No Country For Edgy Teenagers - Electric After Dark Podcast!
Added 2022-12-11 03:03:16 +0000 UTCI provide cutting edge coverage of the 2022 game awards and share my thoughts on if dedicating energy to learning a game for years is a waste of time or if there are hidden benefits.
Comments
What an awesome comment my friend! I'm really glad you enjoyed this ep, because the internet is absolutely warping people's perceptions of what matters and is so strongly bent towards turning people into reactionaries rather then being more open minded, one way or another. Yeah the economy of social media tmz style judging and pettiness is absolutely toxic, it turns people's lives into this ugly gossip economy that destroys any hint of empathy or human connection.
The Electric Underground
2023-03-24 17:29:58 +0000 UTCThis episode was fire. Very cathartic to hear your breakdown on the over-exagerations that happen on social media. The festering... It's a blight on our culture, IMO. People blowing things out of proportion, suffering imagined troubles. I was kinda into reading and listening to some social commentary stuff for a while and finally realized, "this shit is toxic!" It's a relief to tune out and just focus on things in my local community. And also to just have my own opinion about things (which is typically chill) without reading the anger online. I also liked the HS stories. I was really into Day of Defeat: Source in HS and dressed as a zombie Wehrmacht soilder with a red armband for Halloween. Uh, yeah, it was pretty edgy and got some responses. Can't imagine what attention that would bring today. The emphasis on sensitivity today is very strong. I would appreciate just a little more understanding for people's desire to be subversive, to play with things that are culturally sensitive, to poke fun. That sort of expression is also valuable.
Arcade Hell
2023-03-23 21:47:04 +0000 UTCI agree climby! In fact I have been doing more reading myself and yes the active process of ingesting media is pretty important and I think it would be healthy if we all engaged in it more, rather than passively playing games or passively watching films (as much as I love film)
The Electric Underground
2022-12-27 17:28:11 +0000 UTCexactly kriegor, it's honestly pretty pathetic. The gaming industry is trying so hard to be hollywood lol.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-27 17:23:30 +0000 UTCThe "game" awards have categories for, and I'm not making those up, narration, artistic direction, music, sound design, dubbing, emotional impact, conveyed message... and they have none for gameplay, level design, replayability, challenge, pacing... It's a joke. Video games seen through the prism of a cinephile as a sub-genre of cinema.
Kriegor
2022-12-27 12:26:51 +0000 UTCI feel there’s some crossover between reading in general and playing a game or a group of games. The distinction between activity and passivity in our media usage sounds likes a really interesting topic to me!
Climby_coyote
2022-12-27 01:23:18 +0000 UTCKind of like that shmup design document boghog did?
wabbylegs
2022-12-14 21:28:01 +0000 UTCExactly wabby! You are a wise one my friend :-) I've learned a ton of skills running this youtube channel that have actually translated over to my real life job a number of times. My fav one was that they needed to cut together this promotional video and I was like, "Oh I can edit video" and they were blown away since I obviously spend so much of my time editing videos these days lol. Also sure! I am HEAVILY considering writing a book about my theory and philosophy of arcade/action game design, as I think it's obviously a set of ideas I talk about a lot on the channel. Would make sense to have them written down formally (I hope). Really the only thing that would put me off doing so is lack of interest.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-14 16:48:48 +0000 UTCThe bananamatic story was great and it's a shame he felt like he was wasting time. If you feel that way because "no one cares about it" then you need to step back and ask yourself whether you were doing this for others or for yourself. I always think to myself on how I'd respond if someone told me that video games aren't a hobby. All I'd have to do is tell them what I've learned: I've learned how to build computers which led to my career. I've learned how to solder cause of fighting games (back in the padhack days of making your own stick), learned how to edit videos and stream due to shmups. Hell I did my first romhack because I wanted to play Recca without the annoying (and potentially dangerous) flashes. And guess what, I just checked and 175 people have downloaded the patch which means I helped others out there. It really makes you realize that if you are truly into something you absolutely do gain something out of it. Just getting that 2-ALL or a massive score helped you gain insight into your own abilities and learn how to tackle problems like you said. Also how can you keep mentioning this secret project that's taking priority over House of Bullets without giving a hint as to what it is? We can keep a secret :)
wabbylegs
2022-12-14 08:01:48 +0000 UTCI get it. And yeah that's why I'd like to see you doing more on the development side of things as you move forward. I think you have a good eye for details and maybe going a layer deeper than most people. You really seem to understand mechanics at a better level than most people I've come across in dev. I almost never pay attention to gamedev chatter anymore because I just don't find many developers are busy innovating in terms of important foundational concepts, or identifying key mechanics, creating satisfying hooks, etc. Most of my recent useful gamedev ideas I've absorbed have actually come from your videos, for example the credit/continue/checkpoint system has been something I've ear-marked for thinking more about as I develop my game. I heard you talk about it mostly when referencing Zero Ranger, I believe. I was surprised I didn't even pay much attention to that aspect, even as I consider myself OCD about mechanics, but as you say it obviously better serves a different era for a totally different purpose. On that note, curious about the "interim/sideline" gamedev idea you were talking about, and if you have a plan for getting into dev more over the longhaul. I think you'd be great for it.
