Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix pt. 2 (early access)

Just adding: the books are also written from Harry's perspective, which shapes how Snape is written about. In books 1-3, Harry is 11-13 years old and his view of the world is simpler than it grows to be. That colours how he perceives Snape and thus how Snape is described. When you're young, you notice the overtly bad ways people behave, but as you get older, there's more subtlety to what you notice. This is how I feel about the development of Snape's in-class behaviour throughout the books, anyway. Also, the way Snape behaves towards children of different ages is also likely to vary. The tactics an adult will use to bully a group of 11 year olds (usually straight intimidation and cruelty) will differ from the ones they use to Bully older teenagers, etc. This is something that I've noticed from school, with teachers who very clearly despise kids and their jobs. The younger students never stand up to them, so they can get away with being a lot more overtly mean. The older ones will fight back or report, so the bullying becomes a lot more "nuanced" and difficult to really complain about.

cs

Coming to this review a bit late, but personally I don't think the writing of Snape is inconsistent: I think he's an example of a character who is not necessarily a good person, but whose bad side impacted terribly on someone he loved (Lily), which caused him to live with irrevocable regret. Adult Snape is, on the inside, still the weird kid with father issues and a chip on his shoulder, but with the adult recognition of the fact that the way he chose to cope with 1. his hatred of his muggle father and 2. the ostracism and bullying he received from non-Slytherins, cost the life of the woman he loved. His desire to switch sides was solely based on this one regret, not because he's secretly a good person. But through this switching of sides, he is able to develop towards becoming a good person through the self-sacrifice required to be a triple-agent. He is cruel to the children and to Harry because he still harbors the bitterness of his childhood, and some attitudes die hard. But, nonetheless, he was working on the side of good because of his overarching regret and desire to make amends. That doesn't stop him from still being an arseh*le! He's a complicated person.

cs

I don't know about that. I like book Snape much more than movie Snape.

Hawwah

Yeah, u can tell, those are the most on point

I think you might've gotten the impression that magic was more prominent, more noticeable because of the whole DA thing as well. Harry teaching the his schoolmates for like half/ 3/4s of the year was pretty dope and many of them learnt spells they couldn't use before. Regarding the Voldemort Vs Dumbledore fight: I really enjoyed that in the movies too, but I still prefer the book version l think. While it wasn't as epic, there were some nuances the movie did not catch on. For example: Dumbledore was sort of being portrayed weak in the movie whereas he absolutely had the upper hand against Voldemort in the book. At least that's what I feel like.

Great point! And yes, I loooove the Severus/Sirius conflict in the Occlumency chapter. I remember being so bummed it wasn't in the movie, even though i totally understood why they would cut it. The tension is just portrayed so well and the way both characters respond (e.g. even just the basics of Snape getting softer and more still, Black getting louder and agitated) tells you so much about them!

I totally understand where NTB is coming from in terms of Severus Snape being poorly written (in books 1 and 2). He is a complicated character, but in books 1 (especially) he was already written from a childs perspective to be the typical villain/red herring until we get the Quirrell reveal at the end and realise Severus was on Harry’s side the whole time. Not to mention that the books are seen mostly from Harry’s POV (then an 11-year-old), so his childlike bias often colors certain characters like Snape, and if you pay attention to the way he is described in Harry’s eyes, Severus is written as ‘ugly’, ‘greasy’, ‘bat-like’ – all negative descriptions. If you hate a person long enough, that is all you see. But once you get to HBP (and I’m hoping you guys will notice this), there is a very important scene at the start with the Unbreakable Vow – notice in this chapter how Severus is described. Removing Harry from the perspective, we get a more unbiased view, and you’ll notice words like ‘ugly’ and ‘greasy’ are not used. This is why I believe the movies actually give us a more unbiased version of Severus, because we are not stuck in Harry's head from a written narrative. I really like Severus from OotP, especially, because we get a more, well, civil version of him, especially in the Occlumency lessons. I find these Severus/Harry interactions fascinating because although Harry does not practice this beforehand, Severus is seen giving somewhat of compliments during the lessons when Harry is successful. For Severus, that’s a HUGE thing. He shows concern when he asks about the dog in Harry’s memory, and Severus is the only character in this book who gives Harry an honest answer about the Voldemort connection before Dumbledore does. When everyone else is isolating Harry, Severus at least makes the effort to give Harry enough answers to satisfy him, and I find that really interesting. Given the private interactions with Harry during Occlumency and Dumbledore, these will be the truest version of Severus we’d ever get to see. Take him away from the classroom, his Slytherins, and the other Gryffindors, we get a much more human and complicated version, and I absolutely love that. I was hoping you guys would talk more about the Occlumency lessons and the Severus/Sirius conflict leading up to it but understand talking about him is a very sensitive subject, and can bring out the worst in the fandom, unfortunately! I can’t wait to hear your thoughts on Severus Snape when you finish reading the series! Loving your reviews! You guys are doing a great job!

