677. Tales from the Pit: A Conversation About Death
Added 2024-01-19 14:00:14 +0000 UTC
Michael asks Adam Ganser, fellow Small Bean, to discuss his relationship with death. They discuss their faith and assumptions, and the development of death in their lives. There’s also some stories from the community that spark some further introspection.
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Comments
I think it’s better if your relationships with the people you’ve lost remains complex after they’ve passed. It’s healthier. For me, it was easy to over look the not so good and just remember the things I loved about them. But by elevating their memory to something almost saintly came guilt on my part - I should have been more for them. Better. I took care of my mom before she passed and I have a lot of guilt that I didn’t do a good enough job - that I didn’t have enough patience, didn’t show enough love. But the reality was I was exhausted and I tried. And she was an alcoholic and made my life very difficult when she was alive. But it’s harder to remember that she had her faults now that she’s gone. It may seem disrespectful to not discard the bad memories, but the reality is that it’s important for me to remind myself that they weren’t perfect either. Also, thank you Michael, because the fact that you feel EXACTLY like I do about death weirdly made me feel better. It’ll hit me in the middle of the night that one day I will just END, and I get dizzy and can’t breathe. 😅 But at the same time, I get this feeling that I’ve done all of this before sometimes…
Maddy
2024-12-05 01:10:10 +0000 UTCI stumbled upon this particular pod today, which also happened to be day I got a call that my dad had been rushed to the hospital. He's okay, it seems, but it got my mind on death more than usual and Mike and Adam rained upon me like mana from Heaven. Does mana rain? Hmm. I've felt my entire life, I've been aware of death. I don't just mean in the philosophical sense. Some of my earliest memories, after the important stuff like Batman and Star Trek, revolved around death. One of my very first memories, a week or two after my memories began (around 2.5 years old, with a Batman Mego doll), was me reaching for a Tonka truck at poolside and falling in. I promptly sank to the bottom and sat there with my truck. A babysitter, the kind that lets a toddler sit by the deep end, pulled me out. Lots of commotion there. When I was five, my mom's father died, which led to us moving to Florida from California and I had an aunt explain to me that "Grampy" wouldn't be around anymore. The deaths of Elvis, John Lennon, and John Belushi were big deals to me (or at least, I understood they were big deals). As a third grader, I was reading articles about the Atlanta Child Murders and Ted Bundy. Around fifth grade, I'm seeing missing child photos for Adam Walsh. As a result, my mother and I would (in the coming years) talk a lot about serial killers. A couple months after visiting my dad's sister, she died in a car crash. A few years later my great-grandfather died, but that was expected as he was born in the 19th century. The traumatic death was when I was 20 and my mother was murdered by an unknown assailant. I didn't mean to bury the lede, but I was being chronological. A serial killer, Oba Chandler, was in the area at the time and left town a week after, but the authorities claim they were watching him at the time. More recently, following the deaths of any and all grandparents and great aunts and uncles, my wife and I had to move in with her mother after the sudden death of her husband. A year after that, my best friend's mom died from dementia. Shortly after that, my mother-in-law was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, and much like Mike's uncle, the last days were extraordinarily unpleasant for her and for us, as we were the primary caretakers. So, this has given me some perspective on the slow rolling and sudden death debate. Spoiler alert: they both suck (for the living). The slow deaths are certainly worse for the person doing the dying in my experience. It's not so great for the living person, but in many cases, it does let one come to some sort of terms with the death, as agonizing as it may be. Goodbyes are possible. Expressions of love are possible (though people still screw that up sometimes). Death via causes like dementia have another layer. As their memories go, it can feel like they've already died. Sometimes, it's a succession of little deaths. While the true physical death remains gut-wrenching, there can be an aspect of grim relief that (to me) felt different than other long-term deaths like cancer. Conversely, while sudden deaths avoid the physical suffering, the shock and the regrets harbored by the living for the love unsaid can be dramatically higher. I feel confident in saying that when the sudden death is from an act of murder, as opposed to heart attack or car crash, it is (as with the difference between grandparents and nuclear family) an order of magnitude worse. Of course, the kicker is, that no matter the form of death, for those left behind, it will never be easy, and the words said will never be enough.
