Full Draft of My Video on Suicide Forums
Added 2023-01-16 01:10:34 +0000 UTCHi everyone,
This one is not a video I ever expected to be making but events unfolded in such a way that I felt I had to. The opening of the video will explain everything.
However, before you watch it, I have to issue a trigger warning that the video alludes to some seriously dark subject matter, including suicide, murder and sexual assault.
I'm posting this draft now (which is still missing some graphics and polish in the final quarter) in order to get your reactions early, which will help me tweak a few things before posting on my channel. Thoughts would be really welcome for this one.
I'll likely release it on Friday.
Thanks,
Martin
Comments
For the moment, this link is private. Apologies. Need to keep it from spreading too early.
Tantacrul
2023-01-19 14:58:20 +0000 UTCI think this curiosity in an inevitability, I’m personally curious on an education standpoint as well, but I know saying it can be damaging. It makes sense to tell a smaller group, but in a roundabout way that may encourage people who want to know for malicious reasons to simply subscribe to the patreon for said information. I’d be concerned about conversations about these methods appearing in the comments of youtube as well.
Eric Morse
2023-01-17 19:00:41 +0000 UTCI don't know if I should raise it honestly, but I will say, at 18:58 some might say that it would be best to not use the term psychopath there I'm not a mental health expert, or someone who's been diagnosed or suspect that they are someone with psychopathy, but I know of a few people who really dislike the term being used to describe people, however given the context, I don't know it's something to think about maybe
Sandwich247
2023-01-17 16:12:25 +0000 UTCfor sure! It's just not always perfectly implemented, and through no fault of YouTube, it's literally impossible to monitor all the content they host :)
Arya Afshar
2023-01-17 09:29:00 +0000 UTCVery challenging video, which I'm really impressed by how you handled. Two things sprung to mind: firstly, I wonder if the content warning goes far enough. It might be worth cutting the video there and having text to make the themes very clear. Hbomberguy did this in the vaccines video and I think it worked well - it sets the tone, as well as being clear to those affected. Certainly, I struggled to watch this video without it being an issue for me specifically. Secondly, I believe Musescore is at FOSDEM next month. If you're on the stall, be aware people are going to want to speak to you about this video. It'd be worth you and your colleagues having some idea of how to have those conversations and how to refer people who need help.
Mike
2023-01-17 07:12:24 +0000 UTC(Apologies - This is a longer message than I intended) I wouldn't expect a Music YouTuber to write and produce one of the most thorough and thoughtful videos about suicide, but Martin- I'm so thankful you did. I admire and am encouraged by all your effort and active compassion in not only making this video, but hearing all the steps you and your friend took to try and help Bobby C IRL. Homage to you for such an exemplary expression of kindness, compassion and effort. You share where people can get help, but I wish there was a more direct call to action. What can people do to help get these bills passed or put more pressure on regulators or tech companies to shut down or block these harmful sites? Perhaps together we can make a real difference and make it harder for these sites to exist- because the posts from that psychopath Cake123 made my skin crawl thinking there's someone out there actively hanging out online ready to push those struggling over the edge. Quick personal experience: I'm disabled and have chronic pain that prevents me from working and doing many things I used enjoy and take comfort in doing. I've struggled with suicidal ideation and received treatment, but (long story short) leading up to the time of my greatest crisis, I already felt like so much of a burden to friends and family and didn't want to become even more of a problem by making them worried about me harming myself. It's easy to see how someone in crisis would turn to a site like this instead of asking for help. So, thank you again for taking the time and putting in the work to produce this when it would have been so easy to say "Wow. That's sad." and get back to your life. You're a good person and a great example to others. The world is a better place having you in it.
pthelo
2023-01-17 02:31:25 +0000 UTCGiven the time sensitivity of this video, I think it is perfect. Perhaps I can offer suggestion. After the initial goal of bringing the subject to the fore in an effort to positively impact legislation around the topic of toxic influence, this video may be one that comes up when people google for help dealing with suicidal thoughts. For them it could do with a bit of additional guidance.
