Early Access Video: The Ancient Wooden Twin-Screw
Added 2020-11-28 21:52:15 +0000 UTCFriends:
Welcome to Vise Squad #3! This week, I'm looking at the twin screw vice used by the famous Dominy craftsmen of Long Island.
It's an odd beast, simple in design, but costly to make and seemingly hard to use. I made the most accurate one I could and the results were....complicated.
There are a lot of mysteries in this one and there's still more work to do, but I've made a good start.
The holiday delayed this video a bit, but I'm sure you all understand. Enjoy the rest of the weekend!
--Rex
Comments
I don't plan to, because they cost a lot, require mods to the bench and don't seem that practical for woodwork....but if ever see a cheap one at a flea market, I'll buy it!
Rex Krueger
2020-12-04 23:31:49 +0000 UTCMy father purchased the original B&D workmate 79-001 in the '70s which I use to this day. That thing is awesome. It may be smallish but rarely do I need anything more.
Peter Dickason
2020-12-04 19:44:22 +0000 UTCBy the look of the mortise on the Dominy bench, my guess is that there leg vise was vertical, not angled like yours. This would limit the amount of clamping area, especially when dovetailing medium or large panels. My guess is that given the wide range of work this family did, I suspect that they were looking for a one size fits all vise. They may have built one bench with the twin screw, liked it, and then replaced the leg vises with the new vise for consistency between benches. While I think the shoulder vise may have been a better option, these did really start developing until the 19th century and would have required rebuilding the benches not just changing the vise. Other question Rex: will you be trying a new Pattermakers vise?
James Crandall
2020-12-03 22:21:52 +0000 UTCI'm wondering if they did away with the leg vise due to the strength limitation of the wooden screw. By having two with the twin screw, the forces on each would be halved, and thus less likely to fail.
Mark farner
2020-12-03 19:17:07 +0000 UTCSo you did. I had to watch it again.... Thank you.
Chris Hammersley
2020-12-03 18:25:03 +0000 UTCOr maybe they were just vise signalling?
Joel Hollingsworth
2020-12-03 18:06:53 +0000 UTCI'm pretty sure I covered that in the video. I think I discussed the differences for several minutes.
Rex Krueger
2020-12-03 17:07:03 +0000 UTCIs this the same as a Moxon? or is there something different in the Moxon world?
Chris Hammersley
2020-12-03 16:19:20 +0000 UTCThe SA supplement article provides the way to create the pattern to follow to define the threads, two start. You could glue rope or wire to the wood cylinder and with a thread chasing pattern attached to the router that cuts between the wire. then strip off the rope or wire and cut the diameter down enough to clean up the surface. A sharp tool could cut the thread with a lot of muscle power to turn the cylinder by hand.
Thomas Sutrina
2020-12-03 14:09:58 +0000 UTCIn joining the conversation I read about pipe clamps. I had copied of an article (put in the pipe clamp comment) I think that is the best choice to start with. the Yost Tool vise screw is 1" diam and 18" long, very heavy so two would be the weight of the two screw vise would be as much as the top itself.
Thomas Sutrina
2020-12-03 13:58:17 +0000 UTCThe best approach I first remembered that you could purchase from Sears decades ago. Search on the web found the same approach DIY style. http://woodarchivist.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/3437-Lathe-Router-Spiral-Cutting-Jig-f.jpg Not much help. Best article I found is 'How to Cut Threads without a screw cutting lathe or thread-chasing tool. by John Bergstrom in Scientific American Supplement April 16, 1910 The other option is
Thomas Sutrina
2020-12-03 13:50:15 +0000 UTCpopular woodworking magazine has an article with three vises using pipe clamp https://www.popularwoodworking.com/tools/pipe-clamp-vise-2/
Thomas Sutrina
2020-12-03 13:40:52 +0000 UTCWith a two car garage as my shop and the cars spend the winter inside I do not do much in the shop during winter. I will look at the vise as an end vise for my almost finished Moravian collapsible work bench. Needs to be removable because the top weight is the heaviest piece, doesn't need to get heavier shouldn't. (see the pictures in community stored and assembled)
Thomas Sutrina
2020-12-03 13:17:54 +0000 UTCI forgot that I'm a patron and that I could have watched this early, now it's set for to premier and I can't watch it early anymore and I'm way more upset about that than I should be. In the words of Homer Simpson: "45 second?! But I want it now!"
kevin o malley
2020-12-02 16:36:27 +0000 UTCI have no idea either why the old craftsmen liked this double screw solution, I just had one guess. If they _mostly_ worked with longer pieces of timber then the double support the two screw offers can be a big plus.
Csongor Halmai
2020-12-02 11:58:45 +0000 UTCI wonder if part of the answer here is that a famous, high-status shop would have an easier time finding apprentices. If I were entrusting a 12-year-old to set up workpieces, an un-complicated machine with high mechanical advantage and few options might be optimal, and if it takes a little more of the kid's time, maybe that (to quote Lord Farquaad) is a sacrifice I'm willing to make. I definitely wouldn't want the kids getting creative with doe's feet and holdfasts, and potentially marring up a good mallet against the iron parts of it.