NeonDaggerGames
2022-12-13 04:28:15 +0000 UTCExactly my friend! Like of the 3 discussed above, the Beatles and Nirvana were insanely influential. Ironically the beatles influenced Nirvana which in turn Nirvana influenced all emo bands I grew up listening and liking so much :-) Whereas what musician was influenced by Bob Dylan? Probably lyrically that could be argued but musically I think that's a very small slice of people ha. Funny enough though, I can actually tie this all back to my thoughts and theories on game critique. One issue that we face with the shmup genre (and i know you've ran head long into it on discord like myself) is that we take our influences that are undoubtedly great, like CAVE and Raizing, and we put them on a pedestal to the point where we can't analyze their flaws and try to improve on some of their ideas. For example, continue systems. The credit feeding continuation systems that we see in all the CAVE and Raizing ports made sense in the arcade era, but in the PC / Console era, those systems need to be adapted to make sense in the new setting. There's a lot of stuff like that actually :-)
The Electric Underground
2022-12-12 17:22:51 +0000 UTCNo I'm right with you on that. I always found it disturbing how people can lose critical thinking so easily, just because they connect with something on a personal level. People seem wired to get into cult'y modes. Can be with bands, politicians, the corporations they work for. I'm always creeped out by how quickly people can lose any sense of objectivity. I've been around music my whole life and the Bob Dylan thing has always mystified me. I think I tried a few times to see what people were on about and couldn't genuinely get there. I think his actual measurable influence is well below where his cultural status would lead you to believe. That whole folky, story telling, non-singing thing just didn't go far beyond his narrow time period. He certainly seems hyper-elevated by the crowd he connected with originally, and kind of seems to have lived off of the fumes of that.
NeonDaggerGames
2022-12-12 04:48:35 +0000 UTCOh what an awesome comment neon! That story of you kicking all the gear was great ha. I m sure it was a fine line of bringing the energy vs not damaging the equipment ha. On the Cobain note, I think the comparison to John Lennon is really useful because the same thing I would say about Cobain I would say about Lennon. No doubt both were talented musicians, I would never deny that. But both also have this massive deity like place in our mainstream culture that I find nearly religious. When you critique John Lennon or a Beatles song, or Kurt cobain, it s like the principals of art or composition no longer apply to them. It s like smack talking the pope or something. Oh bob Dylan is the worst in this aspect too. I find his music absolutely grating and yet that can't be acknowledged because Dylan was some kind of counter culture poet. Maybe the guy was a poet, but Lord above he could not sing his way out of kindergarten class.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-12 02:08:02 +0000 UTCThis is pretty much where I'm at
Christopher Ladd
2022-12-12 00:24:21 +0000 UTCSo much great stuff here. I believe what you said about being used to thinking abstractly and breaking down systems. It totally is a product of getting those reps in with whatever it is you're doing, even the stuff that seems pointless to people from the outside looking in. It can be really difficult to express it, but it's usually obvious to me whether I'm actually getting anything useful out of an experience, or if I'm just coasting. About being a kid today. Yeah I always thought I'd be totally repulsed at the idea of getting older, but instead here I find myself just thankful I was able to experience a time that I had just assumed was a given, but I now see as having been a rare opportunity. I also did the angsty teen thing. I remember I put together a band and we did a show opening for these "established" guys in our city (they had like 100 whole fans!). They all looked like tall suburbanite versions of Glen Danzing circa The Misfits. Anyhow, here I was this quiet and weird guy setting up synths and cabs around their set. Our show starts and out of nowhere I become a fuckin maniac and kick over one of their cabinets and lose my damn mind. After our set I was nervous thinking these guys will be pissed and want a piece of me. As they come clopping towards me I see them staring at their shoes. I turned around I see one of them just prop up the downed amp, inspect it for a second and then just went on with the set. I was like, yeah this is a good deal. I can't stand up in Denny's and act like a total jackass, but here I can get it out of my system for some applause and a few scared sideways glances. Pretty good deal! Three or four of those experiences and I was like "ah... feel better now. Moving on..." I think that was probably Kurt's thing too, except when he was done with it all emotionally that was the time when he shot into the stratosphere. It must have been a real mismatch between where he was at in his head versus the world around him. I don't really know how people today look back at Nirvana and that time. For me it was a really