It’s Not Complicated?

You're buddies with Sam Seder, ask him to have a private chat about it.

James

Tim did make multiple story posts supporting ceasefire recently and he said he's educating himself. Hopefully with some of the resources people posted here.

Amine

❤️

Amine

Right on.

KELSEY HALE

Tar take. Annihilating the Palestinians in a land grab is simple: it's disgusting. If you need to look at the history in order to see the genocide unfolding in front of your head in focus, the historical context only lends clarity to the situation. The Israeli state is doing what it's done for 75 years: moving indigenous populations off their land so that they can have it. Period. When stateless people without a military fight back, its called "terrorism". When States so it, we call it "self-defense". One state solution guaranteeing equal rights to all-comers, regardless of ethnicity or religion. Free Palestine.

KELSEY HALE

Hey Tim, here is a relevant short-ish vid w a great interview entitled "Why Israel Palestine Is Not Complicated" please watch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qBjp350byT4

Miguel

I'm with you on this Tim ❤️

Zack Zack

Recommend well read Dr. Gabor Mate, a Holocaust survivor take on this conflict, he looks permatoasted and will relax you with facts: https://youtu.be/SHDBw-wx6w0?si=gph2Ct9v0ooA3gE5

Zack Zack

Have Abby Martin back on, she has devoted so much of her life to this specific cause, spending time on the ground in Gaza and making an extraordinary and thoroughly illuminating documentary on the subject.

Miguel

This history is complicated. But the current situation is political with no symmetry. That part is not complicated. One side has rights ( a govt, US financed and supplied military, economy, etc), and the other has zilch. Seth Rogan seems to be the only Jewish person in Hollywood with a grip on reality. The world stands with Palestine.

KD

Of course the Israeli state as it is currently should be dismantled--and I don't understand why it's controversial to say so. Does any sane person mourn Rhodesia? Israel is an ethnostate that requires a Jewish majority to be maintained. That means suppression and ethnic cleansing of Palestinians as we see time and time again. It should be one secular state where Muslims, Christians, and Jewish people live side by side with equal rights. You can can roll your eyes and call it a pipe dream but that's what Palestine was before the violent advent of Zionism. But the details of how we achieve that isn't the most important thing at this very second because there is a GENOCIDE happening right now in Gaza. Perpetrated by Israel and allowed/bankrolled with our tax dollars. Well over 5000 dead, mostly women and children. Instead of pontificating about whether it's "complicated", the most important thing we can do is demand a CEASEFIRE from our bloodthirsty government https://ceasefiretoday.com/

Amine

If it’s anything at all, it is complicated. But such is life. It needs to be sorted.

Christian

Makes sense with the way Tim walks all over him, sits on him with a nice rocking chair

Tim Erbes

See, but “it’s complicated” is ironically ITSELF a simplification that aids fascism! Most of my life, all people ever told me about this was “it’s complicated,” i.e. “none of my business.” The reason to challenge the “it’s complicated” narrative is that it is used to diffuse the hard, straight facts that one group has power over another here.

turbinity

The “idealism” in this case is “recognizing a racial caste system.” As many others have said, the SPECIFICS are complicated: the morality is not. Israel is an ethno-nationalist state. Period.

turbinity

what idealism? the idealism that demands our leaders stop military and financial support for a genocide? what are you even talking about?

nawtrobar

when people say this isn't complicated, they don't mean that the particulars of the political situation aren't complicated. They mean that there is no moral dilemma here. The zionists colonized that land to form an ethno-nationalist state at the cost of the people who were living there already. Now they're just finishing the job. it's called genocide. it bums me out to see good people being so generous to Israel.

nawtrobar

https://soundcloud.com/chapo-trap-house / any streaming service / patreon

Jonathan Olson

My anti-Bibi, Israeli-born but living-in-the-US-for-50 years mother-in-law recommends "One Palestine Complete" by Tom Segev to understand Palestine during British rule, before the establishment of the state of Israel: https://www.amazon.com/One-Palestine-Complete-British-Mandate/dp/0805065873