Joel Hollingsworth
2020-11-30 23:21:11 +0000 UTCSame principle as the black and decker workmate, and other incarnations from other manufacturers. That relies on a twin screw method to clamp work pieces. Had the wooden portions been a little stronger they might have been more successful... I certainly relied on one to clamp wood, copper piping and a host of other materials over the years.
Andrew Waddington
2020-11-30 19:25:44 +0000 UTCThanks Rex, this was a great read reflecting my life as a woodworker. I made many quality pieces with the skill my tools gave me. Sold my house 11 years ago ending my hobby. I am retired now and live in a two bedroom apartment. Due to space and noise limitations I have embarked on a new hobby, hand tool woodworking. I’m not very accomplished yet but have visions of better things to come. You have played a big part in my learning. BTW, I lost my middle finger on my right hand in a table saw accident at work. A moment of inattention. I related to every word as I read your article. Thanks again Rex.
Susan Hugli
2020-11-30 19:08:01 +0000 UTCHmm, I’m thinking it can’t be that much different from two holdfasts and a 2x4 . . . let us know how you feel in week or two.
William Allen
2020-11-30 19:06:09 +0000 UTCThat vice is a monster! Great vid!
Ben Ericson
2020-11-30 17:19:54 +0000 UTCPask also made a video on how to make your own wooden thread cutting tools. Very interesting stuff.
Ben Ericson
2020-11-30 17:18:25 +0000 UTCOk. I meant if I had a metal lathe.
Sean O'Neill
2020-11-30 13:58:27 +0000 UTCI’m certainly not trying to steer anyone away from the leg vise!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:51:57 +0000 UTCI only wish it worked as good as it looked!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:51:20 +0000 UTCThose all sound like great tips! Thank you!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:50:17 +0000 UTCI have no doubt they used these vises for gun repair!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:49:30 +0000 UTCThat seems like an effective and thrifty approach!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:48:36 +0000 UTCI’m sure your Record will be just fine!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:48:07 +0000 UTCHilariously, having a lathe doesn’t get you very close to being able to cut these threads. They are extremely hard to make by hand.
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:47:24 +0000 UTCI have to admit, I just don’t want to. There are already so many videos on the topic that I just don’t know what I would add, and there are so many vises that haven’t been explored. I think I’ll keep looking at those, but I do appreciate the vote of confidence. I’m glad to know you would enjoy my take.
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:46:02 +0000 UTCDo it!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:44:17 +0000 UTCI love that video!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:44:02 +0000 UTCEveryone seems to want me to make a Moxon vice, but for all the reasons you state, I just don’t find them that appealing.
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:43:45 +0000 UTCIf you want to look at _The Workbench Book_ by Scott Landis, he shows a number of old and very impressive methods of cutting these threads. Really, I’m happy to just buy them.
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:42:36 +0000 UTCMy pleasure!
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:40:13 +0000 UTCA good example is Philly planes: http://www.phillyplanes.co.uk/
Rex Krueger
2020-11-30 13:40:00 +0000 UTCThanks Rex, until you can convince me other wise I really like the leg vice. I scored a Stanley #4 plane from craigslist. I am still looking for free wood for making a workbench and the advanced shooting board. Man I really like your videos and plans!
Christian Bookter
2020-11-29 21:15:21 +0000 UTC:O O.O -.- O.O :O WOW! major avarice. I mean, just gorgeous. From a beautiful perspective alone I want one! aaaarg!
William Allen
2020-11-29 17:47:54 +0000 UTCHey that looks familar!
Brads Workbench
2020-11-29 16:47:02 +0000 UTCAnd nuts. 38 mm looks a little slim though. Form work jacks are thicker may be worth a try.
james hewson
2020-11-29 14:06:40 +0000 UTC"Pask Makes" has a good video on using a scaffold jack for making wooden threads
james hewson
2020-11-29 14:03:10 +0000 UTCIf you can find Spring 1977 copy of FWW (they weren't numbering issues back then) There is an article on making your own tap and die for wooden screws. I am in the the beginning phase of the process to make 2-1/4" screws with 3 TPI for a double screw end vise.
Fred Gosbee
2020-11-29 13:25:29 +0000 UTCRex check out Fine Woodworking #153 and Mike Dunbar's article on 18th Century workbench. It's copy of found in the basement(if New England the cellar:) of 18th Century mansion. It has this same vise plus a tail vise. Of course he uses it for Windsor Chair making. So I wouldn't be so quick to judge this vise.
Winston Stone
2020-11-29 12:30:09 +0000 UTCInteresting but I wouldn't want to pay out that much for the screws so I searched for a thread cutter that would do that diameter, over a £1000, ouch!
