Discussing Pre-Supported Models

Our testprinters often do that on our most active community (facebook official group) :) Check here for future pics about supports: https://www.facebook.com/groups/2289408814514005/

Artisan Guild

I don't see a real need for the supported STL for alot of the above reasons, but it would be great to get images of the test prints or such to get some hints on what angle and orientation the model was design to print in.

Brian Todoroff

Unless this is something you're doing for your own purposes and are simply sharing, I wouldn't spend the extra time on it, I don't see the purpose. You're going to receive a flood of "this file is crap. print failed" from those who don't understand different printers, resins etc require different supports. Your job is to be an amazing sculptor. Job done, I say. Leave some responsibility for what happens to your files to those who purchase them.

James Moore

Also, it would kind of depend on how things are oriented and supported.

Tex Tinstar

I think it would be great to have models pre supported, but you'd also need to have some things hollowed and others not so much.

Tex Tinstar

what about leveraging the community to share supported, hollowed models of your stuff... could be a slippery slope to losing control of your digital property. But, it could be cool to have an archive of supported models on a digital shelf. Maybe a tier for access to that shelf?

Dungeons Deep

It would be nice to have a test model to see how the supports will perform.

As long as they still come unsupported I don't care if you support a second set. Nothing is more of a pain in the ass then digitally removing supports that I don't want to use

Jared Zadorozny

I don't understand how anyone is really against this. Either it helps you, and you are willing to pay for it, or it doesn't, and you can ignore it. It isn't like it would take away from what they are designing, so there is nothing for anyone to lose...

Gary Messick

I don't see this being much help for me with my Ender 3, but I don't begrudge anyone for seeking it. If it helps others enjoy printing your sculpts without the quality or timeliness of your releases I support it.

Perhaps offer it free for a single month. Let people test it out to see if it works well on their machines and if they like the new option. This should alleviate the headache of dealing with people that pay extra and the supports don’t work on their machine or they don’t like how the supports are done in general.

Michael Fairley

I would love a pre supported tier. :)

I mean if this is just an addition, then its cool, but clean models are always better

Sheldon Venter

I don't need pre-supported models, and agree with many of the already made comments. On the other hand, if there's a model, that's easiest to print upside down (as an example), you should definitely mention that separately, always. One bigger question regarding this new tier would be, would people who select that tier still have access to the unsupported models? I could see some people occassionally wanting to print specific models bigger, or "even bigger" in FDM printer, in that case the supports should be re-done. And last but not least, a technical issue. When you save a project from ChiTuBox, it's sliced for a specific LCD resolution. This can vary from 854x480 (Longer) to (at least) 2560x1440 (Elegoo Mars, Prusa SL1). I don't know what happens, when you try printing a project, that's sliced for a different resolution. If it works at all, printing a project sliced for lower resolution is definitely lower quality. So either "ready-for-printer" files shouldn't be done, or should be done for several configurations. It might be ok, if this can be automated somehow. And yes, you should definitely stay away from crap like the mentioned Longer resin printer, due to the extremely low resolution :-)

Jupp3

My thoughts on presupports and the way the question is seemingly very divisive: It basically comes down to FDM vs resin. For FDM, presupport miniatures basically require that you are aiming for supportless models at the sculpting stage but can't quite manage it; so you add a couple of (quite large, specific) supports for those points. Anything more than that is pointless due to the large variance that material, printer and environment have on what your settings should be. Also, with presupported FDM files, you either have to add the support physically to the model (which means it will print using all the quality settings of the main model, slowing things down a lot) or as a separate model for importing into cura/slic3r/etc, which requires time and technical knowledge on the part of the user. For resin, the common printers (mars, photon/s, E1) are all structurally the same (more or less), enclosed (by nature, so limiting environmental effects) and resin choice has a smaller variance in supporting required, so presupported _resin_ models make more sense. What may or may not be useful for making slicing easier for everyone (and was something I was going to suggest in an earlier thread where suggestions were solicited) is cutting up the mounts / beasts a bit to allow for better orientations. Case in point - the gryph steed and the umber hulk* You basically want to print this near upright (for ease, I'm going to say 'up' is 'away from the build plate' so it means the same for both types) for maximising the quality on the model as a whole, _but_ you really want to print the claws (talons? hooves? whatever) upside down for the same reason. From my experience printing, while single (or minimal) part models are more appealing for some (reduces post-processing time), multi-part (even for non-modular models) are generally more forgiving to setup for supports and produce better quality prints. You are already doing this to an extent with (for instance) the separate bases, I'm just saying it could be taken a bit further.

