Tangent: Barbie

ending this tangent like that and cutting to the nuke always gets me lmao

firelizard

Thanks for this interesting and highly illuminating comment from which I've learnt a few things I wasn't all too aware of. I'm not affected myself but would like to read more often from aromantic and/or asexual people. We don't know whether Natalie has seen this comment, but at least one person has and appreciated it. :)

DaniloDaSelva

"Your pink crop top won't mean shit on an ashen planet" is one of those, like, genuinely super badass yet utterly insufferable things to say that super far-left people always post. Sounds like one of those things I would angrily text to my parents when I'm having a normal one at 1:00 am when I'm sublimating some other stuff into a general anger at the world. It's technically correct and honestly goes super hard, yet it's packed with such melodrama. I dunno how to explain it but I recognize it, quite clearly. Also, I do kind of wish that you wouldn't use the word "asexuality" as shorthand for chastity/sex negativity and "aromantic" for stories that seem oddly empty of romance, because, as someone who is both aromantic and asexual, as in someone who genuinely doesn't experience sexual or romantic attraction, it hurts a bit hearing the words for my identity used to describe these states of uneasy denial. I don't really give a shit about Disney movies or Barbie (just watching this vid cause I love your insights), but there are people like me in the world for whom life without romantic or sexual desire is our reality, and I wish you were more understanding of that. We almost never get seen or respected in culture. To be honest I kind of felt that way about a some of your Twilight video too, I rewatch it all the time but always skip the early part about that supposedly universal desire and yearning because, to be honest, it is tiring hearing about this magical incredible yet also horrible and devastating and all-consuming experience that is so fundamental to humanity and yet so utterly unlike anything I have ever felt towards another human being. I'm not saying you shouldn't talk about that stuff- it's your channel, and you should talk about your experiences! I just wish that you would make more room for acknowledging that some of us don't experience that stuff and maybe try to understand how we feel more.

Asocksual

So behind the times, but I literally just watched Barbie. I wanted to add on to your comments about romance and sex that I actually found their absence really jarring because there is ALSO a strong emphasis on reproduction. That scene in the white voide where Barbie learns what being human will be like is literally just a montage of babies and children. We know she's become human because she acquires sex organs; while "I'm here to see my gynaecologist" is a great closing line, the message it conveys gets kind of weird when you consider it in context with everything else. I assume it's not intentional, but when you combine asexuality and aromanticim with a heavy focus on producing and rearing children (and that weird line you pointed out about the role of mothers), it kind of suggests that a) the most important thing for a woman to do, perhaps even the thing that makes her a woman, is to reproduce (absoLUTEly not) but b) she's not supposed to enjoy it? Or perhaps that sex is purely for reproduction? Which is a weird thing for a feminist movie to suggest (unless it really was supposed to be separatist). Thanks for the video!

n

Hello i am not sure what the proper channels are to do this but i would like to proffer for consideration tangent topic "discourse"

D. Muthulingam

I guess my impression of the no-romance aspect was simply that it wasn't a part of the story. There didn't seem to be any sort of underlying message that it *shouldn't* be a part of the story, or that romance *mustn't* come into play where feminism prevails. The simple omission did feel refreshing to me. One thing came to mind as you expressed not seeing the Ken dilemma as necessarily reflective of Men's dilemma, that of being subsumed into Woman's identity and not knowing himself outside of her. I agree with you that in many ways it's kind of the opposite of how a lot of men feel, being kind of closed to the influence of women and avoiding their shadows like the plague. However, I will say that in kind of stereotypical, heterosexual, long-term relationships and marriages at least, there's a couple grains of truth to this idea that men don't exist outside of their relationship to their partner/spouse. Men very often stop developing and maintaining friendships outside the relationship or only do so very minimally or in a surface way. Women tend to facilitate social life for both of them entirely. She also tends to facilitate domestic life entirely. The man doesn't know where anything is in the house, what's on his calendar, what time it is, or what's for dinner. He doesn't have to know, she knows. Of course, this is actually itself a form of dominance and incredibly oppressive to women, but viewed in another sense, who is the man and what is his life without his wife at that point? Statistically, men fare FAR worse after divorce and long-term breakups than women. They live in smaller apartments, with less money, fewer friends, worse physical health, and more numerous and intense mental health problems. Divorced women, meanwhile, are happier than married women, married men, and the least happy group, divorced men. It seems to me that women, in many ways and with today's financial and professional choices and resources available to them, don't seem to need men very much, while men seem to need women intensely because they still lack the emotional and social choices and resources that women have. And, they didn't point to any of this in the movie, either, which perhaps was a bit of a missed opportunity but maybe not. Just a thought.

