Brutal Realism (Up-Late)
Added 2025-09-24 03:01:55 +0000 UTC
Comments
Please don't make this a daily pod, you will quickly lose interest and things to talk about and you'll become like every other insufferable radio show! Once or twice a week is plenty
Darien M
2025-10-02 03:38:24 +0000 UTCmore shawarma
Kye Blakemore
2025-09-28 05:00:53 +0000 UTCAli, I very much agree with your realist takes, but it is important to recognize and appreciate the values of humanity and emotion in foreign policy, not just for your own mental health, but because these are real things that do actually matter. I'd encourage you to read Gareth Evans essay "Good international citizen: the case for decency". Evans was Hawkies foreign affairs minister. You can tell he's a pragmatic yet genuine man when he writes on this topic.
luckycap5
2025-09-27 08:34:11 +0000 UTCYeah this episode had me worried about Ali. Normally he has these super spicy takes but justifies them super well. This one was just poor form. Mislav had you on the ropes with the most basic rebuttals, I just wish he had stuck to his guns. Bro Singapore works because it’s Singapore. Counties like Australia and Canada the last thing they need to be doing is cracking into Singapore style politics. I love ya Ali but get a hold of yourself lad. That all said love you guys. Definitely keen for more pods with just the 2 of you.
Christopher Jones
2025-09-26 21:33:43 +0000 UTCMost of the countries that recognised Palestine have been founded on or have conducted genocide in recent history. Don't underestimate how culturally significant it is that for decades we've been taught about it and acknowledged how bad it was. As some bright fellas on a podcast once pointed out, genocide is our eras cardinal sin. Appeasement would do more damage domestically and globally than the US's response ever could. If we can't stand up for what the people believe in because of the US, even when it's alongside likeminded and powerful allies, we appear far weaker than we actually are.
GBoker
2025-09-26 18:09:12 +0000 UTCI think we gotta stand up on this one. We can't be purely expedient. Otherwise with same logic we should flog fossil fuels til the cows come home etc. You gotta draw a line somewhere.
Joshua Thomas
2025-09-25 14:23:47 +0000 UTCIt is a fair thing to suggest that being cautiously pragmatic offers wider geopolitical avenues that may alleviate certain stressing factors when dealing with strong nations with ambitious leaderships that may not wish to play on friendly terms. It is fair to say that empire building is quite a tiny portion of our species' timeline with less than 10k years ago, nomadic tribes were the norm with more reasons to be friendly to each other under the seemingly invisible and yet deadly apparent control of the natural order. It is also with that strong social cohesion and a powerful pattern recognition brain that becomes the double edged sword that pushed human to wider community expansions and greater conflicts due to slight differences in culture and expressed phenotypes. We can't say we are the worst at global nation building, because we are the only one on the planet that has attempted in such scale. We are learning as we go. The question is that are we going to improve upon the mistakes we've made? However, as we are aware that empire building and global trades are but a drop of human history, we cannot simply govern devoid of compassion and basic moral codes for those two things were built into our genetics. I strongly suggest Ali to give Humankind by Rutger Bregman a go to understand why, despite entertaining the notion of pragmatism without "emotion" or "morality", can't fully square away Mislav's challenge to such governing method. Human beings are by nature, good and friendly. This is the reason we are here. Human advances weren't built through savagery and bloody conflicts. Our advancement are built through crisis and the drive to help those in need. Just because a small defective portion of humanity who assume power above all could satisfy their need doesn't means that we are all should put exploitation above all exchange methods. Those people in power are just as unhappy and depress despite getting everything they ever wanted. I understand why Ali is exploring this type of governance option. It would be incredibly stupid to challenge a strong bully when you are weak and alone. But instead of bending your knees to buy your time for your revenge, it is much wiser to change the dynamic and strategically poke holes on the bully's justifications for picking on those who speak ill of them, and when their stance have weakened and more people are individually expressing similar discontent, then you may resonate with that discontent to balance the playing field. I believe Albo did just that.
Dob WoLF
2025-09-25 08:52:21 +0000 UTCplease for the love of god let call-ins, would be hilarious
psychedelic crux
2025-09-25 07:55:08 +0000 UTCHonestly Ali... this is the first time I can think of that you've made an incoherent argument with contradictory statements. You guys spent a full episode talking about the prisoner's dilemma on an international scale. I'd prefer Australia to be governed by ethically grounded people than utilitarians (who also have ethics and priorities). We have an opportunity as a wealthy and educated nation, that is relatively peaceful to protest injustice in other nations, and build coalitions that put pressure on bigger hitters. To let a genocide go ahead without condemnation would be to loose credibility on the global stage, and be hypocritical in the application of domestic laws.
Putz
2025-09-25 07:19:00 +0000 UTCI did not expect ali to be saying this 'pragmatic' stuff about palestine. I agree with the idea that we cant affect stuff over there and ive even said that to defend labor before but even looking objectively looking at it from a nation building perspective its gotten to a point that i would disagree that its a net negative for nation building
Paulie
2025-09-25 06:22:55 +0000 UTCYeah but those were some exceptional circumstances, you can't really define a clear campaign on something like that. Unless you have a crystal ball.
