Supernatural - 4x3 "In The Beginning" Rewatch
Added 2024-05-24 08:28:56 +0000 UTC
Comments
Somewhere during season 4 I started believing that the demons and angels were working together. Coordinating their efforts. I also feel that events still would have happened, even if Dean weren't there. Sam was already on the case and investigating what happened to Mary's friend's father. Yellow Eyes was in the area, and was going to hang around. With Sam on the case, Mary would have been too, and Yellow Eyes likely would have noticed her. About the car. It is possible that John would have changed his mind about what car to buy even if Dean weren't there. He seemed to already know about the car and want it. He hadn't committed to buying the van yet. It's possible. I think Kripke was making it so it could be taken either way. Maybe things wouldn't have happened exactly like this, or at this time, but I do think it would have happened. What is new is that yellow eyes learns about Dean. That's what's odd. And maybe Deanna wouldn't have died. But it may be that Sam is special. Yellow Eyes said 10 years. Why 10 years? Maybe time travel told them that Sam would be born in 10 years? Well, we already know that Sam and Dean are the "perfect" vessels for Michael and Lucifer. Sam for Lucifer and Dean for Michael. So the angels and demons already knew about it. Dean didn't already know about the blood yet. Sam hadn't told him about that. I think Cas knew some of what was going on with the Plan, but not all of it.
Michele
2024-06-03 01:58:05 +0000 UTCI love all versions of Cas but yes season 4 Cas is something else, it's so special. This is why I don't blame Mary for Sam and dean's lives, Azazel didn't tell her anything really, blaming her for all of it is too harsh IMO.
Hasnaa
2024-05-26 03:29:07 +0000 UTCFun fact: Mitch joined Jared on Walker, they play Father/Son as Bonham Walker and Cordell Walker respectively.
Elisia
2024-05-25 18:50:10 +0000 UTCIMO it is the blood that gives the kids their power. I think that's what Azazel was smelling Dean for. He was smelling his blood. Dean doesn't know about the blood until Azazel tells him. This was a closed loop. Dean has to go back to start things because that's what always happened. Whether that's because the Angels need to put things into place or they really are just trying to figure out the why is probably up for interpretation.
KAREN GAUCK
2024-05-25 04:02:49 +0000 UTCI remember 12.22 differently. Dean said he blamed her for the deal, but forgave her because he has made similar difficult (selfish) choices to save people he loved.
AdoptDontShopPets
2024-05-24 18:38:21 +0000 UTC- Dean didn't know that Sam knew about him and Azazel's demon blood in this episode, he only found out about it in the next one - Metamorphosis 4.04 - when Sam inadvertently revealed that he knew about that bit of info since at Cold Oaks S2 but he kept it hidden from Dean. - Cas didn't know about the angels' plan until The Rapture 4.20, when he was taken back to heaven to be brainwashed, fighting the angels with all his might at the beginning of that episode after knowing what the angels' plans were. Afterward he came back at the end to save Jimmy, newly brainwashed back to the side of the angels again, but not for long. In the finale, he turns his back on heaven and the angels permanently, and begins siding with humans generally and with the Winchesters specifically. - In early S9 they expanded more on the lore about angel possessions from what Cas revealed in Lazarus Rising - and not only tells us but shows that some humans cannot contain angels as they will explode. CASTIEL: Finding a human vessel durable enough to contain me... it's not easy. - At 1:00:43 about the giving permission thing, since parents especially mothers regularly monitor their newborns, I took it as what Azazel said - he didn't want to be interrupted when he got there. If the mother 'gave permission', she would then 'have to let him be or allow him in the nursery undisturbed' - she wouldn't know what he was gonna do anyway, and wouldn't ever need to know why as he wasn't gonna hurt the child - that was my takeaway. Mary interrupted and then looked set to fight him, that was why she was killed, and so did some of the special mother's kids I presumed, like Max's mom in S1 who also died in the nursery fire. I supposed Azazel didn't want to kill the kids' moms if he didn't have to, as the children needed their mothers. As in the case of the Winchesters - since Azazel did kill Mary, he signed his death warrant as Dean became the one who did eventually kill him. - At 1:03:38 about Dean's "I hate you" to Mary, to me that phrase comes across as more strategic than misogynistic. Imo It was not that he blamed her for the deal that she made with Azazel that he uttered that words. He was in actuality wanting to snap her out of her dream world and back into reality - because in it [her mind/psyche], she was actively avoiding him and deliberately not looking at him, causing him to plead with her "Mom, look at me". Below is my post from the Who We Are 12.22 reaction, copy/paste and edit for clarity:- He [Dean] had to make her stop and listen to him - to get her attention - and what better strategy than to 'force' her into processing what he said - by saying "I hate you" and all the triggering [and guilty] things that she had already put upon on herself. We immediately saw that he quickly absolved Mary's actions (he said that he understood where Mary was coming from), so, in my opinion, he didn't necessarily truly mean all that he said and wanted Mary to put all that baggage on herself ... just ... just to get [snapped] her out of that dang brainwash ... [... as then he said: And I understand... 'cause I have made deals to save the ones I love more than once.] [ETA: It is my firm opinion that sometimes we don't have to take what the writers wrote at face value and just look at the underlying circumstances and issues that provoke the characters into saying problematic things.] Dean blaming Mary for dying is what I think most young children felt when they lost their parents during their childhood, and as a consequence of that loss, they suffered in life. Yeah, I am aware that it is unreasonable and unfair because death is not something that we choose in life to do (it's not logical/rational thinking). So I give Dean a pass. /end - From 3.02 The Kids Are Alright, almost all who knew Mary died later, which I took including her parents. SAM: They're dead. All of them. All of my mom's friends. Her doctor, her uncle – everyone who ever knew her, systematically wiped off the map one at a time. - And then in S6, the show did bring back a few of the Campbells. - Also, Crowley brought back Samuel Campbell and Castiel bought back Sam from the cage without his soul in S6. From The Man Who Would be King 6.20:- CROWLEY: Fine. Then I know of a certain big, bald patriarch I can take off the bench. This led to my headcanon that Samuel went to hell when he died since he was such an asshole and a bad human being all around.