TheLovingAvoidant

I LOVE the no Romance thing. I do find it refreshing, in like a petty way, sure, but still, refreshing. I also think that the final line indicates that Barbie could have romance/sexual attraction as a #RealGirl. It just doesn’t happen with Ken and it doesn’t happen in the movie. Also, the very brief snippets of Gloria’s husband are so loving and attractive? He’s Hot Pixar Dad coded. A cute loving husband. Well meaning himbo/sitcom dad? I like that Gloria has already had her romance, she got her guy, it’s in the bag, maybe in the way many of the women watching this movie have long-term partners? So the movie doesn’t have to focus on that. Idk. I really like it, and I don’t know how you would add romance into the movie in a way that would improve it.

Lisa M

A number of people have pointed out the feminism in America’s speech is kind of old hat, but I think that’s the point, in a way. The reason so many women cried at this speech isn’t because they were hearing this information for the first time, but because they were remembering when they first realized this information and how much it hurt to find out that they were not all going to be doctors or veterinarians and theoretically a woman could become president, but no one ever has and, even if one did, why would it be you? Even the wearing pretty clothes and heels and having a boyfriend was so fraught with all those other things that no one would ever want. And then you’ve got a later transition into being a true adult, where you let the lie of the Barbie idealized existence continue to your child because crushing their dreams that young is needlessly cruel.

Honoria Valemon

I think it makes sense that weird Barbie is outcasted. This causes her to know they're in a kind of "matrix". She's basically Morpheus.

Dear Natalie, On the segment on Ken, you quote "I just don't know who I am without you [Barbie]", and it makes me think of your video essay "Men" where a strong take-home message is that the abolishment of the traditional gender roles leave men without a purpose, not being required to be breadwinners in a family anymore. To me, there is quite the similarity in these two situations - just thought that was interesting!

The whole story of Ken is that not even when he builds the patriarchal paradise, he's still not happy. Because patriarchy doesn't treat most men as rounded individuals with a complex inner life, but as cogs in a machine. Ken doesn't have a personality, he has things. You can see that with all the alpha male crowd. They are their things and live to resent women, just like Ken in their dream patriarchy.

Ale Kenward

I think it's interesting that you saw weird Barbie's marginalization as being shown by the movie as good. Personally, I saw it as being a way of showing how Barbie world was not entirely perfect and that there were some problems to work out (i.e. the idea of misandry not being a suitable alternative to misogyny), but that is also just my take on it and honestly I might be completely wrong.

The "feminist utopia" isn't a representation of an actual male struggle, but it is a representation of how men see their struggle through patriarchal lens. It's the same world view as Manosphere. Greta Gerwig is ambitiously trying to tie their feminist messages to the "inner manosphere" in those of us that are yet to 100% their therapy. (Author's note: there is no such thing as "100%-ing" the therapy.) It worked for me quite well. But it's a compelling take as well that it's actually trying to imagine "what could have been before the patriarchy", like trying to make it more approachable by creating a sequence of events that caused it, as opposed to a real-world situation, where patriarchy was first, and the discussing the "origins" can only be theoretical.

I have no idea if this is what Greta intended, but I think Ken's storyline in the movie does actually reflect the "crisis in masculinity" that has been going on since before we were all born. Masculinity is constructed around the domination of women. Ken's right...without Barbie, he really is nothing, as patriarchy conceives men. It's a little murky in the film because of the three different societies we are presented with, but men in patriarchy do indeed rely on women for their identity.

loved the video!

