Online Toxicity: A Hypothesis (Patreon-Only)
Added 2025-10-23 18:18:47 +0000 UTCLet me know if it's worth making more effortful Patreon videos by liking/commenting so I can get an idea of audience
I'm not interested in drama, I am merely a passive observer of online dynamics 👀
References (in rough order of appearance)
https://www.experimental-history.com/p/an-invitation-to-a-secret-society
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPfW3bmePdI
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/MB_H2m0de3s
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2451958820300269
https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/full/10.1177/00332941221142003
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ar2LfeeKQc4&pp=ygUQamFjayBzYWludCBvbHNlbg%3D%3D
https://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/social-media-twitter-outrage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVqJMkZrdJk
Rethinking memes: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1yfny6e0-gs6PcI-fhZA-LxeKFJnUItxp?usp=sharing
Cancelling Comedians While the World Burns, Ben Burgis
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Sz40XPPtKQ&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3gZOt1Lo4A
Canadian department econ report https://drive.google.com/file/d/1pXe1vEKgTdI-s7lgBRo6QlBVmDSRk7Sp/view?usp=sharing
Various Destiny videos:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zf1IjlbQ33E&
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0iXsjWlryAc&
https://variety.com/2019/film/news/joker-critic-debate-joaquin-phoenix-todd-phillips-1203359213/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tuZRyP6Hgvc&pp=ygUham9hY3F1aW4gcGhvZW5peCByZWQgbGV0dGVyIG1lZGlh
https://youtu.be/DM5qBRwU5EU?si=CT15lDk2A6mE_6K5&t=2697
Comments
Thank you for this video! This was great and WILL keep me on patreon.
James Schoenster
2025-11-18 14:05:50 +0000 UTCI enjoyed the video and like the style of doing a video on a novel observation or synthesis of ideas. Personally I support on patreon because I think your content is worthwhile and so I don't need exclusive vids. If this was a main channel video I'd be happy with that. For me, it's enough that you are making interesting stuff.
Kirwin Hampshire
2025-11-17 01:40:08 +0000 UTCFinally got around to watching this, it’s so good. I agree with what others are saying about making your videos public, because I think they are useful for everyone. Although I can see how this one benefits from being private to avoid drama. I personally generally support creators just because I like them or for behind the scenes content and more improvised videos like you do. Great stuff.
Felixray
2025-11-12 17:23:20 +0000 UTCThanks for the info, yes I'm gonna do a short advertising this and I'll mention that!
Unlearning Economics
2025-11-12 12:04:57 +0000 UTCThis combo of straw-motte/steel-bailey really helped me process some of the toxicity that my dad would use to sour family discussion about his decisions, so thank you for that! 🙏
Moses McGhee
2025-11-12 07:12:09 +0000 UTCI'm generally more in favor of having your videos open/public. Having said that, I actually signed up for your membership because I got really hooked and didn't want to miss any of your content, so there's a contradiction in my statement. Perhaps I wouldn't have subscribed if everything were public. One of the reasons I hadn't subscribed yet is that, as someone from the Global South, I try to focus my donations on content creators from my region. I seek to avoid making donations to someone who won't be able to benefit much due to the highly disadvantageous currency conversion rate. When I saw that the membership tiers/prices were actually quite low, I became much more enthusiastic about supporting you! It might be interesting for you to mention the support tiers in a public video.
Laura Amaral
2025-11-11 13:59:14 +0000 UTCI loved it. I like how you tie your behavioural economics background into online social dynamics and it was definitely worthwhile a watch and reflection.
Samuel Byström
2025-11-09 13:13:35 +0000 UTCI subscribed to the patreon so that I could watch this video, I liked it and also agree that it was a good idea to segment it off from the regular stuff. I’ll remain a patron. And the tiers are suuuper reasonable, I have no expectation of getting much of anything at this level, it was just the idea of a gently paywalled community around the channel.
sam backman
2025-11-05 06:51:05 +0000 UTCI enjoyed this, but I would rather you focus on your public stuff. Im here to support your main content, not to distract you from it by expecting exclusive stuff.
