Supernatural - 8x17 "Goodbye Stranger" Rewatch
Added 2021-10-31 06:34:24 +0000 UTC
Comments
this was SUCH a fun rewatch! thank you shelley! i laughed, i almost cried, i almost threw my phone across the room. 😂
Rae
2021-11-01 10:01:15 +0000 UTCI'm just going to add here that those particular colors aren't just used for one interpretation, and given the context of the episode itself could mean many different things. Personally, if we were discussing a bisexual character in the textual canon, I could understand and even agree with the alternative interpretations. However, this isn't one of those scenarios...at least IMO. It's taking place in an office that primarily has been used to communicate with genderless or gender fluid celestial beings. I will happily acknowledge when subtext is present (for all the ships) and even more so in the textual canon - whether people like the ship or not...but it's always going to be a challenge to sell people on the set design and lighting. Especially when you're dealing with Boomers who probably have very little clue about things like bisexual lighting (I can almost guarantee this about Jerry anyway). And I say this as someone who's dad worked at area 51...I'm no stranger to conspiracy theories...just not that one. Sorry. Upside down flags are always a distress signal...but this never struck me as a flag...it's more of a simple color gradient. And given what Naomi was trying to accomplish in the moments the lighting was used, it would make more sense to evoke a feeling of trust, comfort, innocence and warmth while in that office. https://nofilmschool.com/2016/06/watch-psychology-color-film
Vel
2021-11-01 07:28:41 +0000 UTCI know Jerry's family. A lot of his set designs come from the same town he grew up in, and where I actually live.
Vel
2021-11-01 06:48:37 +0000 UTCOh, and another thing, in the original script, Dean says 'I forgive you', which is taken out. This is huge to Cas because Shelley made the connection to S6 Cas's 'betrayal' arc to this episode, which seemed like Cas is, again, betraying the Winchesters. Robbie likes to reference old episodes, in this one he references Born under a bad sign. So it was a no-brainer that the forgiving part might be Dean's forgiving Cas's S6 betrayal too, with this S8 perceived betrayal (before he could or would be killed by Cas). Dean does realize though not 100% knew that, Cas is under mind control the whole season, he is not acting at his full agency. So Dean forgave Cas should Cas can hear him and should he die at Cas's hand. Which is a bummer that the line was taken out ...
rose mnor
2021-11-01 00:28:07 +0000 UTCHe has no one to tell him what this emotion is, or anything to compare it to. What he does know is that his loyalty to Dean knows no bound. We can translate THAT into him having a loving emotional attachment to Dean (platonic or otherwise). Cas himself might not know yet, until then, we wait and see how he's gonna act further, and/or if he's gonna realize ...
rose mnor
2021-11-01 00:13:21 +0000 UTCI think when Cas replied to Dean asking him what broke the connection, Cas really doesn't know. Cas at this point in the series was a newly fallen angel. And he spent quite some time not knowing who he is in S7. Then when he was 'resurrected' by the tablet, he spent the time with a whole gamut of feeling guilty, remorse, and a lot of what else. Then he got sent to purgatory, where he drowned himself in penance. Before he is ready, Naomi plucked him back into the fray. He might not know yet what this emotion that he is feeling is called.
rose mnor
2021-11-01 00:13:00 +0000 UTCYou deliberately say things like “Destiel folk reduce their relationship to some silly romance” which #1) invalidates the ship, 2) diminishes the depth of relationship we see (it’s not like Cas just saw Dean in hell and was like, oh he’s hot) and 3) you are implying that anyone who sees the romance in this is silly, frivolous, basic or unintelligent. You could’ve said your exact same point without any of that. “I see their relationship as so much more than romance…” That gets your point across without being snarky about other people. And you are CLEARLY trolling to some extent if you read the previous comments because once again NO ONE CARES THAT YOU DON’T LIKE/SEE/SHIP DESTIEL! But just because we do and you don’t is no reason to be passive aggressive about it.
