MADNESS
Added 2023-10-14 15:21:21 +0000 UTCI spent the week thinking about what to say about Israel and Gaza. By the time it came to do the show, I had decided that I would not put too much focus on it... I didn't want to put Mike in an uncomfortable place and I really felt like we were better off just adding a little levity to the week for a few hours. None of this was really discussed amongst us, but I think that may explain some of the extra silliness and giggly behavior. It was so nice to just joke around a bit.
I'll be brutally honest with you here. When I first saw the news Saturday morning, on our way to Disneyland, I clocked it as a big story, but just another chapter in the saga of Middle East back-and-forth violence I've been reading about or seeing on the TV since I can remember. I'm 47 years old and some of my first TV memories are of my grandfather watching the evening news and seeing angry men picking up blocks of concrete and rock and throwing them toward riot police - dusty, hollowed-out, cement buildings behind them. But as the news continued to filter in it seemed obvious that what was happening was something different.
The next day, I think my feelings were mixed.... Fear and grief for the scores of people killed, captured, terrorized by the attack... but also a little of "well, what did you expect to happen?" It's a terrible but honest reaction - I'm sorry, but this was GOING to happen someday. Now, in no way do I feel like it deserved to happen or SHOULD happen, just that the conditions created the high probability that it WOULD happen.
The absurd madness of the open-air prison that is the Gaza Strip makes it impossible to think about the Hamas Rampage in a contextless vacuum. What for? Why pretend like Hamas came down from outer space and just started slaughtering people?
I have several friends who seemed to get very angry online when people tried to contextualize the violence and it reminded me of when conservative gun supporters would scold the left for bringing up gun control after a mass shooting. "now is not the time" and the left would say "well, when is the time??"
Listen, i don't think there's a serious voice out there suggesting that the current blockade/occupation of Gaza is tenable. I can look at a map and pretty much deduce that the whole thing is nutso. The more I learn, the less I understand... because when you drill down into the core of this issue, you find we're talking about "HOLY Land..." And it's very hard for me to take any of that talk seriously. Of course, I always try my very best to be empathetic to religious people, but to a point. Like, when your religion starts increasing the probability of my holidays being interrupted by Thermonuclear War.
I love the Jewish people and recognize their special and terribly tragic place in history and do believe that Israel has a right to exist as a State - but if its existence demands the subjugation and imprisonment of the religious Palestinians... well, that's not working for anyone, is it?
I also view Hamas as a sick death cult that stands with many in the region who want to see Israel wiped off the map and It's impossible for me to view their attack or general strategy as any kind of heroic, resistance movement that should be celebrated in the streets.
I'll say this about news coverage - it's a mess. There's a whole lot of misinformation out there, a whole lot of heavy Israeli bias on the major networks - I get it, Israel is basically the 51st State - Their spokespeople speak English, look like us, and have mastered the PR game. But there are helpful voices out there who I think are doing a good job of balancing the hard job of being somewhere in the middle - I really felt like this clip of Emma Vigland on the Majority Report did a fine job of trying to find some amount of honesty in all of this.
And there's lots more good reading you can do... I'm reading this piece that Amy Schumer posted which talks about Hamas' broader strategy - lots of Global chess pieces in play.
Anyway, this has been my Brain Dump of the situation. Please understand my feelings on all of this change day by day. I think anyone acting like you can have a pure and simple black-and-white position on any of this is disingenuous or naive and so comments sections on social media seem to be just about the very worst places on the internet lately. And so while I welcome your feedback, insights, or links to more reading or watching, please keep it respectful and know that I hope we all just want peace and justice for everyone.
PS, saw our Jurist Matt last night, and we laughed about Tar... He was like "It was a little rich, with your Pizza take giving me shit for not liking a movie!" oh how we laughed.
P&L, T
Comments
I appreciate all this, but I was hoping the amy schumer remark was a joke. She has been disgusting on this whole thing, along with...well honestly Sarah. I had to unfollow her.