Jan Prummel
2023-01-16 20:49:48 +0000 UTCThat YouTube policy is very well written. I've come across it before. Excellent resource.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 19:03:24 +0000 UTCI was looking for sources to include in my original comment too. This is their official policy: https://support.google.com/youtube/answer/2802245?hl=en&ref_topic=9282679 It outlines what is and isn't okay to discuss, but I remember an old reddit thread of a bunch of people saying their content was taken down or just under-promoted compared to channel average even though they felt they were not promoting it but discussing it. I tried finding the thread but couldn't. This is about tiktok: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2022/05/are-tiktok-algorithms-changing-how-people-talk-about-suicide/?comments=1&comments-page=1 It may not be fully malicious, more than it is a logistical nightmare for YouTube to monitor all content, so they would err on the side of caution. For what it's worth, I did find videos talking about suicide with millions of views, but they're buried deep between much more popular videos like "TOP 10 YOUTUBERS that committed suicide" and stuff like that :(
Arya Afshar
2023-01-16 18:45:12 +0000 UTCMy only suggestion would be to make sure the final video has links in the description to the relevant bills and sites that guide you in contacting your MP/congressperson, so that people can put this pressure directly. I've often used the word "antinatalist" to describe my own feeling that it is more ethical to adopt than to reproduce. I'm extremely disgusted by this perversion of the idea.
Anschel Schaffer-Cohen
2023-01-16 16:39:09 +0000 UTCThis video is really important. Thanks so much for doing this.
Paul Shanahan
2023-01-16 16:21:40 +0000 UTCOf course this isn't the type of video I expected from your channel but I think it's amazing that you did make a video about this because this is shocking. I never heard of anything like that forum, especially one that's not even on the dark web. It's always better to talk about things out loud and not leave subjects like this undiscussed. We always feel better after talking about things, even if it's only the slightest amount of relief to begin with
Dave Murray
2023-01-16 14:03:48 +0000 UTCvery brave , its good it's not music centric as it affects everyone although music composers work in isolation staring at dots on a screen for long periods it's recipe for dire mental health . I saw a documentary many years ago about a similar case, I think the encouragers got prison time. I thought we were past this but you seem to be on an unwanted crusade now, good luck!
Donall O'Donoghue
2023-01-16 14:01:45 +0000 UTCThe rational side of me fully understands why its unnecessary, if you did go into details then it would only be for shock value. And the irrational side of me is craving the shock, I want to know what methods are easy or hard in what countries. What is someone doing that takes balls? How speciffic are people being with their viloent instructions The argument for putting it in is "it won't be harming anyone because the people it could harm could easily just find it on their own anyway" and then the rebuttle is "if you're so curious and it's so easy to find it go do it" Although I am very curious about the mail order thing. Like did a crime happen here? What did you get that's illegal but some dude Is happy enough to just send in the mail. What did you do with it after? I think out of everything that might be something that is okay to show for more illustrative purposes. Although you may have recorded yourself committing a crime so you might not want to show it. Are there any plans to do more serious content like this on the channle? Or will you go back to the normal stuff and finally give us the fanille review? Which ever diriction you go, I'm here to support it. I think it's great when bad things on the internet or in games are criticized from the perspective of people who love them, rather than satanic panic pearl clutching bullshit of yesteryear. It's after midnight and I've had some melatonin so sorry in I'm rambling, but may I suggest you check out the channle "people make games" specifficly their vids on Vavles gambling BS and Robloxes everything. Your new vid reminds me of them and both of you are making absolutely great content
Keyford
2023-01-16 13:16:35 +0000 UTCI was thinking I might go into more detail about specifics on Patreon, although I need to think long and hard about that - because even though the group is far smaller than the wide world of YouTube, it is still potentially damaging info. I think I'd need everyone to vote on it before I'd feel comfortable. However, I can definitely go into a lot more explanation about lots of other stuff anyway - stuff that isn't dangerous to discuss.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 12:22:42 +0000 UTCThat was a great video. Hard to watch though, it took me about 2 hours due to how much I needed to keep pausing to gather myself. I saw you mention in anouther comment that they are hosted by Cloud flare, On top of Google and Microsoft. Would it be possible to add that CF into the video and possibly even a call to action? Several months ago they responded to the massive outcries against Kiwi Farms. And that backlash followed KF to other providers which meant for ages KF struggled to find a place to host. As I was watching I was very curios as to what some of the methods were, including the ones you mentioned as having long specific instructions. and also what the hell you managed to order in the mail. Part of me thinks that it might be good to un-redact some of that stuff to help get peoples attention, or more fully illustrate how serious this is. The other part of me very much knows that I only want that out of sheer morbid curiosity. And that adding it would probably go against all the well researched guidelines when discussing this topic. And that no matter the context, any exposure to methods risks copy cats I think the video you have made is great. Its a thing that most people probably know in the back of their minds is happening on the internet. But have no idea how accessible or brutal it is. This is a very sudden shift in your channles content but please keep up the good work
Keyford
2023-01-16 10:39:32 +0000 UTCProps to you for doing this! We desperately need more people like you in the world!