Scriptmonkeys
2024-03-13 03:37:52 +0000 UTCThis was a tremendous pod. Death has been kicking my ass lately. Over the past few years, I've lost three close friends, a family member, two dogs, and a cat. All three of the friends had sudden deaths, and two died by suicide (the pets did not commit suicide, thankfully). It is true that losing people makes you more conscious of death, and the anxiety of non-existence becomes more present (and for a short period, more persistent). But in my experience, that anxiety becomes more manageable, even if it becomes more of a "real" thing. When people start dying around you, you quickly develop a toolkit for managing grief while life goes on. One of the most horrifying moments of the past year was realizing that when a friend died, I knew exactly what to do -- I'm unnerved that I have developed proficiency with grief. It's the experience of losing a variant of innocence that you weren't aware that you had. On the other hand, the tools for dealing with grief are necessary, and it's certainly a good thing that our minds can reveal those skills. They're also excellent tools for dealing with death-anxiety. If you have religion or philosophy, that can help you sort out those tools before you need them (Thich Nhat Hanh's No Death, No Fear is an excellent read for Buddhists or the Buddhist-inclined, and Swaim, you might appreciate it). Adam, you might dig Living Buddha, Living Christ by the same author. The thesis of that book is pretty much, "Jesus and Buddha. Two great dudes, amiright?"
John Krane
2024-02-05 20:49:25 +0000 UTCMy favorite apocryphal last words were roald Dahl, pasted here from Google: The almost final words of writer Roald Dahl, were “You know, I'm not frightened. It's just that I will miss you all so much” to his family. After seeming to fall unconscious, the nurse injected him with morphine to ease his passing, and his actual last words were, "Ow, fuck!"
Patrick Tillett
2024-01-25 20:18:43 +0000 UTCThe wise man plants trees that will never shade him, but only his grandchildren.
Antipaganda
2024-01-24 00:02:05 +0000 UTCReally loved this one, thankyou both. I was like Michael a long time, constantly fearful of death. Health issues added to that, but mostly, it's that there's so much to see in this crazy universe, and I don't want to stop experiencing it all! It's the ultimate FOMO. However, in recent years I've become more sanguine, and while I'm not quite sure why, it's partly because I am no longer convinced that there's no afterlife. And I don't agree with Adam that science can't probe the existence of an afterlife; it's more likely just one of those things we can't measure yet. It's an answerable question; if there's evidence in favour, then we can be confident it exists. However, I will agree with his general assertion that there are questions impossible even in principle to answer using science, because we cannot sufficiently define them to others, only to ourselves. That's where faith comes in, and where religious traditions like Christianity can help, by bringing up ideas we may not ever think of by ourselves, which we can evaluate on our own terms. Consciousness, free will, purpose, meaning, these are the realm of what you choose to believe, based on intuition alone.
Antipaganda
2024-01-23 23:59:33 +0000 UTCHell yeah pancakes! <3
Ryan Bowdish
2024-01-21 06:09:36 +0000 UTCI am generally fearful of death, but it comes and goes. I think over the past year or so I've made changes in my life, which have aided in changes to my outlook, that have made me slightly more comfortable with mortality. I find that my fear of death comes most often at times when I am tired, depressed, and otherwise not well. As others have said, I fear non-existence, but can find some comfort in the idea that non-existence will literally not include fear or pain or anything. I am not 100% committed to that as my belief, I'd say I'm at 80% believing in non-existence, 20% open to anything else being possible, due to the craziness of the universe and the "why anything?" of it all. A few years ago, just getting out of college and into my first professional job and first global pandemic, I was confronted by the fragility of life, and the mundanity of capitalism. I had so many artistic dreams and things that I wanted to accomplish as I was finishing school, and then felt beaten down and unable to do much of anything, worried that were I to get sick and die, my life wouldn't have amounted to much. I think that now, having done a few cool things, and taken more agency over my life, I am at a point of creative satisfaction. If I died tomorrow, I wouldn't be too bummed out over things I didn't get done. I think this has led to me being less driven to accomplish bigger and better projects, but has led to a healthier and happier existence for myself. If I can make little things that bring joy to those directly around me, that is enough. This feeling still ebbs and flows, and I do have plans for larger things I want to do, but I don't beat myself