but it seems that whenever we get any sort of historical media these days, it always has to relate back to Germany, even if it doesn't make sense. Dune 2 for example removed all the roman influence from House Hark (the Barron is clearly some kind of Roman Caligula type) and the Ridley Scott Napoleon movie ... oh my god ha. Joker 2 is probably better than Napolean and that's saying something.
The Electric Underground
2024-10-22 17:53:38 +0000 UTCMark, a fellow Romanophile? I would never have guessed! Need more media (including video games) set in Rome.
SegFault
2024-10-22 17:49:50 +0000 UTCI seem to be more critical of the games I play and even though I'm positive about most of the games I tend to bring some points of criticism with friends when discussing these games, most of the time I'm getting kind of attacked and being labeled as a hater lmao. Can't imagine what it feels like putting your opinion out there to everyone, I don't blame some critics for just staying in line and doing "their job" but I respect guys like you that take their role more seriously and are not afraid to put their points of criticism or even label something as bad and stand by your opinion.
Trick_DX
2024-10-22 12:04:55 +0000 UTCI think this has been one of your most enjoyable and interesting episodes yet, super interesting comparison between the two films. It's pretty baffling for the Joker 2 film to be so unthought through. To me specifically it's especially baffling that they thought they he could just from add musical and stir. Essay on musicals coming in! The thing all great musical have in common besides having great, often original compositions is that there is a clear compelling reason why it's a musical at all. The answer can even be superficial or have more depth but it's atleast got to be congruous with the mood of the film. Grease is its straightforwardly there to be feel good music to drive what is supposed to be a feel good plot of the film. In Chicago it makes sense to be a musical for the obvious reason that the film is actually about Roxy's wanting to be a musical star and her quest for celebrity. But beyond that, the film is about Roxy's complete willingness to turn her whole life, both private and public into a performance (to the extent that she even turns her life story into a lie!). That's why we as an audience can so easily accept her further turning her whole life into a musical too. This is one of the many reasons why Chicago is such a brilliant musical. The Joker 2 could have atleast succeeded as a musical if they'd actually had a clear and compelling psychological arc for the Joker and thoughtfully studied how they could represent this with music. Joaquin Phoenix seems to have a bit of a representation as intellectuals actor but that he thought that they could just add musical and stir and thought it would work because they threw lady gaga in the mix is about as deeply unthinking and unartistic motivation for a musical as you can have. Maybe I'm unfair on this but I can imagine them thinking how avante garde they were but I don't think they are anything like as distant from the marvel style of superhero films they almost certainly thought they were cleverly subverting with this film.
RiffMason
2024-10-22 11:59:49 +0000 UTCBe water my friend
shaderbunny
2024-10-22 09:10:22 +0000 UTCConsensus is a good thing if it's what 'U' like. Our issue is the 'clique' is really not all that clicky. In fact the snappy fingers generally belong to profit oriented boards pandering to control oriented governments. Creativity is active stifled. Cool stuff constrained under copyrights owned by disenfranchised scuttle butt's. IMHO.
Taze Roiu
2024-10-22 08:00:57 +0000 UTCMaybe I'm dumb, but by the trailers I've seen some time ago, Joker 2 looked kinda interesting in terms of color design and staging, maybe it's stupid, but at least it looks watchable unlike most of the things today. Megalopolis also looks very good of course.
Андрей Лыков
2024-10-22 06:54:09 +0000 UTC