Strerve McAlvoy

Great post, Tim, I always enjoy reading your writing. (I've been a writer myself for the last 12 years -- but for the fucking tech industry -- now basically being forced out of my career in favor of chatbots, gonna go back to school and become a mental health counselor and just try to never think about tech again.) Your comments about tech bros were on point. During my time in the industry, i worked my way up from data processing in a data factory eventually to a senior management/consultant position, and at no point was it ever cool. Being a technical writer sucks, and even when I found my most recent job where I got a lot of respect and freedom to work my way, that hardly lasted due to the industry's random layoffs that decimated the group I was working with. (The one saving grace -- when I was landing this job about three years ago I was also interviewing with Twitter. Thank CHRIST I did not go work for Twitter.) As for Israel/Palestine - of fucking COURSE it's insanely complicated. Look, I stand with the people of Gaza, I think it's absolutely inhumane to make people live that way, but as you say, this is an extremely thorny historical situation that is probably pretty tough for the average young Israeli to figure out with all the propraganda they are washed in by the right-wing governments there. Sam Seder recently pointed out that if Yitzak Rabin hadn't been killed (by a Netanyahu fan! back in the 90s!) we would have had a 2 state solution and this shit would be at least in a better place than it is now. The problem about Israel is you can't really go back in time and undo stuff... The questions about whether israel has a "right to exist" are silly, because the people who were born there have a right to exist, just as those born in Gaza should have a right to exist, and Palestine should have a right to exist. But people really bog down the conversation by making it seem like a simple yes/no good/evil proposition and you really nailed that with your comments here. Thanks, helped me process stuff myself. Sorry for the long response.

Heath Gardner

I suppose "just" would've been a better word. And no, I'm not suggesting anyone else die. But, you know, ending the apartheid and ceasing the relentless bombing would be a great start.

Randy Faucheux

Mind sharing a link?

Chalameybe

Club Verdi is a beautiful venue. I really enjoyed the set last night. The SF problem is complicated for sure, I will say, you walked down the absolute worst part of the city as far as the open drug use goes. Some thoughts I've had include: I think each person has their own unique story as to why and how they ended up in SF doing drugs openly and deserve help regardless, full stop. I also think other states with harsher drug laws make SF a destination, which feels like a national problem being funneled our way. Last, mental illness and the unhoused population are linked way more than I hear most people acknowledge.

James payne

Also, Chapo's episodes on this have been as on-point as ever, despite Matt not being involved. I hear his health is trending in the right direction which is so great to hear.

Jonathan Olson

Thanks as usual for your very thoughtful writing, Tim.

Trav

So glad you reminded me, and thanks for pinpointing the episode. Lots of unexpected vulnerability that was allowed to breathe for a sec amidst the Donald Duck/diarrhea stuff.

Chalameybe

Eggers? Verdi? You sure it was lunch, T? I re-watched HyperNormalisation yesterday and sanity checked myself re: the tragic cycles over the decades. If any of y'all haven't seen it (Adam Curtis doc that Tim led me to), go discover it, be sure and add the movie title to your spelling dictionary now. Also, it's one of those films that all spouses/partners/kids/parents will enjoy regardless of the setting.

Chalameybe

OHL Episode 157 an Israeli guest shared his perspective on the violence that occurred there in May 2021 (and on the cycle of violence in the region). It's worth a listen in light of recent events.

Seth Deysher

and humans seek religion to deny the complexities of their existence

Stu Walker

must rec the Citations Needed podcast (on patreon & apple, spotify, soundcloud), a self-described "podcast on media, power, PR, and the history of bullshit", and the new album Caravan by folk/country singer-songwriter Cactus Lee, put out by Aquarium Drunkard

Blake Buesnel

I think "complicated" is an awkward word for it. There is definitely a lot of nuance here that most people are unwilling to get into and binary thinking is absolutely not the answer. There aren't "teams" and this isn't fucking high school football like so many are treating it. And yet, it's really not that "complicated." This episode of Some More News from 2021 is probably worth watching for anyone who thinks it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INCXqWzH5vk In the end, genocide is genocide. In my humble opinion.