Kristin Dorner
2021-10-31 22:44:41 +0000 UTCI like the idea of fluidity with angels and demons. It makes sense that they would be. With angels it seems like they would fall in love with a humans soul first and then it would become physical. Demons are just straight up with whoever they want. It's like when angels need consent to possess, but demons just jump whoever they want.
Brenda Lewis
2021-10-31 17:44:28 +0000 UTCThat would make sense. As a young boy finding titillating materials he would have been intrigued. Finding them hidden and knowing there was a forbidden element into what he was seeing, he probably would have been even more drawn to them.
Brenda Lewis
2021-10-31 16:49:40 +0000 UTCThat is fascinating! I didn’t know about the meaning of the bi flag shown like that. I just keep learning from your comments 🙌🏻
Luis Nov
2021-10-31 15:53:01 +0000 UTCIm sorry but I have to say something, I was one of the people who you're saying that “bullied you and dragged out off of discord” which is of course, not true, and if you really feel that way I truly sorry and even more so I have to step in and saying it wasn't like that. I do remember very well how it happened, you were complaining that the discord turned into "a destiel discord only" because we talked about it outside a destiel channel and we calmly and politely explained to you that we were doing that cause having a destiel spoiler channel could be interpreted as spoiler since at that time Castiel were dead and we asked the non destiel shippers to bare (Which is a word I do not like) with us a couple of weeks until Castiel came back and even so we tried not to talk about it that much, and yet you claimed that you felt triggered by it cause you were bullied and we respected that, I asked you what can we do to make you feel safe there and you just left (which is totally fine, if you're not liking it) so I thought you were just stepping out to avoid to be around topics you don't like but now you're saying we bullied you out of there? Im sorry but that’s not true. You said here (don't know who are you replying to with your comment) that (and Im quoting you here) “I suspect you just hate anyone who doesn't share your ship” and that's exactly what you're doing, you seem to call bullying at someone who doesn't agree with you. People here are just saying to you that you often call Destiel shippers as "silly" or that we "diminish" this or that and many many times you write things like that, and I, not even once, have seen anyone being disrespectful to you or that you were getting bullied cause of course I would step in cause aside of being a mod for Shelley on discord and youtube, that's who I am as a person, I don't tolerate any kind of insult of attacks to anyone. We all have a different opinions, and we are allowed to share them but not diminishing to other’s opinions that are just different to yours and then calling it attacks just cause they’re defending theirs is wrong. We’re working to create a safe community for everyone, we just need to be respectful to others, and I invite you to do the same. Feel free to contact me if you're feeling unsafe, I know you're not in discord anymore and sadly Patreon doesn't allow to have DMs but I'll leave my socials, (to anyone who needs it) you can find me everywhere as "Luis Johnson" and we can work things out.
Luis Nov
2021-10-31 15:20:09 +0000 UTCLikely Vietnam rather than Korea, but yes that is an interesting thought.
AdoptDontShopPets
2021-10-31 15:08:15 +0000 UTCHelen, you called it “some silly romance.” Use of the word silly is specifically putting a value judgment on the ship and the people who ship it. Your views and insights are welcome, though insulting fellow Patreons we will continue to call out. We just want this to be a welcoming space for all.
AdoptDontShopPets
2021-10-31 14:52:20 +0000 UTCThat is not true, i didn't bully or insult you & people in the discord can say if i did, the conversation back then wasn't even with you but you jumped in & assumed bunch of stuff about us based on alleged previous experiences with others on twitter & left the server, here you're doing it again, saying to Kristen that you suspect that she hates everyone who doesn't share her ship, you keep assuming & suspecting stuff about our intentions & acting up on those assumptions, i personally love many people here who don't share my ship & love to read their comments & interact with them like Linda, Christopher, Brenda to name a few, on the contrary, when you asked for people to not discuss their opinions on the finale of the show on discord to consider your feelings i stood by you & made 2 channels for you so you could feel safe, i only ask for the same in exchange, what people are saying here is that we're happy to stay away from your comments but you keep dragging us in by saying destiel shippers do this, destiel shippers do that in almost every comment, belittling us & our opinions, no one is telling you to change your opinion, just keep us out of it, please, like for example instead of saying destiel shippers cheapen dean & cas's relationship, u can say i think romance cheapens love & no one will say anything
Hasnaa
2021-10-31 14:51:12 +0000 UTCBrenda, it's subtle, but Crowley often addresses flirtatious remarks to Dean and is positively possessive over him at times.