Oliver Matthews

My only question is for those of us in the 'First 100', would we be able to add the $6 to our pledges? Honestly it would still be worth the $7 to just go to $16, but it would be nice if we could keep our First 100 discount.

Gary Messick

I am 100% in support (/wink) of this idea. I don't have enough free time, and my printer sits unused far too often, because I don't have the time to do the supports properly on the minis. I get 1 plate of minis supported a week. I have often though of asking Greg if I could buy his supported models, so YES, please. And even if they don't work for everyone, a simple this is known working on X printer, with Y settings, that helps. Especially if the models could be delivered in chitubox file, so they could be modified if need be, that would be extra awesome. I love Greg's videos on how to support, and I have used his settings and style, with great success, but it takes quite a bit of time for me at least. So yes, I would happily pay for it.

Gary Messick

They could do them for the majority of printers. Most people will be on a Mars / Photon, I think and therefore it would be easier to get the majority of patrons' machines. Obviously, if the files didn't work for someone, they wouldn't have to keep opting in for the service, but providing it for the majority of machines would make sense. Also, a lot of the resin differences relies on print settings, not supports. Meaning exposure time, etc. This is a GREAT IDEA

BennyMcSeoul

It makes sense to have you guys do it and get a few hundred patrons to give you a few bucks more than have 100s of patrons all do their own supports and spend hours on it. It helps if the artist does it and does their own test prints too. Pre-supported or supportless minis is the way forward 100%

BennyMcSeoul

I WOULD LOVE THIS. I was just bringing this up in the M3DM discord today... it's so nice to not have to do supports..... I would pay extra for it

BennyMcSeoul

I don't know if it's something I'd pay extra for, but it would definitely be a nice member incentive. I understand it's a lot of extra work though.

Sean Orlikowski

While I think pre-supported are an interesting choice, like many have said, there is NO STANDARD for resin printers. There is too much variability to make a 100% sure fire way to have it work for all printers and the multitude of resins and manufacturers used.

Greg Krywusha

Also, on a serious note. This is an option, sure. But I think it'll end up more of a headache for you in the long run. Any of the pre-supported files that comes out as a failure, or someone doesn't like the support scheme, or someone's printer breaks, and you'll be getting message after message about it. I don't want to discourage you, but I think that is a headache you really don't want.

William Koehler

I'll do all the support work for you. But I don't need a 6 dollar increase, I'll do it for 3.

William Koehler

I don't mind supporting my own models. I understand the desire to save time, but I don't think it's a service I'm personally willing to pay more for. Edit for clarity: I'm not saying it should be added to the current tiers... We already get so much from you for such a low price.

Paul West

I just hope the difference isnt really all that different.

Gonçalo Osório

Supports are pretty easy with your models. I would rather see other content than focusing on supports as it is a total non-issue. I feel that supports are something you should learn as an end user for the models.

Dustin McKnight

It would be great if you offer a piece by piece upgrade. I do my own supports, and usually quite successful with it. But if there were a model I was having problems with, the option to pay $1 or 2 to get a pre-supported version would be nice. I doubt I'd go with the pre supported tier, though (fixed income and all that.

Fred Bey

As a thank you to Greg for giving us a free supported test model I’d suggest you go and subscribe to his YouTube channel. A small and easy way to say thank you.

I would suggest splitting the difference here. The poll clearly shows a strong interest. However, a tier like this would probably present certain challenges and expectations especially if it costs $6 extra (e.g. that they work and tech support if they don’t). I’m one of the folks that wants pre-supported models. But I’d be perfectly happy with your test printers’ pre-supported files with a “use at your own risk” and “no promises” caveat. This would place little extra burden on your end would satisfy the people who want the files.