Jonathan Olson

“Absolute liberation of Palestine is the only practical solution, but obviously that's easier said than done for numerous reasons” … do we have a different understanding of the word “practical”? Also what do you mean by liberation? The forced expulsion or slaughter of the 7 million Jews in Israel or something else? Very practical!

Strerve McAlvoy

https://mgouldhawke.wordpress.com/2023/10/16/against-the-destruction-of-gaza/

Fanciulla

I fully agree with those solutions, but they seem very complicated to enact!

Shane Mendez

It is complicated. Overly simple narratives, thought-killing slogans, fanaticism, and violence go hand in hand. Tim, ever heard about or read Amos Oz? Arguably the greatest Israeli novelist. His novels are excellent (“My Michael” might be the most famous). Some are not explicitly about the conflict but it’s always there. He also wrote a short book called “How to Cure a Fanatic”. His political thinking is largely about the need for compromise, peace, and imagination in the face of fanaticism. His Wikiquote page is good: https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Amos_Oz “I am a great believer in compromising. I think the only alternative to compromising is fight to the death on any front, on any level.” “The left are people with an imagination and the right are those without an imagination.” From his obit (he died in 2018):
 >”It's [the two-state solution] a very, very complicated arrangement, but definitely preferable to the living hell in which we have both been existing for a century now," he said. "It's important to drop the sentimentalist dreams about a sudden burst of love between the parties, about an unlikely honeymoon after 100 years of a deadly conflict," said Oz. "The best we can expect is a painful divorce…and no one is moving out."

Strerve McAlvoy

Democracy Now's been platforming good voices with lots of knowledge and direct experience with the Israel-Palestine situation. Here's a recent interview they did: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rvvAQjXxKJA

Angelo Mike

I've heard that movie was butchered in the edit but I dunno I seen it in the cinema on release and I just cant ever go near that ever again '^_^ I also don't get your point since it's heavily fictionalized and known to handle Islam in a very post-9/11 way. I dont fully recall I jsut remember feeling ill watching it and trying not to throw up my popcorn. It's a total five bagger though, as all movies deserve to be.

ToddUmptious

Actually more housing will fix homelessness and rent control too and wages raised to a liveable standard, it’s not that complicated, other countries have fixed this

Peter Fishbeast

As the great Neil Hannon once wrote in a fantastic song about the last recession. Money makes the world go round, and round, and round and down the drain. Whats depressing is it's not a new revelation, it's one as old as money itself and people have been saying it for centuries. Unfortunately living in a capitalist run society has certainly made it much much worse and encourages people to act on their worst whims cos gotta get me dat money.

ToddUmptious

I think your acknowledgement of the nuances and layers to the situation signals an open mind, which I appreciate. I do believe that knowledge is power and that staying aware helps us stay afloat. Two more adages that I think that drives the heart of the matter home for me would be "Money is the root of all evil" and "You can't take it with you". I found it artfully illustrated in Netflix's "Fall of the House of Usher", which is not only well acted but examines, through a morbid lens, the consequences of wealth. Hot issues they touch on include: Perdue/Opioid crisis, Monsanto, misogyny, animal testing, AI, the Murdoch spin room, hedonism. All complicated. All related to money. That may not be content you were looking for, but it personally helped re-affirm for me that the society we live in runs by money, and so many of the problems we have come from its misuse, from down the street and all the way to Israel. Resisting the machinations is all we can do and will do. Thanks for lending your voice.

lilula9

I wasn't trying to "defend" religion or say that art justifies it or argue for its "net positive" effect. I was saying that religious belief (which I'll define as the total investment of one's psyche and personality into something that cannot be proven empirically) should also be considered "complicated."

