7th Day Electric EP 20: To Discord, or NOT to Discord, That is the Question
Added 2021-06-17 10:11:31 +0000 UTC
Comments
What an awesome comment! You're one of those smart mature young people aren't you ha. Yes so actually this ep has a bit of a sunny follow up where some of the isssues I brought up in discord have since improved! The zero-sum game is a great point.
The Electric Underground
2021-08-02 19:21:25 +0000 UTCJeez, I pressed Enter too early on the last comment while I was typing it out. Patreon please. So, hey Mark! I figured I'd make use of the 2 buck deposit I make every month and have been going back and listening to the 7th day podcasts since I have a need for background audio sometimes now. As a young'un (still have friends in highschool) and someone who's relatively new to the shmup community, it's pretty funny hearing about all the psychology behind drama and those involved in it, since I've seen it all too many times before. I've used Discord almost since its inception in 2015 (mostly for rhythm game tournaments), but honestly, I don't find it so socially cumbersome. I think at its core, the central reason why Discord drama tends to get this way is that in any of these discussions, there is a unspoken contract is isn't respected. That being, "If you're wrong, you are not a bad person". The biggest reason why arguments drag out so long and tediously is because people see it as a zero-sum game where one's self-worth is on the line. That's not the purpose of a productive conversation. I know that that's what you were getting at; you want the discussion to "go somewhere" and address a problem. But also, you need to keep in mind the fact that not everyone is familiar or comfortable with every style of communication, and also that in order for that contract to be restored and upheld, you need to proactively show that your intention is not to insult or belittle. Of course, there's only so much you can do on your own, but little by little what you can attempt to do is to actively push the idea of a Discord server as not being an arena for people to fight in. There are ways to push an argument without being stubborn, and compromise is not a stupid or complacent option, especially for petty conversations. It's surprising how much changing your tone even for one argument (especially being a big voice now) can affect others by appealing to their own ideas of social roles. However I think at least for the past while you've been doing a better job at this than you think. Often I see arguments but it's not often I see dogpiling anymore. Ever since I joined the server, I've found it a great and comfortable place with a lot of people who are great fun to talk to and discuss with, and I think you might be taking it for granted that this community still, on average, has a higher degree of maturity than a lot of other communities (Lots of stories involving the oh-so-wise actions of kids my age or younger). And honestly, every time I've seen you say stuff it has been really interesting and reasonable to hear. In conclusion, yes this is an issue. Yes, you have every right to be frustrated. Yes, you are not without fault here. But everyone is human, and you need to understand that everyone is struggling with this stuff. You're not the only one, and you're far from the worst, so don't pressure yourself into giving up Discord because of discussions that are all in the past. Keep looking forward, and keep pushing this genre as far as you can go. I think it's worth it even for such a small community.
legless
2021-07-31 00:42:39 +0000 UTCThis is some really great advice :-) Yes, I will fall into the trap of "I don't want to back down because I want to change the current of conversation" all the time. But as I have begun to learn, and as you definitely are right about, this rarely ever happens in this mode of communication and it's more productive to take a step back and try to address any new ideas in a new manner like a video or just let the concern drop for now and move on ha.
The Electric Underground
2021-06-23 16:35:04 +0000 UTCYes, this is an issue that I have run into as well where it becomes really difficult to discuss strategy at times because of the rigid structure that has been around in the past. I actually have been having discussions with fellow players on the discord about this issue and I do hope that we can shift things to be less rigid and more open minded to new ideas. I'm not totally sure this will change, but at least I did breech the topic ha.
The Electric Underground
2021-06-23 16:26:20 +0000 UTCI used to be all-night internet argument guy. All sorts of thoughts popped up: "The others on the site will think I'm weak/stupid if I back down." "What they're saying is so dumb, no way I'm letting this go." "I'm making an important point. I have to do my small part to shift online opinion." When I got to grad school and saw how actual smart person debates played out, I realized I was going at it all wrong. Trying to compel someone to come around to your point of view if they’re highly resistant is a huge waste of time and energy unless it’s a serious issue. Because being pressed starts to feel like an attempt at domination (and really, if it’s about something really minor & pointless, it might actually be). If a person feels like they’re under attack, or their status within the group is being threatened, the human brain will just tune you right out, because that’s genuinely more important to them than whatever you’re saying. They literally won’t process your arguments, because now it’s all about the emotion underlying the conversation. See: all of current politics. The thing to do is deflate the situation. If you make a point and someone comes back at you with unprompted aggression, ignore that part of it. Stand your ground by responding politely with your reasoning, without anything that can be read as condescension. This signals to them that their blow didn’t even land, and that you’re not in a threat posture. One of two things will happen. They’ll probably dial it back right away, realizing they’ll look like a childish jackass if they don’t. If they don’t dial it back, then congrats, you’ve found an actual jackass. Their opinion does not count for much - and they're probably at least subconsciously aware of this, hence the aggressive energy to try & compensate. Winning them over costs you much but gains you little to nothing. Just disengage. Trust that other people can think for themselves, and some will see your point if you’ve got one. Don’t worry about the world agreeing with you, even Einstein didn’t get that.