Chris Wainman

I think some, like myself, know how to do supports, but when you are a patron of 3+ patreons for dnd minis, the hours required for supports starts to pile up, not to mention painting piling up :/ I’d gladly pay $6 for 3+ hours of my time back

Kyle Standring

for you maybe, but not for others?

Greg Kourakos

lol it's about 100x better than that

Greg Kourakos

that's easy then you don't opt in for it :)

Greg Kourakos

on FDM the Cura supports work pretty well so it wouldn't be an option for FDM, this would be for resin only :)

Greg Kourakos

I have a bunch of videos showing just that on youtube to teach people https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHMELnHNMZE&t

Greg Kourakos

Greg, as in Greg from 3D Printing Pro? Hell yes

BeardMonster

I am surprised this is a large issue when their are many youtube videos on supports and model for every printer. Also I think the community has been very supportive providing printer profiles to help new 3d printer hobbiests. But I also think resin printers are a very different beast in terms of how important supports are to print failures.

Generalnuke

If you do a pre-supported file, I think it is important to mention which printer you test the supports on. Like my Elegoo Mars I find prints better with prints raised up a few mm of the plate while others I understand print fine in the build plate.

honestly if you plan on printing you really should learn how to do supports. this is an important part of 3d printing in general. I hope those who want pre supported will still look up on how to properly support prints.

Mzak

What about even just do some videos to offer how you would place supports on the model. Essentially focus on community engagement, you don't need to offer pre supported models, but can show others how you would support the model to get a great print!

Thomas V

I tend to print each model you make, and spend a good 15+ minutes (and that's on the shorter side!) on each one. I'd much rather spend my limited free time painting and playing than making the supports. I print them all in resin, which is a bit more universal. I don't know how you could support FDM with the different materials, models , etc... So just make sure that expectation is managed.

Daniel

Hello Jim! Unlucky too many printers and too many settings: this tier is probably not going to be open. But I have a good information for you: In our discord one of our admins makes spectacular 3d prints on fdm, and he's sharing his settings :) Please join and explain your problem, he will help you right away. https://discord.gg/7KwxYRj

Artisan Guild

I don't need it but I don't know why you would be against others having it.

SteveWasEre

What about having a place where the community can share these supported files with one another? I'm sure it might be tough to regulate for you, so you'd have to work the details, but I'd be happy to share after I set up supports. Seems fine to allow the community to do these within that month if so since you wouldn't be making additional income on it anyway as you laid it out. If you do the new tier, simply giving one "supported version" per model is not enough. There should be various version offerings for different viscosity resins and potentially various machines, etc.

I would not be interested as I make my own support and it doesn't take me a lot of time. However if making this doesn't take a significant amount of time away from your modeling and if you have enough people interested in it to be financially viable, I don't see why not. That been said, I am a bit suspicious that it will take you some amount of time, even if you are not in charge of making the support. You will have another member to interact / manage, and that alone, will take some time. So I would say this : maybe you could make a test run, and see how it goes ?

Moutet Pierre

I’d personally want a tester to try it out first. I can place supports etc fine but if a professional places them in such a way that the connecting points are hidden or easier to remove then it may be worth it.

Haha I thought exactly the same thing and honestly that’s what I am hoping for he does a great job!

Josh Blomquist

Personally I wouldn't want to be paying for Greg's support service. It's fine for beginners but I've learnt more about the printing process doing it myself that I ever would just watching his videos. You'd have to be completely certain that they all work with all printers and settings otherwise when people inevitably tear FEP or crack LCDs they'll be blaming you and your files.

DungeonTokens

I agree that this is a concern. It even depends on the resin, I once ran the same print in Elegoo Grey and Siraya Fast, and the one in Elegoo printed fine, the one in Siraya came off supports. Of course, the exposures were different for different resins, but they were both close enough to the optimum that the details on the prints were the same. Either one exposure was just low enough for supports to fail, or Siraya Fast is a bit weaker during printing (it's definitely stronger after full cure, but that's different).