Michelle Linardis

I think the reason the characters are changing Is because Harry is growing up and he can see more to people than just the surface. Concerning Umbridge, I'm not sure if it's book six or seven, but at one point death eaters are sitting around a table, and you may or may not be able to notice someone there...

Drizma

All I think they shoulda done, was leave the audio in. The reason they always give is that it was too heartbreaking, but IMO it should be heartbreaking

So I love Sirius's death in the books because you really feel all the confusion, anger, desperation, and pain alongside Harry. We are taken through some of the grieving process with him, so I do think that the somewhat confusing way it comes off in the books is apt. BUT I kinda agree with you about the movie version, too... when I saw the movies I was relieved at how they made it just very unambiguous- being hit with Avada Kedavra. I was able to just feel pure heartbreak as opposed to working my way through the "wait what even happened and what does this even mean" stage as I did with the book death.

alan rickman does a ton of heavy lifting for snape's likeability as a character. i think his performance is what made the character iconic, not how he was in the books.

This book was always one of my favs because I personally like the slow build, the political intrigue and seeing how our characters react and deal with all the corruption going on with the ministry, as well as their fear of Voldemort.

Anne

See, I don't buy that theory. There are enough hints in the books from Snape's dialogue about his working class background (which gets more detailed in 7th book) - the use of word dunderhead for example, or spitting on ground in PS. Those are hints to his class. And him absolutely losing it in Book 3 makes more sense when you think he believed Sirius is the one who betrayed Lily. Even his dialogue hints at it - "you would have died like your father, too arrogant to believe you have been mistaken in Black". The dialogue focuses on James' trust in Black getting the Potters killed. The narrative tone changed - that's all that happens.

Alan rickman was the only person who knew what's his characters fate would be. Rowling only told him to persuade him to accept the part of playing Snape. There were three people she were set on and that was Maggie Smith as McGonagall, Robbie Coltrane as hagrid and Alan as Snape.

Chloe

When you think about it, OotP in HP is almost equivalent to the ending of book 2 of a trilogy, which is often a less liked book of a trilogy, so it kinda makes sense that a lot of people have issues with OotP. Also, I 100% believe that JKR/Snape theory. OotP he suddenly gets SO much backstory, same with HBP and DH, when books 1-3 he's not as fleshed out. And the only difference between writing book 3/4 and writing book 5 is that the first movie came out and Alan Rickman initially didn't want to play such a one sided character. But JKR has said how much she wanted him to play Snape, and I think her crush on him caused her to adjust the character of Snape. Sure she may have said stuff about how she "knew from the start" but c'mon, what writer would say they changed a character because of a reason like this lol. I know that other people have differing opinions on this, but this lets me dislike Snape in peace :P I think you guys should be fine to do DH in 2 or maybe 3 parts. OotP was the longest book, and you guys did well to read it in two weeks! Though of course, if you need 4 then that's fine. Personally, one of my FAVOURITE moments is in the second half of DH and I was reminded of it when you were talking about Goblet of Fire, so it's been so hard holding back from mentioning it! Haha. Don't really have much to say for this book. I think it was a lot less mystery, more political, dealing with adults, dealing with press/corrupt systems, so it kinda takes a hard left from what the rest of the series is about - which is a lot of mysteries involving magic. Luckily HBP has lots of magical mysteries!