Jarrod webber
2025-09-25 05:46:35 +0000 UTCCan we do call ins on Shawarma FM?
Shadofeelz
2025-09-25 05:17:48 +0000 UTCHell yea more shawarma
Amadeus
2025-09-25 02:26:07 +0000 UTCYeah, echoing the sentiments here, I think if recognition of Palestine cost Australia standing with the U.S then it didn't cost us a damn thing. Now it is another wedge that the Libs can fuck themselves over with and the Greens can't use that specific point against Labor. The Greens will probably move to Australia supplying weapons to Israel, but the recognition might go far with average punters. I think in your conversation about practically v emotions you're confusing it with lasting effects vs short term gains or playing the headlines. I agree that a longer term focus is preferable for governments to focus on, but Labor has a good track record of trying to focus on the future while giving concessions to present cultural concerns.
Barial
2025-09-25 01:39:52 +0000 UTCI think Ali is underestimating the emotional aspect of politics. Look at the swing the Canadian government had before their election, standing up to Trump single handedly changed the outcome of their election
alec cutler
2025-09-24 22:08:48 +0000 UTCMore of you two will be cool. We can't give up morality, being pragmatic, we might as well be robots at that point. A country that is pragmatic, with people who are also, is boring. There's no joy from that.
Alex Isaac
2025-09-24 12:54:37 +0000 UTCThe alp went into the 2022 election with recognition of Palestine as one of the values of Labor, and the reason Labor has survived is because of the party values. The timing I agree with Mr M on, it was just the right time. They gave a warning and Israel didn't back off.
Alex Isaac
2025-09-24 12:17:17 +0000 UTCYou also forget about country values. Yes morality isn't there but interest extend beyond material or power gain. Take Ireland that's has back Palestine with gusto because they hate colonising and occupation. So the value of Ireland that is in its interest is to work against Israel.
Andrew Stanley
2025-09-24 11:39:02 +0000 UTCUtility is a terrible way to do politics
Andrew Stanley
2025-09-24 11:20:05 +0000 UTCYou're forgetting about recognising Palestine is a movement with other countries. USA is isolating themselves and allot of studies want to move away from USA, we need multiples countries to do that. So it's a pragmatic utilitarian move to do so with other countries.
Andrew Stanley
2025-09-24 11:04:30 +0000 UTCThe benefit of recognising Palestine is getting it out of the news cycle
Andrew Stanley
2025-09-24 11:00:34 +0000 UTCMore Shawarma FM is a tick for me. I hope you two don't end up getting sick of each other though 😅
Emi
2025-09-24 09:18:41 +0000 UTCCan't wait for some more kebabs
Isaac
2025-09-24 09:09:12 +0000 UTCGroundbreaking stuff
Sam K
2025-09-24 08:25:44 +0000 UTCIt's called utilitarianism Ali, your reasoning is flawed as what is 'for the best' is entirely subjective to your worldview.
Sam K
2025-09-24 08:24:40 +0000 UTCI didn't know they allowed children on here
Samuel Hanman
2025-09-24 08:03:34 +0000 UTCBig fan of these sorts of pods for sure, but in the main there was a big point made about how there's more power in unions/collective action than in individual action. Australia didn't just recognise Palestine alone and at some random time, and yeah sure the action we and other nations took wasn't a great deal, but a step forward (within a group no less) is still a step forward compared to doing nothing or even taking a step back while all these other nations are "stepping forward" regardless of us
Samuel Hanman
2025-09-24 07:48:14 +0000 UTCThe Up Late is meant to be a bit risqué, funny, and entertaining in some way. Possibly the blandest episode. Ali you need to move this to your new pod. Yawn.
Shane Parry
2025-09-24 06:22:15 +0000 UTCThere was a line about defi (decentralized finance) which goes they repeat the mistakes from the past by insisting there was not a reason for it to be done that way. I think Ali is having a moment of recognising how difficult international media and communication has made morality. Why is Palestine the cause of a generation not Sudan (worst conflict right now by far) or the Ukraine? I don't know, but we are more powerless to influence Palestine's outcomes then the other two. One thing I would like to other Mislav's perception of morality, the Americans created the expectation of moral conduct by nations. They have given more, done more and invented more then any other nation. By such an enormous degree. I know none of you are technical people, but China has often struggled to conduct primary science in the way America did during the 20th century. Consider every component within 'AI', the maths was done at Google, the computer chip (GPU) that runs them was invented at NVIDIA, the data that trained them came from an internet built on American principles. The depth of complexity that is often not seen by people that don't interact with technology outside of consumer stuff. i think that Ali's recognition of the separation between individual morality and collective interest was really well described. But because America wrote the last 100 years, I think this conversation still misses that their expectations of countries behaviour is an American one.
al
2025-09-24 06:17:43 +0000 UTCCommon sense brigade strikes again
Robert McLeish
2025-09-24 05:31:02 +0000 UTCutilitarianism the podcast
Isaac
2025-09-24 05:29:36 +0000 UTCAnything that puts Mislav to daily work is a good idea 👍
FledglingErection
2025-09-24 04:24:05 +0000 UTC