rose mnor
2024-05-24 11:54:57 +0000 UTC- Highlights from the transcript of 4.03 In the Beginning DVD commentary (concerning some matters brought up by Shelley in the reaction video), by Eric Kripke & Jeremy Carver - link: https://stir-of-echoes.livejournal.com/509578.html - Eric Kripke EK: "... this was a closed-ended loop that Dean ALWAYS goes back in time and instigates the events that happen in this episode which caused Sam and Dean to be put on this path which caused them to run into Castiel who sent Dean back in time ...[ ] ... Well there’s this time loop and in my mind it’s this closed circle and he’s always going back.” - EK: "The parent’s names are Sam and Deana obviously as if Sam and Dean are named after Mary’s parents it was also a personal moment for me because my wife’s name is Deana and she’s been not really annoyed but playfully irritated that I never named a character after her." [Dean only found out about this here in this episode, that's why he made that remark and face at the 25.00 min mark of the reaction video.] - EK on why Dean didn't tell Mary that she will be killed by Azazel: “Hey, don’t go into that nursery because some demon’s going to burn you on the ceiling. Is because she really would have remembered that and it would have changed what happened in the Pilot so we had this logic in our head that he’s trying to hide that he’s a time traveller and if he told her she would think he was crazy and she wouldn’t believe him. A hunter who wouldn’t believe that someone could travel through time is one for the ages but she probably would have believed him." "Did she think that her son being in potential danger outweighed any threat she might have felt. Should she have gotten out of bed in the first place and when you look at it, it kinda makes sense at first she thinks its John standing over the crib, whatever I won’t go in to too much detail but it does kind of hang together." - Jeremy Carver on how many bullets left for the Colt: JC: In terms of the bullet with the Colt I can honestly say, yeah it was more about not killing Yellow-Eyes and I don’t think that I really thought about the bullets until possibly after having written the script, the sides being published and reading something on a fan board saying, “I hope they kept track of the bullets.” And I was like, “Oooops!” I hadn’t thought about it. - About the deal Mary made: EK: "And that Mary being so desperate that she signed off on that and we had a lot of discussion and again it was one of the tricky things about this episode that the deal that he’s offering these people has to be so vague in a way and I understand why you did it in a way, writers are usually allergic to vaguery they want to be more specific but it just made her so hateful that she knew she was going to sacrifice her own children that Bob and I couldn’t see to making it happen. It’s a little unsatisfying that he’s offering them that I’m going to come in ten years and it’s something that you won’t even miss and he has to be a little vague but again it’s all those different puzzle pieces and make them fit together." - EK & JC gushing and heaping praises about Misha and what he brought to the role of Castiel: EK: "I really have to give Misha who plays Castiel a lot of credit what a pleasure this guy has been both to work and what he brings to the show and he just came in for the audition for the angel and he was just so complicated and brought such innocence to the role and all of the different dimensions we just knew that he was lightning in a bottle and the fans have really responded to him in a way that they have never responded to, especially any other guest star on the show. We ended up snatching him up he’s going to be a regular we just knew what we had on our hands plus he’s been such a gentleman and a real pleasure to work with. JC: I was writing him never having seen him or even heard him. EK: Because the dailies hadn’t even been shot we hadn’t even shot the first episode when we wrote this. JC: And this guy is just a brick-house stud."
rose mnor
2024-05-24 11:47:29 +0000 UTCJust commenting early due to the question you had about the specifics of what vessels were assigned to Sam and Dean. Michael was the older brother that wanted to be the good son to his father. Lucifer was the younger brother who rebelled. They also made it canon that anyone who was Lucifer's vessel had to drink demon blood, so I think that was how they tied that back into yellow eyes after the psychic kids/demon army story line was scrapped. First edit: Cass brought Samuel back in S6 because Crowley suggested it would be easier to control Sam if he was working with "family". Crowley dangled bringing Mary back to life for Samuel if he did what was asked of him.
Vel
2024-05-24 10:30:33 +0000 UTCMeg just goes by the names of the people she possesses, like when she possessed Sam, she said her name was Sam now and that she had lots of names. And we just keep referring to her by the first person we saw her possess. Yeah, not only would Mary probably not have met Azazel but without Dean confessing Angels sent him back directly to Azazel, Azazel wouldnt have killed Samuel and Deanna. At this time, Demons and Angels had a lot more specific steps they needed to do, before averting the apocalypse destroys all the rules for them and Crowley changes so much of hell. I always forget this is the episode Dean finds out about Azazels demon blood.
Kyle
2024-05-24 08:48:17 +0000 UTC