Micaela Puls
2023-01-16 10:09:34 +0000 UTCYeah, I did wonder if you'd not mentioned it because "discuss the complex relationships surrounding death" is (a) somewhat outside the limits of a YouTube video that's not hours long, and (b) a distraction from raising awareness which is clearly the main point you're intending to convey.
HashPram
2023-01-16 10:06:32 +0000 UTCI did actually have a whole section about assisted dying and how that is very different. In the end, I felt it was too much of a deviation. However, I do feel somewhat similar to you on the matter.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 10:00:09 +0000 UTCWell that was a tough watch. I've periodically struggled with suicidal ideation since I was a teenager so this subject affects me quite strongly, especially (like now) when I'm having a slight relapse and needing to draw on all the things I've learned over the years to get me through it. I still remember the bewilderment I initially had when I was much younger and began experiencing these intrusive thoughts for the first time. Back then I was far more isolated than I currently am and sites like this would likely have had an appeal had the Internet been anything other than a proof of concept. Although it's difficult to say if I would have gone ahead and killed myself I can say that things said with malice will often come to the front of my mind when I'm relapsing. These things aren't helpful to say and they often have ramifications far beyond their original context. As far as Cake123 goes, I don't know if he's a psychopath or a malicious idiot but he certainly seems like he's not having his views checked either by the site admins or people who don't inhabit his nihilistic world view. I can think of a few choice things I'd like to say to say to him but there's no way I'm seeking that website out: I'm not _that_ stupid. One thing that occurred to me on the legal side of things is that this inherently tricky area is made more so by the concept of assisted dying. Personally I'm in favour of assisted dying as a humane way of ending one's life when it's truly over and there is no hope of getting better (I'm thinking of cases such as terminal cancer here rather than the mere perception that one's life is over that occurs when you're in crisis), and so whatever legal solution might be proposed to prevent the wilful encouragement of people in crisis to end their lives would need to have one eye on assisted dying. Anyway, for all that it's a difficult subject to cover - because it's an emotional topic and because just discussing it at all can seem like encouragement if done poorly - I thought you gave it decent treatment.