Matt Mayer
2023-10-21 21:25:59 +0000 UTCI started responding with a few lines & used it as an excuse to generate my own reflections, la Tim. Mostly on the use of violence… 🙏 “John Brown will make the gallows as glorious as the Cross,” in Emerson’s memorable words. But Brown didn’t only kill slaveowners. He murdered entire families in cold blood. I once stopped at the spot along a highway in Kansas where one of the massacres occurred. There is no remaining structure, & no formal marking of the spot. (Found a description of the location in David S. Reynolds’ masterful book on Brown & the spark that lit the Civil War inferno). I’d have to concede that killing slaveowners was a legitimate form of terrorism. It struck fear in the hearts of all others who held human beings in chains. But the children? They were awoken in the middle of the night, only to be shot execution style after hearing an axe cut through their parents’ bodies. At some point, to be sure, colonial violence becomes unbearable. The daily humiliations & subtle forms of violence inflict deep psychological wounds, the possibility of freedom & political rights is so remote as to be unimaginable, the occupier’s stranglehold leaves the occupied fighting to breathe, they see that no one is coming to their rescue, that there is no way out of the wilderness of the present — & all hope is lost.* (see endnote) Outbreaks of violent insurgency, as Tim points out, are easily foreseeable long before oppression reaches such a fever-pitch. John Brown’s murder spree, like Hamas’s, was provoked by the horrors of American slavery. Likewise, Israel bears significant responsibility for having continually chosen expansion over peace & its own security. All of that said, I disagreed when Harvard students said that Israel was “entirely to blame” for the 10/7 attacks. I find it troubling that many people on the right side of this conflict feel the need to bite the bullet & maintain that they approve of the methods used by Hamas on 10/7. Hideous cruelty, children slaughtered, mothers burned alive with their children in their arms. Etc. In my view, no decent human being can watch those videos & think “yes indeed, praise Allah for the success of the Palestinian liberation movement.” When pressed, very few Hamas defenders will answer Yes if asked whether they could snap a child’s neck if it meant advancing a step further towards freedom for their own children. Emerson is my favorite writer & moralist - can’t recommend his essays on YouTube highly enough - but when he praised Brown without denouncing his more savage methods, I think he was allowing himself to dwell exclusively on Brown’s more legitimate targets in the final days leading up to the raid at Harper’s Ferry, VA. Perhaps the ultimate form of imperialism is insisting that colonization not only traumatizes its victims, but that it renders them incapable of showing courage & humanity through even the worst atrocities of their oppressor. They may be dehumanized, but so too may be the Jews who are so astonishingly blind to the suffering of the Palestinians. And what explains that dehumanization? In both cases, its religious zealotry. Jews believe the land was given to them by God, so what’s a little genocide if Arabs are standing in the way? Hamas believes Allah wishes death upon its enemies. The unbelievable cruelty we witnessed in those images from 10/7 were not strictly necessary forms of resistance, the only options available to a desperate people crying out for freedom. They could have shown mercy to children, if nothing else. It was barbarism, & we ought to have the courage to call it that & to refuse this obscene insistence that we respect these despicable religions that have cursed humanity for centuries. Stop the madness cannot stop at religion’s or Hamas’s shores. It must be without qualification if humanity is to achieve more than sporadic outbursts of democracy & peace. * Interestingly, given the present-day context, Jewish philosophers Hannah Arendt & Emmanuel Levinas identity the essence of totalitarianism in the destruction of hope, futurity, & plurality — that is, spaces for thinking in concert with others, exercising political rights, having one’s humanity & individuality recognized. Of course, their reflections were prompted by the horrors of the Holocaust, & their aim was to make us alert to these factors so that we can safeguard our democratic values & turn “Never Again” into a practical reality. Ironically & hypocritically, the supporters of Israel insist on an asterisk, so they insist on hyper-vigilance exclusively with respect to perceived threats to Israel — so much so that resistance to Israel’s war crimes strikes them as a subtle form of antisemitism.
GrantLeeEdwards
2023-10-21 21:14:33 +0000 UTCI started responding with a few lines & used it as an excuse to generate my own reflections, a la Tim. I’ll post this as a stand-alone comment, but fyi in case interested. Thx. 🙏 “John Brown will make the gallows as glorious as the Cross,” in Emerson’s memorable words. But Brown didn’t only kill slaveowners. He murdered entire families in cold blood. I once stopped at the spot along a highway in Kansas where one of the massacres occurred. At some point, to be sure, colonial violence becomes unbearable. The daily humiliations & subtle forms of violence inflict deep psychological wounds, the possibility of freedom & political rights is so remote as to be unimaginable, the occupier’s stranglehold leaves the occupied fighting to breathe, they see that no one is coming to their rescue, that there is no way out of the wilderness of the present — & all hope is lost.* (see endnote) Outbreaks of violent insurgency, as Tim points out, are easily foreseeable long before oppression reaches such a fever-pitch. John Brown’s murder spree, like Hamas’s, was provoked by the horrors of American slavery. Likewise, Israel bears significant responsibility for having continually chosen expansion over peace & its own security. All of that said, I disagreed when Harvard students said that Israel was “entirely to blame” for the 10/7 attacks. I find it troubling that many people on the right side of this conflict feel the need to bite the bullet & maintain that they approve of the methods used by Hamas on 10/7. Hideous cruelty, children slaughtered, mothers burned alive with their children in their arms. Etc. In my view, no decent human being can watch those videos & think “yes indeed, praise Allah for the success of the Palestinian liberation movement.” When pressed, very few Hamas defenders will answer Yes if asked whether they could snap a child’s neck if it meant advancing a step further towards freedom for their own children. Emerson is my favorite writer & moralist - can’t recommend his essays on YouTube highly enough - but I think he was allowing himself to dwell on Brown’s more legitimate targets in the final days leading up to the raid at Harper’s Ferry, VA. * Interestingly, given the present-day context, Jewish philosophers Hannah Arendt & Emmanuel Levinas identity the essence of totalitarianism in the destruction of hope, futurity, & plurality — that is, spaces for thinking in concert with others, exercising political rights, having one’s humanity & individuality recognized. Of course, their reflections were prompted by the horrors of the Holocaust, & their aim was to make us alert to these factors so that we can safeguard our democratic values & turn “Never Again” into a practical reality. Ironically & hypocritically, the supporters of Israel insist on an asterisk, so they insist on hyper-vigilance exclusively with respect to perceived threats to Israel — so much so that resistance to Israel’s war crimes strikes them as a subtle form of antisemitism.