Nick Desrosiers
2025-10-31 18:23:41 +0000 UTCReally enjoyed the video, I'm personally not at all hung up about getting any exclusive video content here, part of what I enjoy is sharing your videos with friends and discussing which I guess becomes harder with these "pay walled videos"
Christina Neary
2025-10-31 12:37:28 +0000 UTCI personally enjoy whatever you choose to put out, whether that is more or less scripted. That said, whether it is patreon-exclusive or (preferably) published for everyone, I would personally like to see either interviews or your own takes on topics that are important but maybe not as widely covered in the media. The slashing of scientific funding in the US is a big one on my mind right now, and the context of a gradual decline prior to Trump, with an evidence-based interpretation of possible impacts. That may not be exactly your particular area of expertise or interest, but educational content that may or may not contradict economic orthodoxies are what I'd like to see, especially of the topic is underserved in the media landscape. Just one patron's perspective.
Isaak Osterbur
2025-10-30 17:29:36 +0000 UTCI watched all the way through and really enjoyed it. Would enjoy more content like this.
Juan Sebastián Sotelo Espitia
2025-10-30 15:07:14 +0000 UTCI watched all of it and thought it was a banger worthy of the main channel tbh
Sarah H
2025-10-30 09:08:53 +0000 UTCI enjoyed it. Some of the concepts I've encountered before, but the casual style crossed with the well-researched style is enjoyable. The topic is not economics exactly, so I could understand if it might stick out a bit on the main channel, but on the other hand your personal style shines through. I've only recently become a patreon subscriber, so I don't mind this being posted elsewhere as well. If it's about getting as much traction out of every video as possible, maybe it makes sense to post a video here first and let your patreons discuss it with you for a week or two, before posting it on your main or secondary channel. I think with a patreon the size of yours, it's nice to feel like you can "reach" the creator and participate. A good way to enjoy some yummy parasocial interactions ;)
Jakob Bang
2025-10-29 15:10:56 +0000 UTCI'll plead guilty to glossing over the link between ne atheism and anti-wokeness as it was largely an excuse to play clips of 'owns' i.e. it was an aesthetic thing to show people examples. But there were quite a few larger creators who literally went from rational skeptic of rational anti-SJW. Off the top of my head, the Quartering, Geeks and Gamers, and Amazing Atheist (though he's since repented) show a straight thru-line. I think they saw themselves as rational and those who disagreed with them as crazy, so it was easy to watch compilations of crazed Christians and/or feminists and see them as similar. I do appreciate having a Destiny supporter in here to comment, to be honest. It's a big community and obviously, he offers *something* to people. In that Decoding the Gurus episode Matt and Chris were oddly impressed by him (I think they did overdid it but there you go). I actually think that his community is aware of the strawmotte (they'd just call it dying on a hill, and oddly congruent phrase) and might agree with this hypothesis were it laid out in the appropriate way. In any case, he's a product of his environment and it is absolutely geared towards maximising content. It's just a shame it has to be so toxic as that's why I tend to avoid interacting with him and people like him, hence the paywall on this.
Unlearning Economics
2025-10-29 09:53:05 +0000 UTCYeah I used to do that, I can start doing it again!
Unlearning Economics
2025-10-29 09:26:27 +0000 UTCI watched all of it and have to agree with the others that it was a banger and really enjoyed it. I would say as someone new to your patreon this feels like banger content I will for sure stay subscribed for, but I also like your main channel videos and am also happy with lower effort videos.
ValentineSmith
2025-10-29 00:01:40 +0000 UTCI found the video really interesting. I'm not sure I care that it's on Patreon rather than YouTube - as far as I'm concerned the difference is that it's harder to find here. I suppose others are probably different, but I see Patreon more like a tip jar at a favourite restaurant than an exclusive service. I do think easier-to-produce videos like this are a great way to get more of your ideas out there and engage with viewers in a way which might actually inform future videos. I'd be quite happy with a slight reduction in main channel frequency for a moderate increase in stuff like this.
