Boombox117 : CH37 - Tartered Dragon

That´s good new as they say good things come with time its also about time we get some Celestial Ascendant really hyped about that one have you already thought out or haven an idea how the first contact is going to be?

Master Zen

2024-10-13 08:38:26 +0000 UTC

I appreciate your detailed response, but I think the fundamental issue remains unresolved, particularly regarding the implications of introducing entities with future manipulation capabilities. Let’s break this down further. You argue that the Old Gods losing influence in the known world correlates to a loss in their power. However, this argument hinges on the assumption that these entities derive their power from belief, which hasn’t been substantiated within the lore. As we know from Westerosi history, the origins of the Old Gods remains unknown. While the Children of the Forest worshipped them for thousands of years, there’s no evidence that their power is dependent on human or even Children of the Forest belief systems. Their ability to see and manipulate events in both the past and future suggests a much more omniscient presence, whether or not mortals still worship them. To take this further, what’s to say that events like the arrival of the First Men weren’t influenced or preordained by the Old Gods? Their “loss of influence” in Westeros could very well have been part of their design. Perhaps the Old Gods or other divine entities orchestrated the arrival of Andals, the rise of the Faith of the Seven, or even the conquest of Aegon the Conqueror, shaping events to suit a larger agenda. For instance, what if they showed visions to Hugor of the Hill, disguised as the Seven, to guide him to Westeros? What if, as the Faceless Men suggest, all these gods — the Old Gods, R’hllor, the Seven, the gods of Old Ghis, and others — are simply facets of one omniscient entity that nudges history toward a predetermined outcome? When you introduce such beings who can observe, influence, and manipulate both the past and future, you’re effectively creating a universe where everything has already been laid out. This is akin to the philosophical concept of Laplace’s demon, where, given perfect knowledge of the present, an entity could predict every future event because everything has already been determined by initial conditions. It doesn’t matter whether we label these entities as “gods” or not—by their ability to manipulate the timeline, they effectively are gods. In fictional terms, this is comparable to characters like Kang the Conqueror, who, although not divine, controls the Sacred Timeline in Marvel’s multiverse. Or Yahweh in the Lucifer comics, where the character controls everything that has happened, is happening, or will happen. Once such a being is introduced, you inevitably create a deterministic universe, and this severely undermines the stakes for mortal characters. Their choices seem irrelevant because events are predestined. Your comparison between these entities and mortals who are merely granted visions is fundamentally different. Mortals, such as Lessela or other priests, see only fragments of the future, often vague or partial. They make decisions based on incomplete information. In contrast, beings like the Old Gods—or whatever they truly are—see the full picture. They don’t need to guess or interpret; they can directly nudge events toward the outcome they want. A perfect example of this is Lessela saving Aegon from a “demon” based on a vision shown by her god. Whether she knew the full context of the event or not, it was preordained. The real question is: who or what sent the vision? It could just as easily have been one of these timeless entities influencing her actions. This brings us back to the central issue: the introduction of these beings makes the narrative feel deterministic. If every major event, from Daenys’ dream of the Doom to Aegon the Conqueror’s prophecy, is being shaped or orchestrated by these entities, what agency do the characters really have? Aegon’s choices, for instance, seem to matter less and less because everything that happens is already “written” in the future. This brings us into paradox territory with the intervention of Aegon’s grandson. If Aegon’s grandson is influencing the past from the future, and that future is already preordained, does Aegon have any real choice at all? His journey risks feeling like a video we’re watching—where everything has already happened, and we’re just waiting for certain scenes to play out. While this kind of timeline manipulation can be intriguing conceptually, it creates a serious disconnect for the reader. Once we realize that the characters’ decisions don’t affect the outcome because the outcome is already set, the stakes evaporate. This robs the story of tension, and, more importantly, it risks severing the emotional connection between readers and characters. If Aegon is just following a path laid out by some unseen hand, his struggles lose meaning, and it becomes hard to care about his choices, knowing they’re predetermined. Furthermore, the awareness of such determinism within the world would likely impact the characters themselves. Once they realize that their actions don’t truly matter in the grand scheme, wouldn’t they stop caring? That’s a troubling direction for the story and could potentially damage the narrative’s emotional core. The narrative would have remained non-deterministic if you had not introduced characters and entities like Aegon’s grandson and the Old Gods with the ability to interact with the past. If they were merely observers, it could have been argued (as you did in your reply) that they are only influencing the timeline in subtle ways rather than completely controlling it. However, since they can interact with the past, the storyline becomes deterministic. No matter what happens in the future, Aegon is guaranteed to have a grandson, which makes it ‘preordained’ that at least one of his children will have a son. This cannot be changed—even if all his children get attacked or they decide to jump of a mountain repeatedly, Aegon could still be certain that one of them would survive (even if he doesn’t know which) until his grandson is born. On the point of the return to Westeros arc your response makes some good points, but I still feel there's a disconnect in Aegon's character when it comes to his relationships with his family. On the one hand, we're told he cares deeply about them—his manipulations and distance are framed as strategic, not out of lack of love. But on the other hand, his actions paint a very different picture. He makes a clear effort to connect with certain characters like Aegon the Younger, Aemond, and even his uncle Vaegon, but then completely disregards his brothers, Baelon and Rhaenyra, essentially writing them off. I understand that Aegon doesn't want to involve himself in Westeros' politics, and he doesn’t have to. However, if he truly cared about his family, even on a basic level, it feels like he would at least try to remain neutral and build some kind of rapport with them. There’s a dissonance between Aegon being described as someone who loves and cares about his family, and the way he’s written as distant, cold, and indifferent to their fates. It feels like we’re dealing with two different versions of Aegon: the one we're being told about, and the one we actually see through his actions. Caring about someone means you make an effort, even if it’s difficult. If Aegon truly loved his family, especially knowing the dangers they're about to face, he wouldn’t just walk away or dismiss them out of hand(everyone other than the greens that is). He doesn’t have to involve himself deeply in their conflicts, but choosing not to even try to maintain a relationship or show any concern for their looming disaster makes it seem like he’s indifferent at best. If he genuinely doesn’t care about them, that would make more sense, but then the narrative should be clearer about that. It’s hard to reconcile his claimed love for them with his decision to let them go to their doom without making a serious effort to engage. I think I’ve expressed my thoughts as clearly as possible, and if this doesn’t prompt any reflection on the issues I’ve raised, then I suppose we’ll just have to agree to disagree. That said, I still love the story, especially everything before Myr’s conquest, which I believe is some of the best fanfiction I’ve read.