GrantLeeEdwards
2023-10-21 20:38:56 +0000 UTCIf you talk about it on the show I hope you have Abby Martin back on. She has been to Gaza, and has been covering it extensively. I recommend her documentary Gaza Fights for Freedom; it gives context for the brutal siege and shows how Israel lethally retaliates even when it's peaceful protests. It's free on YouTube rn: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HnZSaKYmP2s
Amine
2023-10-19 00:16:11 +0000 UTCAgreed, Tim. Also want to say that the level of bloodthirst in some of these comments creeps me out, to put it mildly
Aidan Morrison
2023-10-18 05:42:29 +0000 UTCThanks T. Peace and love!
Jack
2023-10-18 01:04:39 +0000 UTCLove Norm
Tommy nono
2023-10-18 00:00:32 +0000 UTCReally enjoyed this, thanks for posting!
Alexander Connolly
2023-10-17 20:37:56 +0000 UTCThanks Tim. It's becoming so clear that an occupying force is about to commit genocide and we'll all just watch it happen. Not because we wanted any of this, but because we can't stop any of it. Larger entities have decided for us. Hating what's happening, loving the wonderful Trinity and the empathy you emanate even when you're goofin.
will
2023-10-17 06:32:20 +0000 UTCNorman Finkelstein spanking little Dershy the baby in 2003: https://youtu.be/GzqTWpPI5Qw?si=jEU1x5FWynFBCKrp Finkelstein in 2018: https://youtu.be/mZGPZRkqJzY?si=qxpwsmkSDHJPMZZR Finkelstein on the crisis today: https://www.youtube.com/live/m36CUGA1Ucw?si=26asYol2sqyWgO9m
abol
2023-10-17 02:54:06 +0000 UTCThank you Tim
D Powers
2023-10-17 00:39:25 +0000 UTCIt’s good! He knows what’s up. But he’s also speaking to/for an audience that represents America I think it’s in a church. But he can get to them that’s his trick.
Alex Hannah
2023-10-16 23:06:44 +0000 UTCUnfortunately for the poor Palestinians, the recent disgusting attacks by Hamas will be used as an excuse for ignoring all of the Palestinian peoples' legitimate grievances. I am Irish and the same was done by the British media any time the IRA did something grisly. And if it goes anything like it did in Ireland, this whole military effort to "destroy" Hamas is pointless because it cannot be achieved by force. The more they punish the Palestinian people, the easier they make it for Hamas to recruit young men with no good options in life, who can now rightly claim to be fighting to protect their community.
David Armstrong
2023-10-16 12:53:51 +0000 UTCOne of the most obvious propaganda statements you hear repeated and unchecked is that hamas is worse than isis. Everyone remembers isis, but without historical and political context hamas has been elevated to the new king bogeyman! The mainstream media has sidelined their journalistic ethics for these opening days of this predictable war. Take a break from the cheerleading and watch Democracy Now for a few days. https://www.democracynow.org/
Calvin
2023-10-16 12:23:29 +0000 UTCEveryone widely understands that the US supported the Taliban during the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and that didn't turn out great for us. What some very vocal Zionists don't seem to understand is that Israel helped create Hamas in the 90s. They did this to divide Palestine and undercut the PLO at negotiations on the world stage. Israel has continuously chose violence. As an American it's easy for me to recognize how dogshit our foreign policy is. I can't comprehend the most vocal Israel defenders who can't process that having the same leader on and off since 1996 pursuing the same militaristic strategies has not been working out.