Esther O'Keefe
2025-10-28 11:57:12 +0000 UTCI thought this was great, one of your best. Thank you 🫡 I appreciate why this makes more sense on Patreon than on YouTube (it would attract a lot flak there), but in general as a patron I'm perfectly happy with (and appreciate!) the informal 'some stuff I was thinking about' video blogs, and would support your work in any case
John S Durst
2025-10-27 20:15:45 +0000 UTCI think this video is excellent. I've been thinking about it while I've been on the social media I still use, and it's really helped me understand why I find so much conversation & engagement there to be unsatisfying. That said, like others, I'd say make the videos that you want to make & I'll be glad to watch them. I don't feel like I need extras (especially beyond those you already provide) to make being a subscriber feel worth it. One question, though: would you ever consider posting audio only versions of your videos? I realize the videos are important to the content, but I'd love to be able to listen while driving home from work & not have a video distracting me.
Will
2025-10-27 18:01:51 +0000 UTCI thought this was great, would love more like this
SynLynx
2025-10-27 15:13:23 +0000 UTCHey! Loved the video. I was very active on Reddit for a few years, and I quit about half a year ago. What you said really resonated with how I felt about reddit conversations after a while. And I think Reddit may be a good case study for this as I feel the quality of conversation there dropped a lot after they banned automatic moderation tools (they blocked API access). But I feel bad that you spent so much effort on something for what basically is a gated community. I'm paying because I love your main channel content and I want to support you, not because I want special access. In fact I tend to miss most patreon-only content, this was a bit of an exception. So my recommendation would be to just not bother. The only things dictating whether I stay as a Patreon or not are my finances and whether I still enjoy your content, Patreon and Youtube included
Pablo Miralles
2025-10-27 10:23:41 +0000 UTCPretty banger piece tbh. Definitely my favourite of the Patreon-only vids. With a little cleaning up this could go on the main channel. I wouldn’t mind that at all.
Eóin Dooley
2025-10-26 17:24:12 +0000 UTCThere's a response bias here. Anyone responding is already supporting you on Patreon. (There would be a different kind of response bias if you went outside Patreon and said, "Hey, here's some enriched content that, henceforth, I intend to hide behind a firewall, and I'm wondering whether I should charge you a ransom for it or just provide it for free.") Me, I like this heightened CGI value, though I admit that 1. I'm disciplined about my media consumption and have mostly absented myself from the environments that this particular video is about and 2. won't watch anybody's theorizing or synopses regarding online social phenomena if it's more than 19:59. I'm here for the economics (though that does limit your audience...).
Dan B
2025-10-26 16:52:59 +0000 UTCI like the greater effort patreon video more than the fireside chats, but I support you for the excellent content you have made on YouTube and appreciate your efforts to keep your content “perfect and pure” regardless of how much is on Patreon. I’ll provide some critique in the content as a new atheist and Destiny supporter. I didn’t follow the through line between the new atheists and Ben Shapiro except in posturing like Hitch. The two efforts are essentially different in that one represented genuine critiques of incredible claims (NA) whereas the other represents disingenuous critiques of credible claims (BS). I might have missed the point, but maybe worth detailing if this goes to YT. Destiny is a master of post hoc doubling down, and this is an outcome of engaging in a politically toxic environment where any apology is perceived as weakness. However, he openly works toward a better understanding and that better understanding informs his content and his debates going forward. He seems to be in a genuine arc toward informed political positions. Seeing that makes me sympathetic, especially under Trump as Destiny voices a constant, clear, and unapologetic perspective against the slide/fall into authoritarianism, which is needed for some on the left to stiffen their spines. That said, your analysis will inform my future consumption as your hypothesis is compelling.
dalrymps
2025-10-26 16:20:39 +0000 UTCThis is a really good observation that effectively a lot of content is just in infinite loop of straw man and mott and bailey. It explains a lot.