HashPram
2023-01-16 09:51:14 +0000 UTCThanks Arya. Could you provide me with a source for 'shadow banning' channels that discuss online harm / suicide on YouTube? I'll be honest that this is on of the things that worries me a lot.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 09:37:08 +0000 UTCMartin, I’m constantly in awe of you. Not only are you extremely intelligent and skilled at what you do, but I’m equally in awe of your compassion and emotional intelligence. To take on this topic as someone who makes the content you normally do shows me that you truly care for it, and I have nothing but the highest of praise for that. I want to be you, and that’s a hilarious thing to think as a 32 year old and not a teen 🙂 I find it ironic that someone who is living every day has spent years telling others they should take what they call the “easy way” out. People like that should face criminal charges. I also think one aspect of this topic that is worth mentioning is how it’s discussed elsewhere. You mentioned how Google should reconsider indexing websites like that. Barring that, there’s another thing they do which I think is fuelling the flame with websites like this, and it’s not alone in this. Some of the most popular social media websites today expressly or otherwise, forbid content that encourages discussion around these topics. I’m not talking about discussions that encourage them, but just accounts of people who went through with it, or seriously considered it, or people who were close to a victim of these things. The very mention of suicide can get videos taken down on TikTok or “shadow-banned” on platforms on YouTube, and I’m curious if they would the same thing to you for publishing this video. I would love to know if this video would get as many impression on YouTube and if it will be as widely viewed as the rest of your work. There are therapists out there who could be publishing useful content around these topics to help young teens and others to cope with this, especially people without the financial means to seek help, or living in countries where this stuff is considered taboo, and it seems like social media has issued a blanket ban against their mere mention. This is why new terminology is also developing amongst the youth when discussing these topics. As a young Iranian living in a country that forbade my passion of making rock music, I thought about it constantly as a teen, and many of my people in the underground scene did it. The thing that ultimately pushed me to continue soldiering on, was hearing about people who thought about it but ultimately got past it, and seeing my best friend’s family fall apart after he did go through with it and took his own life in 2005. I now live in Canada where I’m allowed to pursue my passion and I still do, and despite having failed by many metrics, I still consider my life since those days of planning it to have been extremely worth it. To think that there are videos like this, or others, who may discourage a young teen from taking their life, and those videos are actively or covertly kept from so many viewers, is a massive crime and tech companies need to learn to fall in the right side of it. To also then learn that Google is forbidding content around this topic, or rape, or murder, from their own platforms while indexing and providing easy access to harmful content hosted elsewhere is truly infuriating. In terms of feedback for your video, I don’t have much. It is as thorough, well-researched and beautifully articulated than your other work. All I want to offer is help, in any way you need it, working against these websites.
Arya Afshar
2023-01-16 09:18:47 +0000 UTCYes, I think that's essentially what stops them. They worry that it would make them 'editors' in the traditional sense. I guess this is why the problem has to be sorted out by governments. The site is banned in Germany and Italy and it does save lives in those countries.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 09:18:01 +0000 UTCWorth mentioning that I'm not going to monetise this video. I won't be mentioning Patreon either.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 09:16:47 +0000 UTCDon't feel bad about the nitpicks. Might help me clean it up before release. Thanks!
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 09:14:42 +0000 UTCThat's fine. I need to go back over the vid and find the little weird bits and edit them out. Appreciate it.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 09:13:55 +0000 UTCMy understanding is Google don’t moderate because any manual moderation would make them liable for anything they then don’t moderate.
This person's name is too hard to pronounce
2023-01-16 07:48:41 +0000 UTCThere is no True Christian Values Lobby that is going after suicide encouragement sites, so things might as well not change.
eSyr
2023-01-16 06:20:52 +0000 UTCthe passing of my sister has placed similar topics to the forefront of my mind, and i do honestly believe there's so many small legislative additions that could save many lives. my family have been actively pressuring the government for a Duty of care for university, which unbelievably do not have one. (link to petition https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/622847) similarly, I'm hoping the online safety act will assist in this basic human right to not enact harm on others. i do have concerns with the videos, mostly how front loaded a lot of the site related information is. its a long video and i worry that placing so much of the negative examples and explanation of the site at the start, maybe lead to some seeking the site before having the more optimistic ending on seeking help and reform, from the end of the video. it commendable how well you've done to remove terms of idolisation from the video. without it coming across as patronising. it is VERY likely this video will be demonetised instantly, curious if you've considered alternative ways of promoting videos.
Duncan Abrahart
2023-01-16 06:18:31 +0000 UTCI wouldn't lose any sleep if these sites were taken offline by a sustained combination of trolls and DDOS attacks. As for subscription access to this kind of info... Surely there's a way to apply pressure to payment gateways to blacklist these guys. If going after the payment processors was so existentially threatening to various adult websites, surely THESE guys will fold up immediately. I think you're right about the psychopath and murderer suspicion, by the way. Thanks for making this video. This has to have been difficult, but this kind of investigative journalism and consciousness raising is how movements get started.