up as much over it as I used to. I just enjoy being with friends. My job now is half creative, half administrative, and almost never contains enough work for 40 hours a week, but part of it is being the person that sits at the front desk in case anyone comes by. This has alleviated some of the frustration of wasting my life being at work (alongside being around more pleasant people and a more welcoming environment than my first professional job), and has emboldened me to do more blatant non-work at work. If I find I am more or less caught up with things, and don't have motivation to work on actual work, I'll seek out interesting articles or work on drawings or other artistic projects. I've dealt with suicidal/death ideation for a while. At its worst moments I've found myself in a depression paralysis where I'd really rather just not exist. I've never gotten to the point of making any sort of attempt, or even feeling like I was particularly close to attempting, its just an overwhelming feeling of blegh. But having thought about it so much, I wouldn't be surprised if someone from the future showed up and told me that I eventually do die by suicide. I think my fear of non-existence, along with not wanting to bring my family and friends pain keeps me from getting too far along that path, but I could see four or five awful dominoes falling in my life and just giving up. Along these lines of depressive episodes, I really relate to something Michael shared in a Tales from a while back, the feeling that, while depressed, there is no possible way things will get better. And on the flip side, when things are good, I've surely got it all sorted out and, like, who even was that guy? I'm getting better at recognizing each as a moment that will pass, I can tell myself that the depression will be over soonish, and it helps a little bit; the good times I try to just appreciate, but not get so wrapped up in them that they make me crash when they are over. Adam talked about beliefs being something you choose, and that is an idea I am going to need to think on for a bit. It is something that I feel I fundamentally disagree with. I was raised christian, and I think lost my faith sometime in high school, but wasn't really admitting it to myself until later in college, and even coming more to terms with it the last couple years. I don't think I can just choose to believe in something like that again, but, and this may be what Adam meant, I can examine myself for what I want to believe, and through study and meditation, find how I can make peace with my beliefs or alter my mindset into viewing the world/existence/whatever in a more positive way. This seems to have turned into a whole mini essay, and doesn't always stay on topic, but felt good to write. Thanks for this episode giving me space to think more on these things and verbalize them out into the world. I'm gonna go make pancakes or something.
Spencer Saunders
2024-01-20 16:58:17 +0000 UTCWas the Tombstone pic used because of the scene when Morgan is dying and says the light at the end of the tunnel isn't real and he "can't see a damn thing."? Cause that shit fucked with me as a kid. Thanks again, Dad, for showing me an awesome movie when I was way too young!
Worlorn
2024-01-20 11:11:26 +0000 UTCOn a second listen, i just gotta say that Adam is incredibly wise. I have fundamentally disagreed with him on a lot of things throughout listening to SB since the beginning (im agnostic), and I'm actually starting to see that his viewpoint on life, even as a theologist, which isn't exactly my dig, is incredibly well grounded. His experience in the church as well as otherwise just keeps showing me that he has such a wonderfully expansive view on the world and how people work. I always am delighted to hear more from his perspective. What a tremendous person. <3
Ryan (Kanserus Bone Saw) Bowdish
2024-01-20 05:30:19 +0000 UTCI feel this big time. Having two small children and constantly wondering if I'll live to watch them grow up is something i don't wish on anyone.
Ryan (Kanserus Bone Saw) Bowdish
2024-01-19 20:51:38 +0000 UTCGreat conversation, I really enjoyed it. My biggest fear about death is the acknowledgment of wasted time. My brother passed away a couple years ago and my mother has been losing a battle with cancer and it has really crystallized in my mind a futility of planning for the future. I've spent my adult life planting seeds for the future and I worry that I won't reach the harvest. The alternative is focusing on living in the moment but that can turn into a descent into egocentric hedonism. As for an afterlife, I embrace the unknowable.
Joylesstiger
2024-01-19 19:17:25 +0000 UTCI feel like even people who say they don't fear or think about death are probably piss terrified when the moment comes. I think the loneliness is what scares me too. Eons of nothingness sounds awful.
Ryan (Kanserus Bone Saw) Bowdish
2024-01-19 16:38:58 +0000 UTCI'm just really hung up on tombstone picture
Oliver Allen
2024-01-19 16:37:18 +0000 UTC