Nick
2025-10-26 11:31:04 +0000 UTCLike others in here, I also don’t need dedicated content to stay on Patreon. I’ve appreciated all of the exclusive videos you’ve done here. If a future one turns into something like this, higher effort and longer to produce, then okay, if that’s what you feel the topic demands. I also wonder if there’s selection bias here. If you never promised exclusive typical UE-length videos to Patreon, then the people expecting it presumably wouldn’t be in the Patreon hearing your question
Cameron
2025-10-26 07:20:45 +0000 UTCI have family and loved ones who end up angry at each other for the weirdest things, so I think of how to summon the fairy of productive disagreements probably a little more than I should. My personal experience with debates is that people in general have very hard time adjusting their positions due to fear of loss of face... and that isn't really that surprising. Debate as a format resembles a game; it has rules, as well as a winner and a loser. It works best when both parties are very knowledgeable about the subject and have crafted their arguments (and prepared for counter arguments) with care. The problem is that a party feels their 'win' should be acknowledged, and they should get clout or respect and all that good stuff. However, the other party can not be really forced to give that. This is very frustrating for both parties, who will eventually just start repeating themselves and/or insulting each other while waiting the other party to just gracefully bow out. Which actually happening is a very rare event. So it would be more fruitful to have a mindset of an interviewer when approaching someone with vastly different views than you. Your 'win' doesn't mean they will acknowledge their 'loss', let alone change their mind. If you talk to them, come to understand why they think the things they do and then tell them you disagree, it can end with that. And maybe it should. However, that is a human relations upkeep perspective. I have a legal background so when I think of 'debate' the first example is courtroom, and it might skew my views somewhat. Still, if the goal of the debate is to explore a topic and hone the arguments to their finest form, it's inefficient to to stop and think 'could they actually be right?' in every turn. That can mean giving up too easily, without all angles being discovered. The Joker review example was excellent, and I think it shows who the real beneficiaries of a debate are: the audience. The audience gets to decide who wins and who loses after the debaters have presented all they have. This game - like format tends to fail in interpersonal relationships, because there is no audience. Similarly it struggles in the internet, if (and usually when) the audience is too large and vague. /end of debate traumadump I personally like a little bit Patreon extra, even if I'm filthy casual and don't do bookclubs. I'm a whore for recommendations though, so I advocate recommendations videos. Be it books or podcasts or movies or best Simpsons episodes, and they can be rambly and short and weird.
Kahvitus
2025-10-25 21:40:45 +0000 UTCGreat video! I agree with the general consensus that I subscribed to support your content creation, not to get exclusive content, so I feel any video this high effort should be posted if you feel so inclined. While it’s a nice bonus to see the more chill videos you generally post here (and realistically, they help foster a parasocial relationship which in turn makes me more likely to continue supporting you), the book club is a much bigger factor in my subscription And finally, while I do like this video, I do hope the core of your content stays economics focused!
Sofia
2025-10-25 20:21:23 +0000 UTCDitto on everyone about enjoying the video and thinking this is a very useful framework. Why I subscribed to the Patreon is for the book club primarily but also because I wanted to watch more videos about economic theory. I want to learn more about each theory and their empirical validity.
Mr. Ninja
2025-10-25 13:36:08 +0000 UTCLove that last line, stealing it
Unlearning Economics
2025-10-25 12:14:23 +0000 UTCYeah, there is a big gap between ‘scripted and edited’ and ‘barely scripted and edited’. Partially isn’t a thing, at least not for me. Although I didn’t send it to a professional editor so I guess that counts.