Heidi Liedtke

i agree, and also it's a kid thing to see everything in black or white. In the begining snape is written like harry sees him, all mean and a bit scary but the more he learns about him and grow up, the more harry's opinion about snape becomes complexe and so is the way his character is written.

Blobina Random

I think Snape’s character comes off as less evil in the later books because Voldemort has come back and he knows that shot’s going down. Before Voldemort came back, Snape was just a spiteful, spurned, vindictive asshole. After the mark starts showing up in book 4, he realizes that if he comes back, he’s going to be putting his life in danger to be a double agent. Also, later in the books m, Harry grows a backbone and fights back against all of his bullies: adults, students and family. I think your comparison to the strength of the ring in the LOTR world and Snape’s character evolving... i think snape’s becoming less overtly evil/vindictive is because he knows true, horrible evil is coming back and it’s going to be time to choose sides very soon.

Melanie P

The only issue I have with the movies overall is that they started making and releasing them before he series was finished. Therefore the movie people (and possibly Rowling herself) didn’t know if parts they cut were going to be extremely important to the story later on. For example, I remember book 5 coming out in the summer after my freshman year of college... I have vivid memories of reading that book on my beach (Lake Michigan) over the summer and the following winter, goblet of fire was released in theaters. I vividly remember going to see it and who I was with etc. so i agree that the movies are awesome and this book in particular was one of the more frustrating books because of how obstinate and irritating some of the characters were but there are some things left out (by no fault of anyone’s) that really felt more important in later books. I think that’s why the movie adaptations get progressively different from the books. Because they had to kind if retcon some thing and change things so that the story made some sort of sense because the producers accidentally/unwittingly left out important details that they had no idea would be important plot points. You’ll see what I mean as the books go on. Movie 6 isn’t quite as far from movie 6 but there was quite a bit left out that made movies 7 & 8 have to scramble to fill in the holes produced from the movie cuts. I love both the movies and the books. And I said in the order part 1 review, the first time I read this one, it was not my favorite but after finishing the series and rereading it, it has become one of my go-to listens when i need something. I love hearing your opinions and thought having seen the movies first. I obviously did books first then movies so my brain was able to fill in the huge gaps in some parts of the movies. And now when i listen to or read these books, i can picture the scenes with the actors and it makes it really enjoyable. Love you content. I highly recommend the “Pitch Perfect” trilogy as a future endeavor. It’s hilarious with great music and the actors are actually the ones singing the parts, so as a singer I respect the hell our of that production. Oh and they are amazing singers, not trash.

Melanie P

I like Snape too, but c'mon. A 11 year old child cannot start "enmity" with a grown man. And that's really not what happened. Here is the interaction: Potter!" said Snape suddenly. "What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?" Powdered root of what to an infusion of what ? Harry glanced at Ron, who looked as stumped as he was; Hermione's hand had shot into the air. "I don't know, sir," said Harry. Snape's lips curled into a sneer. "Tut, tut -- fame clearly isn't everything." He ignored Hermione's hand. "Let's try again. Potter, where would you look if I told you to find me a bezoar?" Hermione stretched her hand as high into the air as it would go without her leaving her seat, but Harry didn't have the faintest idea what a bezoar was. He tried not to look at Malfoy, Crabbe, and Goyle, who were shaking with laughter. "I don't know, sir." "Thought you wouldn't open a book before coming, eh, Potter?" Harry forced himself to keep looking straight into those cold eyes. He had looked through his books at the Dursleys', but did Snape expect him to remember everything in One Thousand Magical Herbs and Fungi ? Snape was still ignoring Hermione's quivering hand. "What is the difference, Potter, between monkshood and wolfsbane?" At this, Hermione stood up, her hand stretching toward the dungeon ceiling. "I don't know," said Harry quietly. "I think Hermione does, though, why don't you try her?" (Snape picks on him, belittles him and Harry finally, in his 3rd response quietly sasses him back. This interaction happens right after he begins the lesson with "Harry Potter - our new celebrity". He did not give Harry a chance. Let's not minimise Snape's flaws here. Harry looks like James except the eyes - that's enough of a trigger for Snape.)