Willie

Alright, I'll answer your question but then I'm done here, ok? On a micro level, obviously it's not a simple situation. Humanity is complicated, and the further you zoom into anything, the more complicated it becomes. But if you zoom out to a macro level, it's actually really truly not all that complex of a situation. One group of people moved in on land that was inhabited by another group, decided they wanted it for themselves, and over the course of decades, stole the land, committed mass violence against the people, and rounded up those who survived into conditions very similar to concentration camps. They're walled in, can't leave, and the occupying group controls their electricity and water, and the occupying group has continued to do inhumane, abhorrent things to the occupied group. Of course there are nuanced details if you want to get into it, but at a base level, knowing that genocide and apartheid have been occurring for ~75 years is enough for a basic understanding of the situation. I never said there was a simple solution. I said that the situation is simple at a macro level. And it is. It's settler colonialism and ethnic cleansing. And after decades of that, the rise of counter-violence is the predictable and expected outcome. Absolute liberation of Palestine is the only practical solution, but obviously that's easier said than done for numerous reasons. So while I maintain that understanding how the situation was created is relatively non-complex, I would never make the claim that there is a simple solution to such a fucked-up situation, especially considering the way it's become a global issue that involves the majority of the rest of the world in various ways. But I do think if everyone in the world has a baseline understanding of the situation that isn't hard to understand, it would be much easier for us to come together and figure out a solution. But I'm not idealistic enough to believe that's possible.

Randy Faucheux

Wait for streaming so you can take a pee break and not miss anything

EKB

Life is definitely complicated. More housing won’t fix homelessness. People have always lived in the fringes of our society, especially in big west coast cities where the weather is better suited for sleeping on the sidewalk, but as we are all slowly realizing, it’s now “getting bad”. While I respect a new approach to use “unhoused,” that’s just another agenda. My anecdotal personal experience with homeless people is usually a mix of desperation, mental illness, and drug abuse. Usually all three. Drugs are really cheap right now. If you’re confused, lost, hurt, and wounded psychologically, drugs are very seductive and an amazing way to cope. The pattern is then set into motion. I have family who, if not for their safety net, would be living in a tent smoking fentanyl appearing in Fox News b-roll. Seems likely a broad swath of homeless people are totally on their own, and lacking the skills to function in this fucked up, unfair world. But let’s not pretend they’re all innocent angels. We certainly don’t make it easy for people to climb out of poverty. We do fund programs, however, but asking people to work jobs where they see the absolute worst in humanity day after day is a very tall order. It seems to me we shouldn’t ask police officers to mess with unstable homeless people. I think violence and mental instability is a problem that should be addressed before it crosses a pissed off LAPD officer’s path. Other people had this idea, but they called it “DEFUND THE POLICE” which is a stance that is DOA with regular Midwest people who have no skin in the game and see L.A. as a warzone thanks to cable news. So do cities need to fund more homeless centers? If they do, there’s usually a zero tolerance policy on drugs, which would turn away homeless addicts, and they’re still dirty, dangerous, and depressing. Then how about government funded rehab? Those places don’t work on people unwilling to get treatment, and are usually home to easy access to drugs. So what’s a plan that could be put on a bumper sticker? Well, it seems no one actually cares about addressing homelessness (we can’t even agree on what causes homelessness) so maybe the solution is to set up a bizarre dystopian colony where all the homeless people from major cities can be sent so they’re out of sight. If people don’t SEE a shirtless dude screaming on the corner, or someone taking a shit on the sidewalk, they can pretend the problem is solved.

Shane Mendez

I want to but where will I find the time!!!

Tim Heidecker

Let me ask you this, considering the situation is actually so very simple, whats the solution?