Unlearning Economics
2025-10-25 12:13:56 +0000 UTCYep, will do so
Unlearning Economics
2025-10-25 12:12:12 +0000 UTCI think this is one of your best videos
David Seitz
2025-10-25 11:51:09 +0000 UTCalso destiny really makes me feel icky- like the worst kind of guy from uni/high school
Nopey
2025-10-24 21:11:04 +0000 UTCthis rocked dude - but ill keep paying without these sorts of vids ha
Nopey
2025-10-24 20:59:06 +0000 UTCEnjoyed, appreciated, and watched in full. With that said, I agree with others that I am totally happy with the more laid back, fireside chat-style Patreon vids that you've made historically, or even just supporting your bigger effort, thorough videos that you put on your main YT channel. I'm here because I appreciate your dedication to education, the clarity with which you convey your ideas, and the Simpsons references. If you keep doing what you've been doing, I'll continue being a patron, even without high-effort Patreon posts.
Alex
2025-10-24 20:55:17 +0000 UTCI really enjoyed this!! It is adjacent to Economics and shares a novel perspective. Exactly what I like to find on my feed!
Robert Hyman
2025-10-24 19:08:24 +0000 UTCI like bonus content, but I also like when anything this high-effort is freely available. I kinda wish I could send this one to some of my extremely online friends. It seems like you're able to say more sensitive, nuanced stuff on Patreon than on YouTube, presumably because you can assume more good faith in this smaller audience. I'd love to get after-the-fact patron-only videos that are supplemental to the main ones, adding your ideas that are too challenging to express or favorite segments that you ended up cutting.
Kim Dauber
2025-10-24 18:23:11 +0000 UTCAny video of yours that is of sufficient quality should be shared as widely as possible. Keeping them private defeats the purpose. At least in my opinion these videos have a greater purpose than just entertaining your patrons.
lazybane
2025-10-24 17:59:48 +0000 UTCGreat video. I 100% agree with this hypothesis and it's why I have stopped trying to argue/discuss/debate online. I've found myself having to unlearn this mentality that a person has to die on every hill for the sake of 'optics' or something rather than learning and deepening understanding through discussion. Thanks for putting words to this and developing this idea. I certainly felt called out by the 'online person' description haha. But seriously I think this should be talked about more. Online does attract a certain type of person and we should take that into account, especially when discussing things like echo chambers. Re: patreon videos, I love your videos and don't mind whether or not they are exclusive. I am just happy whenever you upload :) . If anything, I'm happier if more people see your work.
ac1d_TigR
2025-10-24 17:55:24 +0000 UTCI love your more in depth videos that deep dive into a topic. Whether they or patreon only or shared on main channel, it's why I'm a subscriber and the main content I look for from you
stephen rice
2025-10-24 17:21:49 +0000 UTCExtra content is nice, and I wont pretend Im above enjoying a little bit of drama as a treat, but I dont think extras are necessary. If theres gonna be more of it going forward, can you make a YouTube mirror for it, please? The patreon video player is a bit of a pain, but if theres a reason you dont want to, that's ok, too.
Lauren Woodring
2025-10-24 15:05:28 +0000 UTCseconded!
Kim Dauber
2025-10-24 14:29:07 +0000 UTCI support you because you present politically most relevant ideas objectively and backed by evidence - a rare combination. I hope you'll keep posting your videos publicly, because more people need to be educated on politics. Paywalling them would defeat the purpose.
Robert Peetsalu
2025-10-24 12:33:20 +0000 UTCSpecial Patreon videos not necessary.
Uri Strauss
2025-10-24 09:23:30 +0000 UTCnew patron, love the bonus vid. Already rewatched it 2-3 times, its a topic that has been on my mind for a while now and this is a v nice overview of it, plus adding to the discussion (the whole dance between strawman and motte-and-bailey) Slightly more polished, 30-50% effort patron vids is not smth i expect but i do admit, its super nice. Esp fair to do it as patreon-only if its a topic that require more leeway/good will from the audience
Yung Zatriarch
2025-10-24 09:21:32 +0000 UTCI really enjoyed this video thank you - I tend not to support people just to get exclusive content (and a few people I Patreon are explicit about the fact they don't make much of this) but I have to admit I do enjoy a more "fun" video (not to discount the serious analysis there was in here!) and when creators can feel a little more free to talk about some topics from behind the safety of the paywall (although interesting to learn it's not necessarily safe!!)