I don't think Snape is inconsistently written at all. He is the prime example of "good is not nice". He is an epitome of a grey character - he is a traumatised man who is also enacting a cycle of abuse he is part of. In the Occlumency lessons, we get hints of Snape's home life (his father apparently shouting at a cowering woman, and Snape crying in corner - implying a domestic abuse situation at home and general neglect of child Snape) + the bullying. Snape's response to feeling powerless is to lash out (as we see him do with Lily here - he cannot touch James and Sirius, they are too powerful in that scene, so he lashes out at someone he can hurt: his once best friend Lily). It's similar to how he reacts as an adult: Harry is a reminder of James, but is also a reminder of the fact that Lily is dead - so Snape's response is to lash out. He is a spiteful, vindictive man, but he is also immensely loyal to Dumbledore and does protect Harry as a way of atonement. (So him smiling at bullying children is not out of left field or anything. It is part of who he is). The narrative tone may have changed a bit because Harry is growing older and is learning to gain nuance in how he sees the world. Basically, he is also part of Harry's lesson about adults: people are human. Snape is a nasty piece of work - but he is also capable of immense bravery and loyalty and is ultimately fighting for the Order, at the right side. As for Sirius' death, I personally prefer the books: Harry's reaction is agonising. I will admit that movie also does well here and I agree with you both that this movie understood the main story thread and stuck to it and cut accordingly. I am with you both that the movie is actually well done adaptation.

Oooooohhhhh ok so it's the first time I hear someone say that they liked Sirius' death more in the movie. Interesting!! I did like the moment in the movie when Sirius called Harry James, but for me that's about it. I think that the whole setup for the fight in this particular part of the Department of Mysteries (where the Arch was) was done so Sirius could die like this. Tragic, stupid death, an accident, could be avoided in so many ways. That made me so angry when I was reading a book, I cried my eyes out and I couldn't read another word. If Harry wouldn't be so stubborn, he would open Sirius' present and get the mirrors beforehand. With them, he could just communicate with him to check on him. None of this would happen. Then, Dumbledore could've just talk to Harry and explain anything, but he chose not to (btw I am a Dumbledore hater ok, sorry). Then, Sirius would have a chance if he wouldn't act so cocky while fighting and stand so close of the Arch. He died because he fall through it, not because he was killed by Avada Kedavra. It was written so well. For me in the movie it felt so meaningless, it happened too fast...and the Arch wasn't even needed there for him to die...

Mała Gosia

"written" she had a rough draft lol, if you want look up her notes and they're really cool.

Zach Winters

Snape’s inconsistently in the books is more so to do with Harry’s perspective. He’s getting older and can’t ignore certain things anymore, especially now that he has more of an idea of Snape’s relationship with James/Lily, but he doesn’t know everything. He is also still a moody teenager and is good at displacing his anger and frustration, as well as making assumptions for things he doesn’t understand (and usually being wrong about it).

jay luna

Okay, wow. I can read this a hundred times and it still brings me back so vividly to the first time I read it (even though I already saw the movie). It was like 3am during my freshman year, before the last 2 movie came out, and I was crying so much that I had to stop reading for almost 20 minutes

jay luna

I believe she had the final Chapter of Deathly Hallows written before publishing Philosopher’s Stone. She absolutely knew Snape was good.

Simone Poinga-Hill

So for the Sirius death scene, while it wasn't Avada Kedavra, it was closer to the movie adaption than you remember, I think it's more a matter of medium rather than writing/acting that makes it powerful. Watching your video I had agreed with your assessment that the movie was better, but reading this now I disagree. Here's the text from the book.: Only one couple were still battling, apparently unaware of the new arrival. Harry saw Sirius duck Bellatrix’s jet of red light: He was laughing at her. “Come on, you can do better than that!” he yelled, his voice echoing around the cavernous room. The second jet of light hit him squarely on the chest. The laughter had not quite died from his face, but his eyes widened in shock. Harry released Neville, though he was unaware of doing so. Harry jumped to the ground, pulling out his wand, as Dumbledore turned to the dais too. It seemed to take Sirius an age to fall. His body curved in a graceful arc as he sank backward through the ragged veil hanging from the arch. . . . And Harry saw the look of mingled fear and surprise on his godfather’s wasted, once-handsome face as he fell through the ancient doorway and disappeared behind the veil, which fluttered for a moment as though in a high wind and then fell back into place. Harry heard Bellatrix Lestrange’s triumphant scream, but knew it meant nothing — Sirius had only just fallen through the archway, he would reappear from the other side any second. . . . But Sirius did not reappear.