Nick B
2023-10-16 12:20:54 +0000 UTCThey really should just write to their representatives. I agree, EKB.
Count Crackula
2023-10-16 05:30:12 +0000 UTCAlso: https://www.salon.com/2021/07/18/trumps-big-lie-gets-an-intellectual-defense-at-last--as-a-twitter-thread-of-course/
William Riley
2023-10-16 01:09:40 +0000 UTCWell shit. So maybe I spoke too soon, and this guy is problematic? Sorry, should’ve vetted a little better before recommending. On the surface this series seems fine, but it seems more recently he’s gotten cozy with MAGA, or at the very least didn’t shun some of their embrace? https://reddit.com/r/martyrmade/s/HuNUsrQh0S
William Riley
2023-10-16 00:59:51 +0000 UTChttps://reddit.com/r/OnCinemaAtTheCinema/s/wHvzFRkIZL
Optimisto
2023-10-15 23:58:02 +0000 UTChttps://reddit.com/r/OnCinemaAtTheCinema/s/qY36Flaqz2
Optimisto
2023-10-15 23:57:49 +0000 UTCwhat violence and how much do you find acceptable from a colonized people, then? strikes against their oppressor after 75 years of genocide are not righteous enough to meet your standard of approval?
Madi
2023-10-15 18:47:21 +0000 UTCDenouncing or even just questioning a specific act of violence doesn't necessarily mean a person is against any and all forms of violence. I know it's a common hack argument that "violence is never the answer" but I don't think anyone in this thread, or in Tim's OP made that argument.
EKB
2023-10-15 18:13:46 +0000 UTCthe raid on Harper's Ferry was also referred to as terrorism at the time. "The Europeans took America through violence and through violence they established the most powerful country in the world. Through violence they maintain the most powerful country in the world. It is absolutely absurd for one to say that violence never accomplishes anything." -Kwame Ture
Madi
2023-10-15 17:56:17 +0000 UTCI think what John means to say is fuck the Israeli government. I've friends living and working in Israel and I can tell you the majority do not support what is happening, to condemn all of Israel is just as stupid as condemning all of Palestine for the attacks from Hamas. Are we back to thinking everyone in Germany during ww2 was a blood hungry nazi? Or were they just normal people living under a terrifying regime they voted in through fear tactics and sanctions? (and even then I'm simplifying it for levity sake)
ToddUmptious
2023-10-15 16:09:56 +0000 UTCAre you privy to the classified meetings? If not, you quite frankly dont have a clue. This is an incredibly complicated situation. On one hand you cant allow Hamas/Iran/Putin to do what they did. You also cant sit back and allow Israel to retaliate in a way that will kill innocent Palestinians and soark off ww3.
Zach M
2023-10-15 15:57:52 +0000 UTCI love Rick Steve’s I hope this talk won’t tarnish my love for him…no time to watch this today but will get to it
Ornico (katie)
2023-10-15 15:43:39 +0000 UTCHere’s my favorite YouTube lawyer breaking down the colonialism of it all: https://youtu.be/DOrX6kjjgOg?si=sovEdnjAs-94AV9i
Ornico (katie)
2023-10-15 15:40:37 +0000 UTCI welled up reading this too. This post from T is like a weighted blanket - heavy but deeply comforting.
KL
2023-10-15 14:55:40 +0000 UTCAlso want to add Biden came here, to say how he loves his Irish roots and will never forget what we were put through, and America stands to never let something like that happen again yadda yadda yadda. Can you let him know he's not welcome back? We have a special island for hypocrites, it's just a little east of us, but not the northern part, or the western part, we love our Scottish/Welsh cousins
ToddUmptious
2023-10-15 10:10:45 +0000 UTCHey Tim, subbed from Ireland just to read this. You've been a comedic hero of mine since I was 16. I'm 36 and currently on an oxygen mask from a collapsed lung, seeing the western world's response had me chain smoking something fierce and here I am. I knew you'd have a clear head on all of this, and I find myself welling up just to know that on eof my heroes, is on the right side of history (for context my earliest comedic hero was Graham Linehan... And yeeeah don't follow yr heroes on twitter I guess.) I like having fun. I like to laugh. I like to see people who can stand up for horrendous calls for genocide.
ToddUmptious
2023-10-15 10:06:33 +0000 UTCAbby Martin (Empire files) is covering the atrocities with grim detail(who’s amazing content I discovered via OHL). I’m not sure if it’s been mentioned in the comments TL:DR.
bookish_threat
2023-10-15 09:19:56 +0000 UTChow about just say fuck Netanyahu, what does the existence of isreal have anything to do with it? how much land would isreal have to give back to palestine before you are happy? to say all of it is unrealistic.