Helen Wood
2021-10-31 14:39:27 +0000 UTCI didn't drag anyone into anything. You bullied and insulted me into leaving the discord, please stop attacking every comment too.
Helen Wood
2021-10-31 14:38:31 +0000 UTCI haven;'t been rude about anyone. Any time I comment on anything, I get attacked by the Destiel folk. I was, in fact, forced off the discord by them and I have never retaliated in any way. I'm sorry if my comments offend you,. That is never my intent. I suspect you just hate anyone who doesn't share your ship. All I am saying is that in my opinion, reducing Cas and Dean to mere boyfriends diminishes their relationship. Quite how that is rude to anyone, I don't know.
Helen Wood
2021-10-31 14:37:25 +0000 UTCI often wonder whether the Busty Asian Beauties thing has something to do with John having been in Korea. He was single at the time and we know he had porn mags later (Anna Nicole Smith featured in one). If he brought back a few from his time in Asia and a youn, impressionale Dean found them, it may well have given him a lasting appreciation for Asian ladies.
Helen Wood
2021-10-31 14:32:47 +0000 UTCI haven't seen Crowley crushing on Dean.
Brenda Lewis
2021-10-31 13:48:08 +0000 UTCHad such a good time with eth re-watch, my comment disappeared so I will say this. I loved the paralelle about Cas being Meg's unicorn and Dean being Castiel's That made me sit up and take notice, that's a good line. Sam and Dean especially Sam have a strong history about not trusting Meg, she killed people they cared about and made Sam kill too. I think Meg works for the greater good when it lines up with her own interests. But she is much better than she was. I see a isolation paralelle with Dean and Cas, which probably only deepens their bond. Is it love, yes. Is it romantic, maybe but to me that doesn't mean it's specifically sexual. I find it to be on another level, but I can understand someone seeing more there and I certainly wouldn't argue that. And on a different note, I know the writer push the Busty Asian Beauties thing. But I honestly never had a problem with it. Everybody has a bent and this is just Dean's. I mean I love Sam the most and his kink was drinking blood and then banging Ruby so. . . .
Brenda Lewis
2021-10-31 13:46:46 +0000 UTCNaomi told cas that she was the one who got him out of purgatory at the cost of many angels lives, i can't even imagine how that opening scene must have felt for cas, how many times did it take him to be able to kill the first fake dean, how many times it took for him to do it without hesitation, how he must have had to shut down any emotions he has behind a wall to protect himself & that's why we see him dead behind the eyes yet still that wall crumbled against real dean 😭. I would like to think that Sam & dean care about meg & would save her but i don't believe they do, cas was the only one who cared, it would be interesting to see his reaction to hearing that Crowley killed her. Re crowley's sexuality from the superwiki: We first meet Crowley sealing a deal with a male banker with a kiss and teasing him about his homophobia. He also seals his deal with Bobby with a kiss, and later shows off a picture of the moment that he took on his iPhone. Crowley appears to enjoy sexual sadism and we see him relishing the "erotic value" of inflicting pain. In order to set Brady up as a traitor with the other demons, Crowley uses the line that he and Brady are "lovers in league against Satan" which the other demons readily believe. In 6.07 Family Matters, he makes a joke about knowing Samuel, "but not in the biblical sense" and later refers to Cas as the bottom in their relationship. He also often makes sexual remarks to Sam and Dean. Becky Rosen speculated that Crowley may have been Lilith's lover, and he has possibly had a past sexual relationship with Naomi. Actor Mark Sheppard has said that he believes Crowley is "more pansexual than anything else". Personally I read all angels & demons as gender fluid pansexuals since I don't believe they care about gender when it comes to who they fall in love or have sex with. But it's also always easier to make villains not straight in Hollywood, much more easier than stating that the protagonists aren't straight.