Warren Garabrandt
2023-01-16 06:07:44 +0000 UTCMartin--not that it was an easy watch, but thanks for this video. It's a thoughtful, careful, empathetic, and effective treatment of a very difficult topic (and a heartbreaking set of immediate circumstances). I had a dim sense that places like this exist, and I'm pretty jaded at this point in my life, but I was nonetheless shocked to find out just how awful this one is, funnel to paysite and all. I think you should get this it into the world as soon as possible. If I had to make one (minor) comment, it would be that the very brief section starting right after "listen to them?" at 43:19 and going until the cut at 43:36 didn't quite seem commensurate with the other points at the end. Not that I disagree that people should be nice and give each other slack, but it seems a little bit disconnected from the topic (and I think that the "smile" line you quote from the IASP makes the same basic point but concisely and in the context of big steps vs. small steps, which I found more helpful). (For what it's worth, I noted the same micro-expression as @Mateo Ham and it didn't read as a smile to me, more like an expression of pain--which I think @Mateo Ham also saw in it--although if there's an easy cut point earlier you could trim it).
GC
2023-01-16 06:06:28 +0000 UTCAt some point, caught a thought to find that forum; not sure how to cover this topic without nudging a certain part of the audience towards it (not to say that this might as well be the same part of the audience that is deaf to assurances that "it will get better"). The note about removing online presence hurts, both from archival preservation of content perspective, and preservation of a memory about persons perspective. Overall, this is a very important video, hope it will help to save lives.
eSyr
2023-01-16 05:58:57 +0000 UTCAs everyone else, just want to agree how good and considerate work you did about such an important issue. Kudos for stepping out of your niche to talk about things that are really important to everyone. I watched the whole video. It can go as is, if you ask me. Thanks again.
Luciano
2023-01-16 05:51:57 +0000 UTChugely difficult but phenomenally important video. all the respect in the world for putting this together. to echo an above comment, this an incredibly considerate and compassionate look at the subject. thank you for this. any feedback i could possibly give otherwise would be meaningless nitpicks. it's so sad to see nihilism - something that can be optimistic, and something that has given me the agency to create meaning for myself *from* the nothing, even on the day to day micro scale - used this way.
msx
2023-01-16 03:42:52 +0000 UTCThank you for making this. You did a really good job of highlighting just how awful a place that forum is and the importance of taking action and I hope it makes an impact on the lawmakers voting on it. I noticed that during the video many of the posts seem to mention the fear of being forced into a hospital or an institution just for mentioning their feelings. I'm not sure it's even possible to address how realistic a fear that is given the breath of different systems and circumstances a person may find themselves in, or if it's even in the scope of this video to address, but the thought did occur to me. Also (and I'm so on the fence about this I feel bad even mentioning it), but I don't know how to feel about the very last couple seconds, where after you say "sometimes all it takes is a smile" and sign off there is the slightest twitch that looks like the beginning of a smile but isn't? I can see in your expression that this has been emotionally difficult, and I think that's valuable. The question I would have for others is whether it's just me being super sensitive to that micro-expression or if it happening so soon after mentioning smiles feels slightly strange? Maybe cutting it just before that? Again, I feel bad for mentioning this. I do not in any way want to detract from the amazing work in this video and it's importance. I'm so glad you're putting this out there and I really hope it takes that forum off the internet for good.
Mateo Ham
2023-01-16 03:34:13 +0000 UTCSo I after finishing watching the video, I have a few thoughts to share. Overall I think it is excellent, there are a couple little editing moments here and there but I am sure you are aware of them. First I did want to list some of the things I think you did particularly well which I personally appreciated: - You never give the website direct marketing by naming it. - You never actually describe a method. - You don't needlessly use euphemisms for death. - You don't waste time playing devils advocate or debating things that don't need debating - you call out things that need to be called out immediately. - I think you do a very good job of ending with a practical and supportive message that doesn't come across as condescending or out of touch. The only problem I foresee is that although it is a very good essay, that is considerate, empathetic and well expressed, I personally don't know how or to whom I would share it with considering the nature of the subject. - Do you think perhaps there is space for a call to action for people like me who aren't the specific target of your message, but are motivated to help it reach others who might? I think if something like that was included, it would be helpful for the well meaning viewer who isnt necessarily the potential victim, and can help bring more attention to the conversations we need to have as a community. Finally I just want to say that I can't express how extremely furious I am that the bottom line for all of this appear to be a simple extremist grift. In my opinion users like Cake123 are deliberate, malicious actors who are seeking harm to others for their own ideological reasons and benefit to themselves. It would be a very good thing for people like that to no longer feel they can behave in such a way without consequence online. I wish you all the best with the release and I hope it reaches the people who need it most.