Alex Hannah
2023-10-15 04:20:03 +0000 UTCstarted listening and it's very good so far!
Tim Heidecker
2023-10-15 02:51:42 +0000 UTCThank you Tim. Unfortunately the Biden administration is doing nothing to stop what could become a genocide (perhaps already is). Thank you for speaking out; we need those like you who “have a platform,” as they say, to speak out and demand the US call for an immediate cease fire. For those who are inclined, here are a couple of ways to advocate. It feels like a drop in the bucket, but it’s something: https://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/take-action/
Adam Rothstein
2023-10-15 02:26:24 +0000 UTChttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JAQJ16W6wg
Alex Hannah
2023-10-15 02:13:10 +0000 UTCthat is just an patently awful - and its not a barren desert hell scape there either - its not the middle of the sahara also just because the holocaust happened doesnt mean every other form of mass slaughter can be ignored. thats not the only parallel here - its more like the SA apartheid that is occurring but with added missile strikes on civilians - israel are telling the gazans to move to the southern area but then also blowing up the civilian convoys trying to do just what they ask. This is just horrific and doesnt need to only matter against the history of what happened to jewish people in ww2. All these events are awful and the overall inhumanity and atrocity is all bad unequivocally. It is frightening to hear the kinds of things you are writing - it just feeds into the overall inhumanity and suffering
Mitchell Nolte
2023-10-15 01:12:35 +0000 UTCconvince yourself of this. im finding that everyone who thinks this attack is justified seems to say this exact thing. even though its not true. i follow npr bbc and al jazeera and they were all pretty even handed UNTIL last saturday. so consider the actions of hamas as destroying the ability to have a conversation, not isreal. they had protests about netanwahoo's policies out in the open and on western channels.
Alex Hannah
2023-10-15 01:05:34 +0000 UTCWell i am referring to more of what is seen on tv in the us and australia where i am
Mitchell Nolte
2023-10-15 01:03:05 +0000 UTCThe Balfour Declaration. That alone could be the only indictment needed. Tim, with peace and love peace and love, maybe get a bit more educated about Hamas starting with the history.
KD
2023-10-15 00:51:09 +0000 UTChow about wait, because palestinian sympathy was growing in the democratic party and now it is gone.
Alex Hannah
2023-10-15 00:45:12 +0000 UTCwhat would you have them do?
Journe
2023-10-14 23:47:49 +0000 UTCand they're turning up in droves... another commenter stated that westerners treating the concept of decolonization with "nuance" was counterproductive to the cause of Palestinian liberation, implicitly framing the Hamas attacks as a revolutionary act consistent with a project of decolonization. Other than possibly satisfying a surface-level sense of vengeance, how are raids by Hamas (a group tacitly accepted by Netanyahu and other dictators in the region) productive for the cause of Palestinian liberation?
EKB
2023-10-14 23:32:25 +0000 UTCAs someone of Muslim Middle Eastern parentage, I will say unreservedly that any Westerner who espouses a positive view of Hamas is the very definition of a useful idiot
Bramley Apple
2023-10-14 23:25:34 +0000 UTCwell written Madi!
Journe
2023-10-14 23:13:08 +0000 UTCAnd then Muslim populations responded by ethnically cleansing Jews from their countries, which is why Israel's population now is at least 50 percent descended from Jews who were from the Middle East or North Africa. It's a thoroughly complex and ugly history that will never be resolved by either people like Hamas or people like Netanyahu.
Bramley Apple
2023-10-14 23:12:52 +0000 UTCJew here. I hate and vehemently reject Netanyahu, the Israeli right-wing, the settler movement, the occupation/blockade, and the Apartheid-like conditions. However, I strongly push back on the idea that I do not have the right to criticize the means by which Palestinians attempt to decolonize. In particular, I reject terrorism. Terrorism might be always wrong... but it is definitely wrong unless the ends justify the means AND the ends could not be achieved by any other means AND the means actually bring about the ends. Some here might sincerely believe that bringing about the end of the state of Israel justifies the murder of over a thousand innocents. I vehemently disagree with that notion, but so be it. But the killings were so overtly barbaric (killing babies and the elderly, raping women, 260 deaths at a music festival (13x the electric sun, forgive me for the morbid humor in the midst of this...), so lacking strategic foresight, so guaranteed to elicit a massive military response that is destined to kill thousands of Palestinians, that we are not just allowed to criticize Hamas, we are obligated to. They embody incompetent and evil leadership and OBVIOUSLY do not care about the lives of their own people (their top brass do not even live in Palestine). The slaughter does not and will not achieve the political goal it intended, if it intended any. In that way, they are fundamentally different from the Israeli government, which, whatever else one can say about it, does care about its own citizens, more or less. I have other thoughts, but this opinion by art historian Simon Schama expresses my feelings better than I can (gift article). https://on.ft.com/45yjKzF
Strerve McAlvoy
2023-10-14 22:58:42 +0000 UTCIt was nice to take a break from the madness and laugh along with you guys.