Fedor

+1!!

Bernat Rovira Lastra

I am fine with this. I think $6 is a fine price point, assuming the supports are easy to remove and work well on the structurally weaker models. Gotta pay if you want a luxury service.

Stephen Rumer

I am all for the supports. But I also agree with other comments that $6 seems a bit high for a price increase. So I’d need to think about changing tiers rather than it be a no brained for me. My other consideration would be if they would print at 90% scale so the sizing is in line with other D&D miniatures. If you did this, a separate poll on sizing may be worthwhile to see what folks are printing at. In any case, if the price is +6 and I can’t print at 90%, then it would definitely be a pass for me.

Chris Wainman

"Pay a team member".... LOL .... PAGING GREG!

Dreadknot

Please don’t do this. If I wanted fat dragon game minis I’d buy fat dragon game minis.

Matt

We handsculpt everything traditionally, there's nothing to add frame/bones to

Artisan Guild

I agree with this for the larger models,

Kyle Standring

One thing I would recommend as being helpful would be to think about how the poses effect the way an object is printed. Fat Dragon Games uses less dramatic poses in general. When supports are required they are put in as a single post to avoid tons of support. I think that's an improvement. Something to consider

Chris

If you want to add a new teir I think if your models are framed/boned so that we can change or manipulate poses would be terrific. We would also be able to make them easier to print. But supports are always more the better but more cleanup.

Generalnuke

good option for newbies, good news is, that it will be just separate tier, rather than just plain increase in cost. In my openion it is the best way to take. For me, I´ll just stick with my early supporter badge ^^

David Tichý

I don't need it personally as I like doing that myself. But others would definitely appreciate not having to do it. I think adding another tier even with the $6 price is a good idea. The people who aren't interested don't have to pay for it and those who do want it will probably not mind paying the premium. Besides, it's always easier to lower prices than to raise them. Please don't feel pressured to offer this at a lower price or for free. This is NOT like the cutting room floor scenario where people would feel left out. This is just providing an additional service for an additional price. It's very fair especially since you will be paying someone else to do it. I think it's a great idea. Stick to your gut and don't let some of the people complaining compromise your convictions. Those people are not the ones who would be paying for this service anyway. Most patreons don't ask their patrons about this stuff. Just the fact that you do should show people that you are trying to be considerate of us.

Julio Ibarra

YES PLEASE!! If you account that you guys release like 8+ models a month, and legit manual supports take at least 20 - 30 min to do, that’s anywhere of like 3 to 4 hours of work for 6 bucks. If the supports are tested and legit, then it’s a no brainer YES for me

Kyle Standring

I know it's a long shot, but would this just be for resin? Could it be possible for FDM supported models?

Matchu Egan

Go for it! It took me forever to arrange and add supports to Baalzrodan manually in Chitubox for Photon. 5 print runs, mostly full beds, I won't touch autosupports...I'd guess and say it took me about an hour to prep the files all told. I'd pay $6 to not have to do that...heck yeah!

Lee Fletcher

I think its a fine price, if people don;t want to take the time to support their models. You offer SO MANY models in a month, to have them all supported would save someone hours. Well worth the $6 imo.

Phillip Kenney

I agree th that new tier, but for that price it would be great to complement the supports (for example) hollowing the prints (to use less resin). If i am 100% sure that it will be a not failed print and that i will save time and resin, i would apply for it

Bernat Rovira Lastra

we have volounteers testprinters at the moment. But for this we will pay an extra team member the difference (6). Anyway if it's something you can do in minutes you surely don't need to pledge for that tier :)

Artisan Guild

A couple of bucks? Yes. Six? No. You're talking about a thing that takes mere minutes to accomplish, once you've had a little practice. Given that you do test prints to make sure your models print correctly, isn't this something that won't take away from your modelling because it's something you already do as opposed to something you'd need to put a new person on?

thanks, that would be the first step for sure :)

Artisan Guild

I'm shocked at some of the people having mini tantrums about an increased price. Of course there would be an increased price if you are too lazy to set your own supports. WOW. I prefer do set my own, so not sure I should vote for you not to add the extra tier if some of your patreon supporters want them. It doesn't sound like it will affect me in the slightest. I will abstain from voting, seeing as I will still receive what I am already getting. I think it's awesome that you are willing to expand your services for those who feel they need it. Keep up the great work.