Audrey Bond

Genuinely absolutely nothing mid about this vid

Sam Moore

To quote a friend, "I might not have liked everything about Barbie, but I also acknowledge that it was never supposed to be For Me. It's for the young women and girls in the audience who might only now be realising these things about themselves and about world" and - I would argue - maybe even for older women in the much the same way. It might inspire some kind of feminist awakening in women who never had a chance to identify that silent feminine frustration within themselves until it was so blatantly articulated by America Ferrera's speech. I think they're the kind of people I hope this film reaches more than anyone else.

Until those lesbian separatists found out there was an other group of women calling themselves lesbians who were actually fucking each other. omfg ded

Errrika

Thanks for the great video! I really enjoyed your commentary and thoughts. I haven't seen the whole movie yet, but I plan to. I've only seen some scenes from the movie online. You made really good points about how older Barbie dolls taught harmful and inaccurate opinions about eating and weight (like the Barbie that came with a scale and the book that says Don't Eat). I think Ken just learns that he needs to be less emotionally dependent on Barbie - and you're right, women are seen as not existing without a man in the real world, whereas men are unlikely to be seen as unimportant without a woman's approval.

sunlit_music

I really loved the Barbie movie and I loved listening to your musings about it! It helps me think about it more deeply. I wouldn't describe this video as mid at all, it's amazing.

Finally watched it, after watching the Barbie movie. Interesting points. I like shorter videos and the tangent format. Myself I didn't mind the lack of romance as I usually prefer it that way. I can also understand the dolls being ace - they don't even have genitalia (whether that's being ace or something else I'll leave for others to argue, I think it's asexual but under another meaning). If it's no-sex because they are ace - yay. If it's because they are dolls - fine. If it comes from sex negativity - not that good. The women suck approach is something I encounter and have some weird feelings about as a woman-by-choice (I mean, it's that or being miserable but still). I see cis-women complaining and I understand why, but I'm in a way still struggling to get to a point where I can complain... When Barbie chose to become human I had some happy trans feelings. As for Ken... I think there are anxieties both of the incel type and of what exactly men do in a feminist utopia (well, plastic feminist utopia that's upside-down patriarchy), But the movie leaves him to figure it out as Barbie is leaving.

Anna the Smiling Cat

Tangent, tangent: what do you think of polyamory, moon mama?

Todd Haynes (director of Carol) made a low budget film of Karen Carpenter's death from anorexia using Barbies. It's an interesting experiment. I don't think it quite works but interesting critique of attitudes to women's bodies. It's available on YouTube.

Awesome video! Also, would you ever do ASMR? You have a very relaxing voice. 💕

June

It’s always such a trip when someone is beating themselves up over making something you really enjoy.

Chrombus

One population of men I've noticed who seem to strongly identify with Ken's arc are men in sexless relationships — I participate in a couple of subreddits about this and found it really interesting. Basically, these are men who are in very unhappy romantic relationships with women but are unwilling to leave them. It seems like many of them resonated with the arc of "learning to detach my feelings of self-worth from whether a specific woman wants to have sex with me." I also think that that mentality of "not knowing how to exist outside of the female gaze" is pretty prominent in incels, which then makes the idea that Ken gets "red-pilled" when he goes to Santa Monica fit pretty well.

The Kenclusion is that Ken is just a himbo and thats okay too

hi Mother, mommy, madre, I am finally a member of the contrapoints patreon, excited to be here 🥰

June

We have to move on from and ignore BS. He is certainly not worthy of you good deep thoughts Natalie... and all of ours <3

frogsmore

“I am not an easy man” is one of my favorite French films that has a very similar message but in a less shove-it-down-your-throat kind of way. Amazing video as always!

I like the aromantic undertone but I agree that aromanticism isn’t a feminist pillar

Just joined your Patreon and loving the Tangents!