Zach M

Ok, man. Do you what you want. I'm not getting into an argument on the comment section of Tim's blog post. Have a good one!

Randy Faucheux

So, starting out with the false premise of simplicity is going to lead to people digging into it further and then finding out for themselves that it actually wasnt that simple?? Are there only two choices? You can either listen to a Marxist or an “anti-marxist”? Im not going to be takinf either extreme very seriously.

Zach M

Go see Killers of the Flower Moon this weekend T.

WL

Keep subtracting, you're still way off. Also, as someone who grew up being put through the evangelical ringer I can say that even relatively "moderate" religious beliefs *can* be ... sad, silly, even dangerous, and that's putting it gently. It made growing up an immense struggle, dimwitted my entire family ... and that dimwit family votes. As a survivor of it, that's my take. I understand that one size does not fit all, that there's an immense spectrum, but I also know my experience is quite far from unique.

rainbowdark

Oh, and THE VIEWING BOOTH. One of the best docs I've ever seen on Israel/Palestine, media literacy, and our own ability to objectively interpret the things we see.

MIREST

Hearing that the issue is not as complicated as we've been led to believe may actually lead people to start at the beginning in order to develop a better understanding of it. Hearing that it's incredibly complicated turns a lot of people off from even making the attempt to fully understand it. Of course there's nuance but if you zoom out and look at it objectively, the heart of the issue isn't all that difficult to understand. Also, I don't think calling someone a Marxist discredits their insight the way you think it does. Most of the Marxists I know are highly principled, well-informed people who understand complex issues much better than anyone who claims to be anti-Marxist.

Randy Faucheux

Anyone thats interested in learning about it should start at the beginning, and not with a clipped out soundbite from a self proclaimed marxist.

Zach M

HOMELAND: IRAQ YEAR ZERO is probably one of the best docs ever made. Highly recommend. It's not a direct link to today's issues but it's certainly an indirect one.

MIREST

I think the only part that's uncomplicated from an American standpoint is our role in all of it. I find it very hard to not be enraged by the amount of *our* tax dollars being spent to enable slaughter. Money that we break our backs until we're elderly, and hope we can live long enough to enjoy some of the fruits of our labor. Money that should be healing the sick, feeding the hungry and housing the homeless. Instead, the mass majority of us are one injury or illness away from abject poverty, and as we lay in the hospital, we can watch CNN cheer on the pillage of Gaza by weapons made and paid for by us. The worst part is, we have absolutely no way to stop it. No one in Congress has the guts to call out the billions we've sent to fund wars that have no end in sight. And for what? I am completely disgusted to be an American, but all I can possibly do about it is post online about it. It's hard to not feel hopeless and see the beauty in the world when the future is so bleak. I plan to get outside, grill some brats and listen to some music this weekend. Hope you do too, friends. As always, thank you, Tim.

albrechto

I mean, the bible wasnt doing great things before capitalists decided to use it for their benefit either..

Zach M

Religion as a whole has been responsible for 99% of the worlds conflicts throughout human history. It a net negative on society. It gets used to grt people to do things that they would never do without those unfounded beliefs. It has also stifled creativity and scientific knowledge for 99% of recorded history.

Zach M

99.36

Willie

James beeson

Heres something to consider. Remember when Trump tore up the obama nuclear deal with Iran? Seems to be pretty relevant right now… Trump is also currently saying that if he was president, he would have made Iran sign a nuclear deal on day one… Also dont forget that russia/putin helped get trump elected. Putin is definitely involved in this. His main man Alexsander Dugin seems to think this is the start of something much bigger… Not only is the israel palestine conflict complicated, but there are more layers of complexity around it all with larger worldwide implications.

Zach M

Big Fan btw!

Fanciulla

99% ? ... Seriously?

rainbowdark

probably better worded as sad and stupid when it helps enable violence

skeletonmeat

And I also understand that much of what passes for "religious belief" now, at least in Europe and America, is a disguised form of capitalist or totalitarian cultishness.