Don McLaughlin

A second Patreon?

Joe Kushner

Concerns of price increases aside, I'm sure there are member who would happily pay for supported miniatures. I've not imported a model using someone else's supports but I'm guessing if it wasn't tested on the same printer there may be issues (these machines a fiddly and that's before talking about resins).

Jon Hammersley

Just keep in mind, if you put out presupoorted models, and they fail because someone's printer isn't dialed in right, that are going to blame you. Majority of people will always look for someone else to blame for their own failures. I don't need them, but more power to those that do.

Tim

Don't see any harm in it. I'm still learning supports myself so I can guess many people struggle.

Ashley Beech

Before offering this tier, I recommend you test how universal your support settings are. Post one of the supported models as project files or STLs, maybe several that have substantial differences (one wide, one tall, one with a small footprint) and ask patrons to print them. If it turns out that the supported STLs don't work for many patrons because they are tuned to the printer of the person who makes them, the extra tier will be more trouble than it's worth: people who pay $6/month will expect that the models are printable as-is or with minor tweaks.

Fedor

You might want to check with your Merchants on this 3d printing techniques is part of what they sell. Also 3d printing files are different optimization depending on the printer so it makes sense that this is a separate teir.

Generalnuke

I’m all in on this. $6 is a little tough to make sense of when the lion share of the work (the sculpting) is only $10. Seems a bit high to me personally.

Ryan

Completely unnecessary.

Ryan Tangen

I think this is a great service. I have a ton of models from artists. One of the artists I support does this and frankly those are the ones I print the most. I have been holding printing alot of models because it means i have to get the supports together.

Brian Etty

it would be interesting if the new member also had the opportunity to go back and add supports to previous months. Not sure how you'd charge separate for that but there's probably a decent market for that too. Not just the going forward months.

Mark Cauley

This patreon is always up to some hustle for more money. Starting a second patreon, a Kickstarter, asking about higher paid tiers. Your sculpts are cool, but your business practices leave a bit to be desired. Why not try to keep your 2000+ supporters happy instead of trying to squeeze a little more cash out of them?

Kevin

I would certainly never turn down the offer of getting a model that already has the supports. Seems like most of my time is spent trying to get supports set up correctly. This would be a big time saver.

ajaxrex

IMHO you should add to the current tier maybe not to all, but for those hard to print (you must know since you test print your minis)

I personally like doing that myself, but if there are people who do, than you guys are awesome for considering their needs.

Ray Chuong

If all that would be done is hitting the auto support button in not interested

BeardMonster

I think this is a great idea, for MAYBE $1 or $2 EXTRA per tier. $6? No way.

Wil

As long as every pixel is supported so I don't get random bits floating fun my vat I would pay for this in a heartbeat. I spend too much time supporting models

BeardMonster

The only reason I’d be hesitant about this is due to the fact that different machines treat supports differently. I use pretty specific support settings that work well with my Machine but might not with another. It’s a little daring to have a single support setting to hopefully work across all machines.

Rory Donovan

This is an awesome idea. I’ve got a lot of models since I bought my printer and can only print 1 or 2 per week because of how long it takes me to support them. Having some pre-supported ones should help me a lot.

Diego (Tecu)

I dont personally need it, but having another tier that Some would prefer, I vote yes then for them 🙂

Drae Acevedo

Congrats Greg! LOL

I don’t need it. But that shouldn’t mean you shouldn’t offer it.

Keith Bonham

Yes and I think it should be included in the merchant tier

Marie Rowland

I have had a lot of failed prints (especially the vampires) that I think are to do with support issues so I would welcome this

Martin