Alex Mader
2023-01-16 03:22:21 +0000 UTCCompletely understand. Was kind of thinking out loud. Probably too big of a rabbit hole for the video anyway.
Ryan Heldt
2023-01-16 03:00:55 +0000 UTCThank you for making this Martin. I think this is the best possible approach to covering such an awful reality. The level-headed and no-nonsense appeal to basic humanity was the right move. I appreciate the time sensitive nature of getting this out, but I hope you’re able to get some space from all this once it’s done. I can imagine the immense toll covering such darkness must take. Having dealt with a similar panic you experienced and the feeling of being too late - it’s just soul crushing. Thank you for making something that will be positively impactful out of such an awful discovery.
Jack Paschke
2023-01-16 02:56:45 +0000 UTCThey host on Cloudflare. Credit card stuff is more complex, since it is taken care of by a separate forum. I decided not to go too deep down that road because it would be impossible to properly unearth it without naming the place and the people, which would be dangerous for viewers and which would take us into potential libel territory. I felt it better to stick to the one forum - but at least mention the shady looking financials. I agree this is one part that feels like it can be expanded on but I'm going to leave that to others.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 02:52:54 +0000 UTCHi Martin. Dark subject matter, indeed. Sounds like it was well-researched and written. Thank you for bringing attention to this issue without giving the site in question any attention. I'm sure it's been explored, but what company is hosting this forum? Who's their credit card processor for the subscription service? Free speech is one thing, but coaching some confused kid on how to "CTB" and profiting from it is beyond disgusting.
Ryan Heldt
2023-01-16 02:48:15 +0000 UTCThe site alone is horrible, but the fact that they try to sign people up to subscriptions (that will stay active after death) before getting them killed is another level of messed up.
rebane2001
2023-01-16 02:32:21 +0000 UTCHi Martin. Wanted to give my first <10min impression before watching the rest of the video. So far it I have found it very clear, and considerate. I appreciate the shift in your delivery to facing the camera directly, which I think is very appropriate considering the empathetic nature of your argument and the video's purpose. That would have been very hard to do but it comes across as honest and sincere. Probably important considering a lot of viewers might best know you for 'Sibelius jank' etc. I will continue watching and let you know if I catch anything or have more thoughts.
Alex Mader
2023-01-16 02:28:21 +0000 UTCVery important video. Very well done, given the time constraints.
Michael Schmidt
2023-01-16 02:23:54 +0000 UTCThis was an exceedingly difficult video to watch I'm at too much of a loss for everything to add anything that you should include or change in the video That they're no doubt getting kickbacks from it all while harbouring serial killer types As someone who struggled almost daily with suicidal ideation since primary school and has lost several friends to suicide, I was always vaguely aware that places like this would exist, but it still makes my blood run cold It's heartbreaking to hear about Bobby C, I'm devastated for their family, you, your team, and your community I've been in that position before and knowing it's too late just breaks you for a while Thank you for making the video, it's super important I'll need to try and watch it again in the morning just in case there's something
Sandwich247
2023-01-16 02:04:55 +0000 UTCJust finished this — so sorry to hear about everything. Thanks for making it, I really hope it amplifies the discussions and helps some people escape the forum
Trevor, Vanquisher
2023-01-16 02:01:10 +0000 UTCI should mention that there's a ticking clock element to this video, since the first draft of the Online Safety Bill is about to be voted on on Tuesday and the US bill is supposed to be debated soon too. I want to help push on reform as much as I'm able to, so am aiming to get it out ASAP.
Tantacrul
2023-01-16 01:14:28 +0000 UTC