Andrew Hansen

"Snape is a poorly written character... he is very 1 dimensional" so Imma argue that point lol. These books are the POV of harry, and, in the first and 2nd book your given no real backstory of Snape relationship with James or his own childhood, however Snape hates harry just because to Harry's knowelgde at the time it because of his father who at the time couldn't do anything wrong. Throughout the books, Harry gets more information about the situation and even though his feelings about Snape don't change completely, his thoughts about him shift and hyperbole thoughts of him might've been tuned down since Harry understands the situation more. And It changes from I hate his man with every fiber to I dont trust him. Also James (not harry's dad) pointed out a good thing. That even though Harry was everything Snape hated he did it for the greater good teaching him lesson, and had good reason to be upset when Harry didn't pratice.

Zach Winters

Yeah it was very well done!!

Sorry James, but Rowling did know Snapes story arc. She actually based his character off a close friend of hers. If you remember back to the first book, it was Harry who started the enmity between them. His smart attitude toward Snape reminded Snape of James Potter. Couple that with Harry being wrongfully suspicious of Snape throughout that entire book and its a recipe for disaster. One more thing to consider is Snapes quiz to Harry - “Potter! What would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?” According to Victorian Flower Language, asphodel is a type of lily meaning ‘My regrets follow you to the grave’ and wormwood means ‘absence’ and also typically symbolised bitter sorrow. If you combined that, it means ‘I bitterly regret Lily’s death’. Sorry again James lol. Also I see that neither you nor ninetails put together that now that Voldy is back, the horcrux in Harry is stronger and thus having a much bigger impact on Harry's emotions. That is until the end where Harry chooses love.

Trav Gorin

Rowling did know that Snape was good from the beginning, she planned the out series out when the first book came out, of course some things changed such as Ron didn't die because she couldn't bring herself to that, but she planned it all out which I find cool. There is a book of her notes on Harry potter where she created a rough draft for the whole story. NEW SEGMENT :) Even though Snape was "nicer" in this book I look at it this way where although harry represent hatred, ( from James), envy, jealously (over Lily) since it wasn't his child. Harry and Snape relationship becomes more of Lupin, and Snape's throughout the series where they will never become friends but learn to respect each other for what they do/ have done. I know you watched the movies But i wont explain anymore bc it contains spoilers

Zach Winters

Hi guys! Not the biggest Snape fan here haha but I think the reason he is meaner in the 1st and 2nd book is because he just met Harry. When he saw a kid who looks exactly like his arch nemesis he thought screw this kid he is just like his father. But as time goes I guess he kind of comes into the understanding that ok maybe he is not 100% like his father and obviously he is always trying to protect him which now is required more than the 1st and the 2nd book as voldy is back. With regards to the movie adaptation I just wished they included the part where they meet Neville at St Mungo's (Speaking of which we didn't here you guys take about it). It would have been such a heart warming scene. The scene of Mcgonall vs Umbridge at career advice and also "have a biscuit Potter" 😂 Also the whole exposition part at the end. And you are right about when the side characters death hard. I read 7th book for the first time in 2007 and for the past 14yrs whenever I read the books I always cry at the part where Fred dies. But great review though guys. You guys make my Monday nights with these book reviews. Thank you. 🙏🏽

Eshi

Book 6 next!!! The best book in my not so humble opinion

Zach Winters

This book is a fantastic showing for McG! This one was the best book-to-film adaptation in my opinion, so I'm not surprised your preferences are skewed towards the film for some major scenes.

Joelle Schutt