obvious transformation at the exact perfect time to experience it. It wasn't so much the edgyness or punk vs pop, it was that it was this obvious break from the endless stream of bullshit. Even as kids we were thinking things were getting unbearably lame. I remember older kids were starting to really get into older bands like Zeppelin, Doors, etc. And sort of slowly you could see a tone shift was happening. Anyways, to me it really didn't fully tip over until Kurt showed up. And then it was an avalanche, so he kind of signified that shift. To my mind he very much was a sort of Lennon figure for that generation. Both knew how to string together words and melodies in the right way to produce a specific effect for the people of that time. They also took big risks when the easier choices where laid out in front of them. I think that's where the respect for authenticity really comes from. I certainly was around and in "underground" bands that automatically appeared to have more cred. As if being unlistenable is a great mark of authenticity. But none of these bands could have snapped their fingers and made an In Utero, let alone one song as strong as what appeared on that album. So, I don't know. To me Kurt was very human but also had some rare gifts that were perfectly aligned for a particular time and place. Now when I listen I just think it's incredibly well written music. He probably did compromise his vision to make Nevermind. And in some ways it was probably calculated and then only later half-heartedly regretted. It's hard to even know oneself from one moment to the next what motives are pure and which are pragmatic. I personally love how Nevermind sounds, but I'm sure he probably envisioned something closer to what In Utero ended up being. Who knows? He was a young guy working as a janitor (if he was even working!). For me it's all just a part of the story. And it's relatable because we all have to go through conflicting motives and contradictions. The whole idea of being pure and a perfect embodiment of some counter-culture ethos... yeah that just sounds naive. Maybe kids are deifying him now because nobody today seems to enter the mainstream through any significant amount of risk taking? Again I'm really not plugged in with how people are viewing that period from today. I lived it and that was enough for me!
NeonDaggerGames
2022-12-11 23:42:07 +0000 UTCAlien soldier is awesome! it's going to be fun to compare the two!! Also yeah the game awards are insanely lame, uber lame.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 21:10:24 +0000 UTCLooking forward to Alien Soldier, I played that game around this time last year and it rules. Also a comparison with Gunstar is a good idea and also just a logical progression. Also yeah, it feels like a cold take, but the Game Awards are just worthless and not even entertaining lol
CosmicCrown
2022-12-11 20:24:07 +0000 UTCOh yeah they can be used in a lot of different ways, even as mood stabilizers I think
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 19:56:54 +0000 UTCYeah I wonder what the charge would be? Disturbing the peace or something ha. In the end all the kid did was talk into the mic for a few seconds
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 19:55:44 +0000 UTCPerhaps reaching out to folks to define healthy, unhealthy, helpful, or even regretful use of game playing / gaming, since gaming can also be used as gambling.
JBRPG
2022-12-11 18:46:40 +0000 UTCAbsolutely great topic idea! Because this distinction comes up a lot and I don't think we have a vocabulary to define what is unhealthy vs healthy gaming behavior. Deep down we all recognize that there are ugly lines that can be crossed (like the counterstrike guy who lost his family and marriage from only playing the game) to something more in the middle. And then the question of what can be a positive example of gaming in someone's life that doesn't involve purely making money like streaming or selling games.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 17:20:37 +0000 UTCI wonder if you can do more of the topic of Good vs Bad video game habits since that deserves more public discussion. When a little boy and teenager, games were an escapism-based consumable experience and almost did not think twice. Only when I did take a game design degree in UCSC and growing desire to create instead of consuming games did I change my approach form passively playing games to analyzing the gameplay loop and decide how long I want to play before moving on. If nothing moves forward for a long time, I am out. If there is a pure gameplay loop that's easy to do, but mastering the common fundamentals, I am all for it. I tend to play Millipede and Joust 2 more often than Centipede and Joust due to increased variation of levels and enemy behaviors.
JBRPG
2022-12-11 16:09:15 +0000 UTCI think it's a really good and interesting comparison to draw really as it highlights that there are actually very strict and definite limits to tolerance of counter-culture and rebellion within corporate environments in general really. I greatly enjoy to see genuine disruptions of events like these myself too haha. That would be insane if that kid is going to be charged for what he did though.