I feel like it's a little bit disingenuous to criticize the twitter posts you used for being "boring takes". Maybe they aren't saying anything new or interesting, but I don't think these posts should be viewed as media criticism as much as awareness-raising or activism. I think activism is almost the opposite of intellectual work because in activism you're basically saying the same thing over and over and that's the point. And I get that it's annoying and not particularly intellectually stimulating to hear that the world is burning up every five minutes, but it is true. On the other hand I think there's a more interesting materialist critique to be made of the Barbie movie. It's coming out at a time of growing anxieties about climate change, mass destruction of eosystems and plastic waste in the oceans. There is a growing resentment against corporations that contribute to this. At the same time, there's a massive 90's wave. Barbie was essential to the redeeming of plastic (and in extension, petroleum and oil) in the eye of the public in the 90s and this was part of a coordinated effort by companies like Exxon-Mobile and Procter and Gamble. There's a Material Girls (former Witch Please) episode about this that I highly recommend. Both Marshall McLuhan and our friend Roland Barthes make an appearance (To quote Hannah; "Barthes would have loved Totally hair Barbie").

Yes! This is the kind of content we want for tangents. Hearing that you made it in 3 days is reassuring that you have time for your main projects haha!

It was very inclusive to include trans Barbie but then they literally end the film in real world gender essentialist euphoria. Perfect end to a woke washed summer fun flick. Go Greta I guess.

thanks fierce diva hunty slay yasss

Gloria's monologue sounds quite a bit akin to the Cool Girl rant from GONE GIRL. Not that I care about people "stealing" ideas, just thought it was noteable. If you haven't read GONE GIRL, then go read GONE GIRL. It's good! The movie sucked, though, don't watch that. But I sort of feel the movie monologue missed the opportunity to use doll as the metaphor for the idealized idea of woman, the same way as GONE GIRL used the "Cool Girl", or I maybe that was sorta implied and saying it would be too much on the nose? Haven't watched the movie, so what do I know. (And now I'm reminded of the insane comic book DOLL by Rip-off Press, where an ultra-realistic Lolita doll makes all men go crazy for her, because she is the perfect woman; she cannot speak and have no agency whatsoever. The doll was designed solely for a man whose hideous facial anormality he claim makes him unable to get a real girl---very much akin to todays Incel movement. And like in the comic, we also have realistic sex dolls today, curiously.) I watched this tangent after having rewatched Contrapoints 'Degeneracy', so it was sort of a revelation hearing her describe how certain guys fear that their masculinity might be degenerated by girly stuff much the same way racists fear degeneration from the lower races.

Hellström

You always just say what I think about it all this discourse in a coherent and witty way and I appreciate that!!

Erin Laura

The comparison between Barbie's final speech to Ken and Fight Club was mindblowing, but I feel an opportunity was missed to describe his ending as KGTOW, "Ken Going Their Own Way"

KL

Also, my favourite part was the Roland Barthes margarine story illustration and how Barbie is presented as a victim of mean girls by conflating the doll with a person played by Margot Robbie.

You: "Dumbest tangent ever" = me: "I can actually understand most of it!" :-D

Mark A. Maness

Dark mother has blessed us and we may now feed on her content

Noah C

Excellent. One of your best.

I loved it! I vote for Oppenheimer next!

Natalie. Darling. Sweetheart. Behbey. I like hearing you talk. You are a very talented writer and communicator. Your background and personality are so fundamentally different from my own that even your most mundane and boring insights are things I never would’ve thought of. It is something you’re making, and that means I probably want to see it. Great work as always

Woody Sims

Love the video! I think your points about the lack of romance/sexuality are really interesting. I used to make my Barbie’s kiss all the time, and I don’t know, I can’t be the only queer woman who’s first exploration into wlw relationships was by playing with Barbies. My straight sister also joked about how she and her friends definitely made the Barbies have sex with the one GI Joe doll that we had. But I get why they didn’t want to touch that. I liked the Barbie movie a lot, but it’s also an advertisement urging children to play with Barbies. There’s been a huge push in our culture against discussing sexuality with children. We’ve taken a huge step backwards in terms of sex education, not that it was ever very good to begin with. Q Anon has created a new Satanic Panic for the 21st century, and it’s not lost on me that another popular movie in theaters right now is The Sound of Freedom. I honestly don’t think the Barbie movie needed to include sexuality/romance, it’s one movie. But if more and more movies are going to be based on brands, and more and more brands are going to be fearful of a BudLight style backlash… yeah, that does concern me.