Sarah McBreairty
2023-10-14 22:30:01 +0000 UTCI remember that.
Journe
2023-10-14 22:23:21 +0000 UTCDidn't Captain Carlin literally say Fuck Israel on an episode once?
Graham
2023-10-14 22:16:44 +0000 UTCwhat we see is that israel is run by that extreme right wing faction now who want a complete liquidation of the palestinians who are locked in place by them - hamas of course is likewise an extremist group who want the destruction of israel - its impossible in this situation that peace can happen and civilians are being massacred who are caught in between - largely though the palestinians are and have been suffering the death and abuse while being trapped for close to 20 years while israel also steadly keeps squeezing them into smaller spaces such that the palestinians do not even have somewhere to bury their dead anymore. Netanyahu even supported hamas being elected back in the 2000s as he knew then that a group like hamas running gaza would help delegitimize forming any kind of two state solution (not that that is the only option) and give Israel the perfect cover for continuing to drop bombs and missiles on palestinians - the israeli governments public opinion now is that all palestinians are terrorists Just this past week over 500 children have been killed in gaza by israeli attacks, and from aid groups reporting from there, children living in gaza predominantly are growing up with depression, suicidal ideation and visible PTSD - this the scale of the trauma being inflicted on children who live under constant threat of death and also who witness their own friends and familiy members being killed is something the mainstream media really pays no attention to.
Mitchell Nolte
2023-10-14 21:43:47 +0000 UTCEven The New Yorker had an article this AM on how a majority of Israelis blame Bibi, so I don't really agree.
CB
2023-10-14 21:04:36 +0000 UTCIt’s not so much that they’re being outright dishonest as they’re not telling the whole story, which at best makes it look like both sides are equal and at worst makes it look like it’s all Palestine’s fault.
Randy Faucheux
2023-10-14 20:58:47 +0000 UTCScary how mainstream media has given unequivocal support to every bit of information coming out of Israel. I even heard one of the morning Joe sidekicks say that any position other than complete agreement with Israel was shameful “whataboutism”. Palestinian babies crushed by cinderblocks are just as horrifying as Israeli babies riddled with bullets. They should be viewed as examples of failed leadership and policy and not blank checks for more violence.
Calvin
2023-10-14 20:20:20 +0000 UTCyour responses suggest you think John is being disingenuous and reactionary, but there are a few reasons why a "nuanced" western perspective on the struggle of a colonized people using the tools they have available is counterproductive to Palestinian liberation. if you want to understand the theory that violence is absolutely necessary for the project of decolonization I would suggest Frantz Fanon's The Wretched of the Earth, free pdf here https://monoskop.org/images/6/6b/Fanon_Frantz_The_Wretched_of_the_Earth_1963.pdf for historical context specific to Palestine I recommend Edward Said's The Question of Palestine https://refugeeacademy.org/upload/library/The_Question_of_Palestine.pdf though it is quite clear and uncomplicated that israel is an apartheid state committing genocide (as you mentioned, Tim, it is clear simply looking at the map of the region from 1947 to now) there is plenty of nuanced thought and theory that leads many of us to the conclusion of yes, actually, fuck israel. fuck israel using the global history of Jewish oppression and the diaspora as a shield for war crimes, weaponizing Jewish history and islamophobia to wage a political war. a war that especially Orthodox Jews do not consider holy, and indeed find antithetical to Jewish religious text. fuck israel for insisting that the global Jewish identity is a zionist one. fuck israel for their propaganda that ethnic cleansing is a religious Jewish right rather than a political Zionist project
Madi
2023-10-14 19:44:30 +0000 UTCRead about the 1948 Nakba and I think your views on Israel having a right to exist may change. The UN dropped a bunch of Europeans into an area already inhabited, murdered people who had already been there for centuries, destroyed their villages, then said “80% of this land is Israel now”.
Brandon Jeffries
2023-10-14 19:03:46 +0000 UTCI'll never be invited to Sarah Silvermans rooftop parties. What do I have to lose?