RiffMason
2022-12-11 14:07:12 +0000 UTCexactly, and I personally really like pop music and enjoy mainstream music a lot. So to me saying nirvana was a mainstream band to me isn't that big of a deal. My favorite band is paramore after all. I mainly bring it up in this ep because essentially the industry was absolutely along for the ride and all their rebellious energy was part of the brand. So it creates a double standard that I don't think modern nirvana fans quiet pick up on. Nirvana troll an award show, awesome. Some random kid trying to follow that example, that kid is going to jail and his life is about to get rough for a while. Not that nirvana are directly linked, but its just important to understand how an industry plays into all of this.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 12:55:46 +0000 UTCthat sounds like a fun idea!
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 12:46:38 +0000 UTCP.S. Listening to the podcast, I think the world needs The Electric Underground videogames award this christmas!
RiffMason
2022-12-11 10:52:16 +0000 UTCYo, good to see the podcast back! Huge Nirvana fan checking in here, I initially started guitar largely because of Nirvana like many millions of teenagers out there ha. Just my own perspective ofcourse but I I do think you have a point that Nirvana weren't as counter-culture as they are often considered to be. Their songs were 3 and a half to 4 minute songs, with verse/chorus structures structured around short-bar hugely catchy melodies. To boot the guitar solo's are largely Xerox copies of the vocal melodies which is an insanely commercial approach to writing music outdoing even commercial rock by copying the trope of reiterating vocal melodies as an instrumental from commercial pop instead (which I nonetheless still love in Nirvana haha). Reading some of the biographies about Kurt Cobain gives further insight into just how commercially minded he was firstly, and how much his song writing was influenced by the Beatles, literally the biggest commercial band ever. On top of that and in regard to his lyrics, Kurt Cobain came up from a punk background, which has always been somewhat political really but given that Nirvana's songs are remarkably apolitical given the musical culture he came up through which I do think has to be considered in any conversation of whether something is counter-culture or not. Kurt was also a big Ramones fan and a big Clash fan, but Nirvana certainly don't have their own Bonzo Goes to Bitburg or Washington Bullets on Nevermind. Nothing wrong with that, and I absolutely love Nirvana, to the point that they are still one of my favourites bands to this day but them being counter-culture is definitely overblown sometimes. Kurt Cobain was definitely privately far more mindful of commercial appeal than he would often publicly admit in interviews and I think you can tell both with respect to his lyrics and music.
RiffMason
2022-12-11 10:49:54 +0000 UTCOh I was around for the nirvana explosion as well believe me, I even mentioned in the ep doing a nirvana cover during battle of the bands and smashing my guitar ha. My point though is that the media loved Cobain and just couldn't get enough of him, so this whole idea he was this rebel is actually part of branding. Read heavier than heaven, it s a really in depth biography about him and it covers how image conscious he was. So my point was that when Cobain trolled a reward show it helped him whereas this poor kid is gonna pay for this stunt probably a long time into the future.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 07:25:51 +0000 UTCNevermind came out when I was 14, and it changed the entire pop culture landscape. Is some of what he did contrived? Sure, but he also had a knack for singing very intensely personal lyrics and making them sound universal. I don't like celebrity worship either, I'm not trying to put him on a pedestal, he just seemed like on odd choice for your criticism.
Christopher Ladd
2022-12-11 06:34:08 +0000 UTCI have a lot to say about kurt Cobain, as much as I liked his music I think him being Turned into this saint-like figure is not great. Also if you read his biographies basically he was constantly steering the bands image the entire time, including the mix for nevermind and the later edits they did to in utero. The idea that he was this avante guard guy just isn't true
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 06:10:05 +0000 UTCI think your comments about Nirvana are a little misplaced though. Kurt was a genuinely weird and disturbed person. He committed suicide for f sake. Nevermind is a very commercial sounding album, by design of it's producer Butch Vig. But its lyrical content is definitely not mainstream. Kurt just happened to have a good ear for pop hooks.
Christopher Ladd
2022-12-11 04:34:02 +0000 UTCabsolutely my brother, if I could return my digital copy I would have. Ugh such a lame game.
The Electric Underground
2022-12-11 04:27:14 +0000 UTCGlad to see someone agrees that Mario Odyssey is massively overrated. Just a bland, boring generic slog.
Christopher Ladd
2022-12-11 04:15:22 +0000 UTC