Kristen Gish

is there any update on main channel blockbusters thanks love you always

Re: margarine theory: I wonder if this is an extension of a “Citizens United/corporations (and their products) are individual entities with rights” kind of thinking. That’s some powerful shit right there. Yikes on bikes.

Andrew May

“in the interest of being philosophically rigorous about the Barbie movie” is my August mantra.

Andrew May

BTW, a stellar example of margarine propaganda is Charles Homan's lengthy article in Sunday's New York Times magazine about the ugly events in Loudoun County surrounding a sexual assault in one of their high schools. It had nothing to do with transgender protections in the school system, but he never comes out and says that, now does he? (Note; I grew up in Loudoun County -- and Homan has a painfully shallow understanding of its history). He humanizes the antagonists in this tale, and says nothing about those who suffer when trans issues are weaponized. He gives air time to bottom dwellers like Ian Prior, now one of Steven Miller's lackeys, including a photo of him in heroic pose. Homan is too skilled a writer to not know what he was doing and he uses all the propagandist's tricks. It is pure trash disguised as investigative reporting. Margarine journalism is an appropriately hued variety of yellow journalism and this is a textbook example. A JK redux. Your reference to Murdock's book made me connect the dots. Sorry folks if I verred off-topic but the match was too perfect for me to ignore.

Anyway, great stuff --now on to harpsichords, please.

I agree, dave & busters outings are always insanely liminal tbh

Jacob Michael

PS I don't agree that the subtext of the film is asexual or aromantic, nor that Barbie is necessarily either of those things. It simply doesn't feature in this part of her story, which is a reality worth depicting. Plus, one of the Kens at the end says he doesn't care about being Ken, he just wants his Barbie back, at which point, his Barbie returns and they are reunited.

Interesting video. I agree Ken's storyline is a little thin, but the contradictions of the film set this up in advance. In the reverse-patriarchy of Barbie world, Ken can neither be a true portrayal of masculinity (and its myriad failures), nor can he be a reverse-gender equivalent of a woman in the patriarchy. The result is his character ends up being both, yet not quite either of those things. Barbie's encounter with the real world is an encounter with real world patriarchy. Ken visits the same world and yet has a surface level reaction, despite not getting whatever he wants - and not getting that much at all, really. But he learns that men rule the world and takes that basic principle back to Barbie World when he leads his mutiny. But as your video points out, what he creates is not exactly a patriarchy but a cartoon caricature of patriarchy - a reverse-reverse patriarchy. So the despair he faces when Barbie takes back control and rejects his romantic advancements is not true masculine despair; it's simply a return to his previous irrelevance. Whatever it is he has to overcome at this point, it has no bearing on the shortcomings of masculinity in the real world. The only way the film can get around this is to make his redemption a goofy joke ('I am Kenough'). Despite this, he exhibits many traditional masculine scripts: his obnoxious, Andrew Tate-esque frat boy mansion, his domination of the women around him, his tireless complaints about being friend-zoned. Also the Kens mansplaining The Godfather and Stephen Malkmus, serenading the Barbies with mediocre guitar by a beach campfire...cartoonish, yes, but these are real things to which men aspire, real behaviours they exhibit. Yet when Barbie rejects him at the end, he says he only comes to life through the warmth of her eyes. You are right to point out that this is not a recognisable masculine script. However, men still require the validation of women under the patriarchy, and it is still is some sense life-giving. The difference is that feminine validation functions as reward (for living) rather than permission (to live). Men act prior to feminine validation; the attainment of the feminine love object is their reward for doing so, the completion of their storyline. It is life-giving in the sense that it retroactively justifies whatever struggles they have faced, whatever obstacles they have overcome. In the real world, when men do not receive this reward, their storyline has in effect failed completion. There is no light at the end of the tunnel. What was it all for? And then the onset of true masculine despair: self-hatred, ressentiment, hostility, and their destructive effects (and affects). Now, to overcome this, that would be a good commentary on masculinity...but it would be an entirely different film. Ken's not the point. He never was. Barbie's existential feminism is satisfying enough on its own.