Hasnaa
2021-10-31 11:21:09 +0000 UTCI would really appreciate if u state your opinion without belittling/dragging us into it everytime 🙂
Hasnaa
2021-10-31 09:57:59 +0000 UTCAlmost forgot to mention that I am sorry to say the first Mishalecki Influence panel was in 2016 and so this 2013 episode preceded it.
AdoptDontShopPets
2021-10-31 09:29:41 +0000 UTCLOVE, LOVE, LOVE your re-watches!! Have I mentioned how much you rock? Cause you do! 😊 I agree with everything you've said here. Literally I just kept nodding along, the whole time you were talking! 😂 I have a tiny theory about one moment in the crypt scene that I'm going to share on Discord because it will need gifs to illustrate it. 😊 It's nothing earth shattering just a thought. I agree with everyone, that there is SO much I can't wait for you to see!! Can't wait for the next reaction! 😊
Linda Moore
2021-10-31 09:17:48 +0000 UTCYou know Helen, with all due respect, you are so unnecessarily rude in these comments. You don’t see romance between Dean and Cas…fine! No one is saying that you have to. And no one is shitting on your messiah/savior interpretation, so why do you feel the need to shit on other people’s? We all interpret the show in ways that relate to us and our views/experiences. No one is saying you can’t state your opinion, but how about you stick to talking about your interpretations and the things you liked in the story and stop being so negative about the thoughts and views of others?
Kristin Dorner
2021-10-31 09:17:21 +0000 UTCYay!!! I love your rewatches so much!! I completely agree with Jensen that an ILY would be out of place and out of character here. I also agree with you that I Need You is a much more…intimate, vulnerable phrase. However, and I don’t know how much I can discuss this at this point in the show, but I the word “need” in this show is something that I can spend HOURS talking about. The way it is used, received, interpreted, or understood by multiple characters makes for so many complex situations and emotions throughout this whole show. I’ll probably get more into it a lot later on, but this is always a moment to remember. As far as why Dean started egging Cas on, I think it’s tied to Dean’s emotional process. At first he tried to use pure strength of will (“If you’re in there, you don’t have to do this. Fight it!”) and when that didn’t work and Cas kept going after him, it hurt Dean. I mean, physically yeah, but deeper down. It reminded me of what Dean said to Sam in 8x07 after he saw Cas in the window (“I just don’t know why he didn’t try harder (to get out of Purgatory with Dean).”) And then at the end, when he’s down to his last hope of getting through to Cas, he finally just opens up and lets his true emotions pour out. As action packed as this scene and this episode are, it is such an interesting character study for everyone. UGH I LOVE IT SO MUCH😭 Also, there were MULTIPLE things you said throughout this rewatch that made me want to throw my phone across the room because it made me so excited for your journey😁😁😁 There have been so many times I’ve thought “Oh my GOD, Shelley is going to lose her SHIT when she sees this!” (this episode was, of course, on the list) and you just added at least two more moments to the list😂😂😂
Kristin Dorner
2021-10-31 08:55:51 +0000 UTCFrom the superwiki: Details from Naomi's office: Production Designer Jerry Wanek pointed out the crucifix design that is in the glass wall. Some fans thought the colors of pink and purple outside this wall in the final scene in Naomi's office represented the Bisexual Pride flag, but Jerry confirmed that the lighting by Serge Ladouceur reflected emotion and the passage of time. Jerry Wanek’s tweets from March 20, 2013, to March 30, 2013 https://twitter.com/search?q=(from%3AJerryWanek)%20until%3A2013-03-31%20since%3A2013-03-20&src=typed_query (sorry for multiple posts, my long comments disappeared, have to shorten them)
rose mnor
2021-10-31 08:39:19 +0000 UTCI am now are aware that, by watching Bob Wess's youtube video 'Bi Man Dissects Destiel in Supernatural [spoilers] (9.5),' that the lightings with the bi-flag colors resembled 'an upside-down bi-flag.' He said that (paraphrasing here) the meaning of an upside-down bi-flag is trying to signify some perceived "distress" or "under attack" (yeah - emotions), which also means extreme danger to the person. Which exactly is what that scene is about. So, make of that what you will.