Journe
2023-10-14 18:55:33 +0000 UTCEugene Puryear is an outstanding journalist, and this video contextualizes the history of the situation in a consise, articulate, and brilliantly eloquent manner. I also found it to be thoroughly moving and potent. https://youtu.be/AFjyKDUSMDo?si=5oJmy70q2b8GEoNC
abol
2023-10-14 18:47:29 +0000 UTCHeartfelt and eloquently put. 💚
Dana
2023-10-14 18:43:09 +0000 UTCi got dumped on my birthday last week so my personal life has been topsy-turvy. To watch the world fall apart and being unable to engage thoughtfully legit only leads me to one mode: love.
Brian Rooney
2023-10-14 18:38:09 +0000 UTCI read in last 2 days articles articles in cnn, usa today and neesweek saying that Israel was potentially committing war crimes, so I dont know if I agree with the idea that western media isnt reporting honestly. Not saying you Tim, just what other people are telling me.
CB
2023-10-14 18:26:07 +0000 UTCThank you for the levity this week T, this has all been so depressing and I was crying from laughing seeing what Vic did to the freedom video; amazing stuff. To have this news completely taken out of my mind for two hours was a gift I truly needed this week. Peace and love.
Lastchants
2023-10-14 18:25:21 +0000 UTCcertainly agree with this. The Haaretz editorial says as much.
Tim Heidecker
2023-10-14 17:57:33 +0000 UTCoh ok. Fuck Israel. Smart, nuanced, helpful. really value that perspective.
Tim Heidecker
2023-10-14 17:53:16 +0000 UTCBrave stuff John.
Tim Heidecker
2023-10-14 17:21:57 +0000 UTCthanks! i'll seek it out!
Tim Heidecker
2023-10-14 17:21:35 +0000 UTCWell said
Samantha M
2023-10-14 17:21:24 +0000 UTCstick to the topic. I've had the very best and the very worst pizza in the world and I stand firmly by my take (albeit it was AMPED up for comic effect)
Tim Heidecker
2023-10-14 17:21:10 +0000 UTCI don’t have a take on all this, but I’ve started and recommend a 6-part series from the Martyrmade Podcast called “Fear and Loathing in the New Jerusalem.” Its a history of the conflict done in sort of the style of Dan Carlin’s Hardcore History. It’s semi-dense with info, so requires active listening but still conversational so I find it readily absorbable. As much as I can tell, it’s relatively balanced in terms of just laying out the history and doesn’t try to take a side. I’m finding it useful in just trying to wrap my brain around it all.
William Riley
2023-10-14 17:07:20 +0000 UTCTim, I don’t mean to be rude….and I love what you bring to the community in terms of laughs and goofs. But I gotta say….your pizza take is truly insane. Have you hit your head? Chuckle Cheese? Why not just stick to comedy, and keep the pizza talk to a minimum please? Educate yourself…on different types of pizza. It’s embarrassing.
Wayne Walker
2023-10-14 17:04:45 +0000 UTCWell said Tim!!!
James beeson
2023-10-14 16:43:51 +0000 UTCThere's also the fact that intel from Egypt suggest Netanyahu had warning about the attack before it happened, and given that he's openly admitted to contributing to Hamas' existence for strategic purposes. So whatever evil Hamas might carry, the blame still points right back in Israel's direction.
Randy Faucheux
2023-10-14 16:26:35 +0000 UTCYeah, I guess I just live in a bubble in which all of my Jewish friends are well-informed, anti-Zionist, and very sympathetic to the Palestinians facing similar atrocities that their ancestors faced last century. But I'm fully aware of how strong the propaganda is. It runs deep.
Randy Faucheux
2023-10-14 16:22:15 +0000 UTCGlad you're speaking up on this with an eye on the apartheid regime imposed on Palestinians. There are far too few voices like this and far too many who are jumping to support slaughtering Palestinian children and civilians. The Kavernacle on YouTube has been making good videos about Israel's brutal occupation of Palestine, and now the total war they're waging: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0oolqyG2hk
Angelo Mike
2023-10-14 16:18:10 +0000 UTCThank you for not talking about it on the show. Praying for peace but humans have a very long way to go
Anima
2023-10-14 16:14:54 +0000 UTCThanks! Good take.
Rok Pregelj
2023-10-14 16:05:33 +0000 UTCYeah I try to be sympathetic and understanding to Jewish people through this because I understand it’s painful for them, but I just don’t understand how anyone can be aware of what’s happening in Gaza and continue to be unwaveringly pro-Zionist without at least a little criticism of the Israeli government and their actions.
Randy Faucheux
2023-10-14 16:02:43 +0000 UTCI have sympathy for your sick death cult. It's revolution. It's not pretty. They have zero options. Fuck Amy Schumer. Fuck Isreal.