Dr Jennifer Burgess
2025-10-24 08:24:04 +0000 UTCI always watch all the patreon videos, I love more videos
Ryan
2025-10-24 06:09:25 +0000 UTCGreat video. I hope it you post it to YouTube.
Oct
2025-10-24 06:02:48 +0000 UTCThis puts a name to something I've noticed in even relatively well-behaved (off social media, but still online) discussions. Also, I'm in this video in all the worst ways and I don't like it. Regarding your last point: I noticed that this is pretty highly produced for a Patreon video. I'm not sure which parts take how much time. As far as I'm concerned, I would've been just as happy with a less produced video. But I suspect it's hard to make the same points with significantly less work and the "polish" that I noticed that could be dropped is relatively little work. I don't know. Either way, the just-off-the-cuff videos would work just as well for me. They might work even better if the goal is community building - feels more parasocial, after all ^^
Axel Wagner
2025-10-24 05:16:02 +0000 UTCI've been a Patron for a while and this is the first Patreon only vid I've watched just on a whim. Good video, definitely enjoyed it but I'd be supporting regardless for the main channel stuff and the book club discussions. :)
Ellis
2025-10-24 03:11:04 +0000 UTCOn the question of how to handle patreon videos? I am here just to support the channel as so many else have said, but also when my patreon bloats and i have to trim stuff down, i do often trim the patreon pledges that don't give me exclusive content when i gotta trim shit. So my desire vs my budget are occasionally at odds.
Anonymous ethicist, not a serial killer at all, just asking questions.
2025-10-24 02:49:02 +0000 UTCI will finish watching this later! However, 13mins in and I feel this video would hit well for students in philosophy or critical thinking classes (and more). One of my favourite classes at uni was about critical thinking. It focused a lot on fallacies and argument structure. This video would certainly appeal to anyone who is familiar with common fallacies. The cherry on top is your originality. Everyone loves learning about a new fallacy they’ve never heard of.
Joshua Shaw
2025-10-24 02:34:38 +0000 UTCi watch like all of your patreon videos, and will do for the forseable future. but i came here from your main channel. while i appreciate these i am here for the main channel vids!
Kitrana
2025-10-23 23:52:52 +0000 UTCSpeaking only for myself (obviously) I appreciate this additional content, but I would continue to support without it. I’m supporting you because I appreciate the depth of analysis. My three cents. (Inflation)
Paul Ditta
2025-10-23 22:59:50 +0000 UTCI would echo some of the earlier comments, I’m here to support you! Happy for your working just to exist anywhere that lets you survive capitalism! Great vid again!
Michael Morgan-Giles
2025-10-23 21:22:27 +0000 UTCI'm here to support you. I like the things you have to say and the messages that you put out there. I want you to continue to put those out. I don't need exclusivity, especially when I think more people should hear what you have to say. Also the book club is nice.
magik8ball
2025-10-23 20:43:29 +0000 UTCThis the first of your videos I've caught in a while. Sometimes it's hard to watched a video about nuanced economic ideas when the president is putting random tarrifs on everything, but online toxicity is something that's been on my mind recently. I think you made a lot of excellent points, and I'm happy to watch anything that peaks my interests here or on the main channel.
Connor Barham
2025-10-23 20:09:25 +0000 UTCGreat video. I think the idea has merit, as it connects all the things you mention in a new way for me, and I always like it when I get to think about something in a new way xD
Lexter
2025-10-23 19:37:50 +0000 UTCI'm here to support you directly, not for extra content:) I feel like the only time I'd "want" a video from you on Patreon is if it would never otherwise exist.
Marco Aslak
2025-10-23 19:37:18 +0000 UTCAs for your question at the end: brilliant video! For me, I‘m here to support you, don’t need extra content myself.
LIFEBOD
2025-10-23 19:20:04 +0000 UTC