rose mnor
2021-10-31 08:37:28 +0000 UTCJerry corrected fans that he meant the design of the crosses or crucifix, or he said 'obvious Christian symbolism'. He then added that set lightings were Serge's area. Jerry said "My dear friend Serge controls the lighting. It was about emotion and passage of time. Although I am happy to support LGBT."
rose mnor
2021-10-31 08:36:02 +0000 UTCI love your faith/hope that Dean and Sam would get out of the Impala and help Meg if there had been more time. Maybe Sam would have - given his conversation with her - but I still feel like they thought of her as a demon given they didn’t immediately rush to her side when they exited the building. I see it as them being thankful to accept the benefit of her being a distraction for Crowley. And why do neither Dean nor Castiel realize what broke Cas’s connection to Naomi? Because they are both dumbasses. What can you do?
AdoptDontShopPets
2021-10-31 08:22:51 +0000 UTCAfter the episode aired, Jerry Wanek, the head of the SET designer, teased something about set dec - he meant the design behind Naomi which resembled crosses. Now, the other prominent name in fandom is Serge Ladouceur, the head of set LIGHTINGS. Jerry tweeted about the above set dec while being very cautious in a teasing way, asking fans to guess what it was. When trying to decipher Jerry's meaning, fans narrowed down on the colors in lightings when Cas was pummelling on Dean, which were the colors of bi-flag, and they pointed this out to Jerry.
rose mnor
2021-10-31 08:11:48 +0000 UTCDarn it! I knew I forgot something ... after rereading back the comments here, I remembered that I wanted to touch on the lighting colors in Naomi's office, beginning when Cas came into her room in heaven while on earth Cas and Dean found the angel tablet in the crypt, and the lightings remained there until the end of heaven scene. So here are some more context to the bi-flag colors that: claudia. Kristin Dorner Hasnaa, had brought up. (Disclaimer: before I proceed further, I would like to apologize should I use words that are not in their proper context, I am not from the LGBTA+ community and not from the US). Sidenote: at the end of the thread, I would copy & paste these moments taken from the superwiki. And also the link to Jerry's set of tweets for whoever is interested.
rose mnor
2021-10-31 08:11:04 +0000 UTCThanks for posting the rewatch, Shelley, it was double the fun for me, I enjoyed it so much. OMG, the questions you raised, it was so, so unsettling. You have major observational and deduction skills, it was uncanny. And I am going to shut up about it now. About the lighting colors in Naomi's office, I've already posted some further context on them on the earlier reaction page. For easier readings, I'm gonna repost them here in the reply.
rose mnor
2021-10-31 08:10:01 +0000 UTCI love these rewatches! I hated Meg for a long time, but then she ended up one of my favourite characters. I love her relationship with Cas and how completely it changes her. God did not ward the angel tablet against angels, Lucifer warded the chest it was in against angels. He's an archangel, so he could still get it, but no lesser angels could. I think Dean pushes Cas to try to kill him because he believes that in that moment, Cas will break free, just as he handed the gun to Sam in Asylum in the hope that it will snap him out of his homicidal rage. Destiel folk diminish the Cas and Dean relationship to some silly romance. It's much deeper than that (I am a Dessiah shipper, I see Dean as the saviour and messiah of Cas and vice versa, as well as them being brothers) and when Dean calls him a coward, he is putting immense trust in his brother and saviour. At the same time, I think Dean has decided that if Cas can kill him, he doesn't want to live, because that would mean Cas does not see him as family, but as a disposable mud monkey. I think Dean saying "I need you" is so much more than "I love you". "We're family." covers the "I love you" part, but for Dean to admit that he needs anyone is huge. He doesn't usually admit that even to himself. Demons swing all possible ways and Crowley is definitely pan (and has a massive crush on Dean).
Helen Wood
2021-10-31 07:50:41 +0000 UTC