Journe
2023-10-14 16:01:20 +0000 UTCI wouldn’t have been one of the fans demanding you to say anything…but I appreciate that you did and in a nuanced way. We all do need to stay aware yet also continue existing…the humor helps, thanks.
lilula9
2023-10-14 16:00:13 +0000 UTCSave Palestine. ✌️&❤️
albrechto
2023-10-14 15:53:56 +0000 UTCHamas has officially thanked Putin for his support. This isnt just a continuation of the palestine vs israel ongoing conflict.
Zach M
2023-10-14 15:52:25 +0000 UTCThe only celebrity I've seen so far publicly expressing support for Palestine has been our boy John Early. Love that guy.
Randy Faucheux
2023-10-14 15:50:06 +0000 UTCI follow Brett Gelman on Instagram, and he's just been popping off with super pro-Zionist posts completely unsympathetic to Palestine whatsoever. Then just about every other celebrity I follow is very "well, both sides" about it. So nice to see you take a much more sympathetic approach that isn't completely distorted by mainstream Western media. What an awful situation though. Truly awful.
Randy Faucheux
2023-10-14 15:47:08 +0000 UTCWell said, Tim. Thanks for articulating what many of us are thinking.
bobbylikesthis
2023-10-14 15:44:29 +0000 UTCI have hardly seen anyone in entertainment not absolutely braindead by all the overtly pro-Israel propaganda, thank you so much Tim this is amazingly well put
Henry Michael
2023-10-14 15:41:44 +0000 UTCYou know you are doing a mitzvah by keeping it light. There are so many other outlets for war talk. It's crazy complicated. If anyone wants a really good boots on the ground account to follow motaz_azaiza on instagram (stories) he is a Palestinian dude. He's right in the middle of everything.
Sherri Locker
2023-10-14 15:41:43 +0000 UTClove you tim
Jonny Rhein
2023-10-14 15:34:08 +0000 UTCWhen America takes a hard line for Israel in this situation, our tax dollars for what seems likely to be a genocide, I for one feel like I'm also living in an open air prison. Nicer prison, but with no power to call out the absurdity, our voices mean relatively nothing as things get increasingly worse. The entirety of the situation is disgusting.
Casey S
2023-10-14 15:33:59 +0000 UTCTim never disappoints. He has a good heart and his politics reflect that.
Sam Kimelman
2023-10-14 15:33:13 +0000 UTCNice take.
Nick G
2023-10-14 15:32:06 +0000 UTCWell said, T. OHL showed me Adam Curtis and Hypernormalisation, Can't get you out of my head, etc and I think especially Hypernormalisation provides a lot of context on what decades long destabilization looks like. Complex problems have complex answers and the detangling of all the threads that got us here is almost impossible to do. Peace and love peace and love.
JAYDIOHEAD
2023-10-14 15:31:54 +0000 UTCI wish there were a way to take away their "holy land" toys, like a parent smashing the xbox after too much bickering. I understand that there is plenty of history there, but it is (obviously) not worth the abject atrocities involved in protecting it.
Buz Lee
2023-10-14 15:31:09 +0000 UTCThank you, Tim
Zachary Verhoff
2023-10-14 15:30:52 +0000 UTCI really appreciated the levity of the show, personally. Some good belly laughs were needed. Anyways this blog is spot on. Peace and love, everyone.
PatC
2023-10-14 15:30:28 +0000 UTCI think a great voice on this matter is Norman Finkelstein. I highly recommend checking out his interviews with the True Anon podcast. https://www.patreon.com/posts/46466625?utm_campaign=postshare_fan Thanks for fighting the good fight Tim!
Amber💖
2023-10-14 15:30:13 +0000 UTCThanks Tim for continuing to be a logical mind in a continuously illogical world.
Lou
2023-10-14 15:29:51 +0000 UTCWould recommend this podcast episode of Conflicted. It’s such a deep dive with many overlooked points made, imho, and genuinely tries to be objective and balanced https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/conflicted/id1443491069?i=1000630962479
Jules Poulain
2023-10-14 15:29:22 +0000 UTCExcellent post. I appreciate your thoughtfulness. This whole thing is very complicated. Russia has been purchasing arms from Iran for the terrible war against Ukraine. Russian money is involved here. I think this hamas vs israel stuff is being used as a way to draw the west into a larger conflict.. plus, there are crazies on both sides that want to fulfill biblical “prophecy”. This just in: Hamas has officially thanked Putin for his support.
Zach M
2023-10-14 15:28:48 +0000 UTCI feel the same way Tim.... This piece was good https://jewishcurrents.org/we-cannot-cross-until-we-carry-each-other
David Tenenbaum
2023-10-14 15:28:46 +0000 UTCI hope Gelmam will still come to lunch
Brandon Fasse
2023-10-14 15:26:05 +0000 UTC