Willie

Sorry; I misquoted. That makes sense-- though wouldn't you say that that you can hinge your entire personality into a religion and go in a Ghandian-MLK Jr. direction (religious extremists in the sense of hinging their entire personality) and not necessarily a Hamas or Israeli settler zealot or Westboro Baptist Church direction? I don't think it's inevitable that someone who invests their entire personality in a religion becomes a violent or crazy or even silly fanatic. Anyway I loved the post.

Willie

Willie, keep in mind that the vast majority of those humans did not believe in the gods that modern humanity has chosen to believe in. It is also very important to understand that the vast majority of that vast majority had NO CHOICE but to believe, or at the very least pretend to believe in said gods or risk certain death. It really isnt that complicated either. And to attempt to say that art somehow justifies this is absolutely ridiculous. When artists are forced to produce religious themed art for their livelihood, what exactly do you expect?

Zach M

I agree with that. But I think too many people refuse to try to educate themselves on the situation, and instead just follow the mainstream pro-Israel narrative because they're intimidated by trying to learn about it. And we'll never reach a solution that isn't horrible for everyone involved if Palestinian liberation doesn't get the mass support it needs.

Randy Faucheux

Seems like people have been giving you really good resources on the history of Palestine for you to read & engage with. You have no excuse for not fervently looking into what's going on right now and educating yourself. No more posts condescending religion (makes no sense, culture is a product of religion and you are a part of it whether you think you're better or not). C'mon man, drop the western chauvinism

Fanciulla

Well all that matters in the end is the solution so it’s complicated

Tim Heidecker

Agree. I meant to say hinging your entire personality, which I think refers to religious zealots and extremists - and silly more than stupid but that’s just how I see it.

Tim Heidecker

you might find this book interesting: https://www.versobooks.com/products/2684-the-palestine-laboratory

lorian

Michael Brooks lays it out in very simple terms: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vb86oDsousI

Randy Faucheux

Everything in this post is excellent, except the thing about hinging your personality on religious belief being "sad and silly." Surely if these issues you're talking about are complicated, then religious beliefs (which the vast majority of mankind have subscribed to since the dawn of recorded history and which have inspired 99 % of all enduring art) are at the very least "complicated" as well and not "sad and silly," which seems to be a comment worthy of Bill Maher at his most complacent.

Willie

Another good article explaining why it's not as complicated as western propaganda wants us to think it is (for the record, I completely agree taht the solution is complicated - mostly because we're dealing with the hegemonic western power structure and Palestine is a bit powerless against that, but the situation itself is less complicated than many seem to think it is): https://shado-mag.com/opinion/there-is-nothing-complicated-about-the-situation-in-palestine/

Randy Faucheux

This is a Palestinian explaining how/why it's not complicated, and just a good read: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/opinion/israel-hamas-gaza-ceasefire.html

Randy Faucheux

I had an art studio at 7th and Mission for four years…probably one of the worst pockets you walked by. They tried to gentrify the area, but it turns out you can’t throw tech companies and “luxury” apartments at a neighborhood in order to fix issues that require complete systemic reform. This whole system in the US runs on pain and fear of homelessness. It’s not a bug it’s a feature. Sad stuff.

Zach Searcy

100% behind your position, Tim. I think the actual "dodge" is taking simple, B/W position without considering all consequences of your idealism. What you're talking about is the real work. "Complicated" is how the world works and positive change happens when we put people in charge that understand that.

Boris Seagraves

Egg slut

SpongeBob Marley

thank u Tim! I just started listening to The Dig’s “Palestine Teach-In” episode that came out this week. that pod can get kinda heady for my soft lil brain at times, but it’s usually worth it — & I’m finding this ep particularly accessible & super informative. would recommend! link: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-dig/id1043245989?i=1000632068938

casey

*Mark Porch

Matthew James

Thanks Tim!

Alek