Mad Hamish
2020-11-29 08:02:09 +0000 UTCHey Rex, the key to using twin-screw vises is to put the board to one side and clamp that side down on it. Then back it off a bit. On those big screws, 1/8th or 1/4 turn would be enough. Then reposition the board to the middle of the vise and crank the other side down hard on it. When you need to reposition the board, you only need to loosen the screw you tightened last. There are spacers you can make to that is basically a series of 1/8" spacers hinged on a long bolt. You "measure" the approximate thickness of the workpiece with the spacers and put that on the other side of the vise to even out the pressure. But using the system I mentioned, they're not necessary. If/when I ever get my bench built it will have 2 twin-screw vises on it. One on the face and one on the end. Do I need 2? I dunno. I'm going to find out.
Michael Bennett
2020-11-29 07:17:29 +0000 UTCYou mentioned that the Dominy trades included gunsmithing. I built muzzleloading long rifles using two pipe clamps on pipes that ran through holes near the top of the bench and spaced about two feet apart. I can see that a twin screw vise like the one you made would work even better for building muzzleloaders.
Charles Hampton
2020-11-29 03:18:18 +0000 UTCNice history lesson...not sure about the vise. I have some new material to research now though:)
Kevin S Thomas
2020-11-29 02:35:04 +0000 UTCFunny enough, I have a twin screw vice on my bench, but with pipe clamps! Its slow, but I only spent 30 dollars on it. It works for dove tailing, jointing, and never racks.
Evan Askins
2020-11-29 01:45:13 +0000 UTCI think you did this just because I got a new to me Record 53 1/2 woodworker vise and I made a Moxon vise. Good thing I asked my wife for a new tap and die set for hard woods for Christmas. You are always just one step ahead.
Thrifty Woodworker
2020-11-29 01:06:38 +0000 UTCRex, thank you again. I never heard of the Dominy family. I’ll be looking them up. I appreciate the historical background. I have to admit, I’m kinda glad you ended up liking the leg vise better. When I build the joiner’s bench, I want to utilize the leg vise. I’d have been a little nervous if you said the twin screw vise was better. I have priced those Erie wooden thread products and that is way more than I could’ve justified. Of course, if I had a lathe, I’d try and make them. 2 thread per inch. Wow
Sean O'Neill
2020-11-29 00:13:33 +0000 UTCSince you mentioned the Moxon, how about a video about it?
Gregg Willis
2020-11-28 23:56:01 +0000 UTCThank you Rex for another interesting Vise Squad. I have seen these on pictures of old benches and they looked very cumbersome and slow. I can see they would work well for tapered pieces and wide pieces for doing dove tails and other end work on wide boards but would not be as useful as a leg vise or a quick release vise. Have a good week ahead, stay well and happy holidays.
Matt Evans-Koch
2020-11-28 23:33:11 +0000 UTCI think I would purchase two Yost Tools vise screw. The chain drive is interesting but to clamp taper stock the two screws need to be moved independent of each other. I would move the chain sprocket to be locked or unlocked into matching teeth cut in a ring put on top of the Tee casting for the handle.
Thomas Sutrina
2020-11-28 23:22:48 +0000 UTCJohn Heisz made a really cool twin-screw that is gear-linked and has an acrylic window so you can see the mechanism. It's a bit smaller and not quite as heavy-duty, but it is really cool! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnbY0eHZ0CY
Roth Bernstein
2020-11-28 23:18:16 +0000 UTCAll I can think of are 2 things: grease/dirt & worked in condition. The grease/dirt argument is obvious since you don't want it all over your work. My guess is the worked in feel thing is a personal preference kind of thing, sort of like a leather saddle on a bicycle. They seem like torture till you break them in (although I'm not sure if it isn't the person breaking into the saddle :) From what Richard Maguire says over @ the English Woodworker about his English workbench which has a single screw on one end & a guide on the other, the wooden screw gets better as it gets used. I can't say since I made a Nicholson bench a few years ago & only have a Moxon vise. And I can say from experience, the Moxon is really good for fine woodwork such as dovetails since it sits high on top of the bench. It's actually terrible for things such as planing boards as the weakest link is how you hold it to the bench top and moves all over the place. That's why face & leg vises are attached directly to the bench.
Tom Manseau
2020-11-28 22:53:04 +0000 UTCvery interesting hystorical reconstruction! i ahave to humbly say that leg vise, herein Europe, was never truly abandoned and...the big question: how did they build that gigantic screw mating that female parts? truly i cant understand
carlo pieracci
2020-11-28 22:45:28 +0000 UTCLove the vise series, Rex. And the history you have weaved in is really interesting. I had no idea about the Dominy family before your video.
Alex Lopatka
2020-11-28 22:44:23 +0000 UTCI like that you can clamp long or wide pieces really well with this vice, and I like that it easily accommodates pieces that are tapered pieces in width. I'm glad you built one so now we can all see whether the build was worth it, so thanks for doing that.
Robert A Carbo
2020-11-28 22:33:21 +0000 UTCHey Rex. In a completely unrelated point. You mentioned in a recent video there were high end wooden planes you had been looking at that where too expensive. Can I ask, what company makes them? Or where are they sold? Oh! And my theory on the vise is just that they did way more detail work if they are doing things like clocks, and they just really wanted the increased clamping power.
David Hamilton
2020-11-28 22:19:26 +0000 UTC