Philip Mason
2021-06-22 04:56:18 +0000 UTC"My family asked, what are you doing?"... "I'm arguing with strangers on the internet, for days." I had almost the exact moment of realization a few months back. Was on the Espgaluda sub on discord and got into the most absurd, semantics driven back and forth, which was essentially just a guy misunderstanding me and instead of ironing it out peacefully, using it as a way to lampoon me and bring others into the mix. The anger I got for using non-sanctioned descriptions, according to the gods of that sub forum, was just bizarre. I'm basically a solo player and I just didn't know the lingo so what I said sounded odd. When it all aired out, people understood but what was left was this trail of carnage that was embarassing for everyone. For me it was just "what am I doing with my time here?" It's really unfortunate because there are a lot of good people are just cool and easy to deal with. But the weirdos and jerks just come in and ruin it like usual. This is usually why I have a hard time identifying with groups. They tend to evolved and organize around people who who like power, social gamesmanship and personal agendas. Still not sure what to do because I don't want to just disconnect entirely.
NeonDaggerGames
2021-06-18 21:29:22 +0000 UTCUnfortunately, we can’t control individual behaviours within a forum/community, it’s also impossible to reason with some who have a specific mindset (and this is true for Discord or other) - and the shmup community (IN GENERAL) unfortunately suffers from this ‘dismissing’ mindset when it comes to different opinions (the most common and important one being Cave shmups/bullet hells vs every other shmup ever existed or dares to exist) – kind of reminds me of PS fans vs xbox fans no matter what (and vice versa) - but this is another podcast on its own :). So yes I understand what you’re saying.. But what I think matters is all the good work you do: So continue doing what you do, because what you do does matter for a genre which has certainly seen better days :)
Mekalen
2021-06-18 08:55:57 +0000 UTCI am glad you chose some piano and violin songs since it seems to match more of the nature of discussion. Also, it's good to use discord moderately to do light discussion. Otherwise, you can use PM with some close friends or hang out on smaller servers with close friends and have light hearted discussions.
JBRPG
2021-06-18 02:53:57 +0000 UTCyes I think the strength of discord is definitely as a more relaxed chill hangout tool where you shoot the breeze and make jokes, but it's ability to work for more in-depth serious conversation is not great because what often happens is that if there is a disagreement, like I talked about in the ep, a crowd will tend to form for one side over the other and pretty much just dogpile the opposing party into submission. So from now on I'm just going to use discord for more general information sharing, or purely just to hang out and chat on smaller topics. Trying to discuss strategy in there gets really frustrating for me though.
The Electric Underground
2021-06-17 21:15:04 +0000 UTCyes exactly. I think discord works very well for impromtu fast conversations or basically just hanging out, but if you ever try to get into something more substantial, that's when things stretch the platform beyond it's limits. It's also a platform that can tend itself towards dog piling (though twitter is worse about this) so trying to have a conversation with more then a few people at once turns into a nightmare. It's still very useful for certain things like organizing events and such and having a general hang out session, but I've learned my lesson not to try and get into more in-depth or serious conversations on it as it goes south almost every time.
The Electric Underground
2021-06-17 21:11:49 +0000 UTCI’ve tried to get into Discord, but it seems like a time sink and a jumbled mess of conversations stepping on top of each other. The tone is very hard to convey and it’s easy to want to jump into arguments. It really needs threading and some of the features that Slack has to be better. Even then, I’m not sure it’s worth the time. If folks use it for Q/A type stuff, someone should create a shmup version of stack overflow, where a question is asked, discussed, answered, then marked as resolved. Similar to Twitter, I can see myself jumping off of Discord. It’s far too much noise versus signal.
David Lee Martins
2021-06-17 20:04:59 +0000 UTCDiscord is an odd one for me. Your channel was the first time I ever even downloaded and used it, and then SJ's a while after. I'm not really a fan of the format but those same reasons are why it kinda works for me. I use it as a resource, before discord finding specific shmup information was like finding a needle in a haystack and oftentimes the information was 15 years out of date or flat wrong. Now I can just ask the amorphous shmup community and someone is bound to know something. The problem is while that information is "permanent" in the chat, it's a massive pain trying to search and piece together previous conversations about the same thing so these discussions are just buried. However on the flip side, arguments like you discuss are subject to the same thing. I personally avoid any online arguments like the plague regardless of who's wrong or right because like you say no one wins and nothing is gained, but I take solace in that if I say something really stupid it's just going to be washed away and forgotten within a couple days. Memory is very short in these jumbled online discussions in my experience, both for good and bad.
Chinopolis
2021-06-17 15:16:14 +0000 UTC