John Brown

2024-10-11 22:48:03 +0000 UTC

' more about how the concept of future manipulation impacts the stakes for the characters. Even with their limitations, once you introduce beings who can manipulate the future, it creates a deterministic world where the actions of mortals feel preordained. ' Not quite. A deterministic world would only happen if their power was absolute. If their power forced the stone that was dashed onto the still surface of the lake to bounce off without impacting the stillness of the lake. That is not the case. How else is their power fading? How else have they been relegated into a dark corner by Andals who pushed them and their descendants out from the most of the continent? You're still under the impression that the Old Gods are...Gods. They are not. From the context of a normal ignorant westerosi human, they might be something akin to a god but to someone who is aware...It would be like someone with a Glock being moved into bronze age earth. That is the equivalent to what these Old Gods are. That is the extent of their powers. Their powers do not come, not entirely, from themselves, and especially their visions is not a part of their native powers. They, like every other being or human who can divine the future, reads the ebbs and flows that comes from the Astral Plane, which is a reality not rooted in Time, which exactly why backwards causality is a function in this world. 'This can undermine tension because, as readers, we start to question the relevance of Aegon’s choices. If the Old Gods or other beings can nudge events as they see fit, does Aegon—or anyone, for that matter—truly have agency? The story risks becoming less about characters overcoming challenges and more about whether the ‘gods’ will allow them to succeed, which lowers the stakes for mortal characters.' This can undermine tension only if you deal with the absolute that the Old Gods are infallible and they are true gods, capable of stripping free will instead of believing that they rely on very clearly defined means of influencing others to do their bidding. You understand, or should at least, through the parts in the last chapter that details how the Old Gods speak in 'whispers', visit dreams, rely on symbology and otherwise, to nudge, as you say, events into their favour. With regards to the deaths of the Targaryens, that is no different than say the Citadel or the Faith or other enemies of House Targaryen to strike at them through subterfuge, even if it is done through magical means (i.e. infected birds or influenced servant/slave, etc). 'The backwards causality explanation makes sense within the paradoxical framework, but it still feels overly complex and somewhat undermines the human element of the narrative. A single timeline, influenced both forward and backward, can easily become confusing and paradoxical without clearer rules.' The human element of the narrative does not come without the magical element of the narrative and the nature of the world. This story, from the very first few chapters, tell you enough that Aegon wants to understand this world and one does not understand this world without exposing the hidden crevices that exist on the portrait of humanity and inhumanity. And yes, it can become confusing and paradoxical and that is how it seems at this stage in the perspective of Aegon and in the perspective of the Grandson, who are our window into how the fabric of this world works. It is no different than say someone in the fifteenth or sixteenth century investigating how the world worked in the scientific perspective in our own world. How Gravity worked. How to make watches work. Why some animals exists. Etc. 'How do we, as readers, invest in Aegon’s journey if the actions of his descendants are shaping his past in ways that feel arbitrary? If Aegon’s grandson’s intervention is predestined, how does that change the significance of Aegon’s choices?' Again, you're reading as if one leads directly into the other, that the descendants are the ones shaping his past. But that is not how it works. The descendants go back in time because they were always meant to go back in the past because Aegon is in that moment in time. His descendants wouldn't be able to go to that moment in time from their point of origin without it already having occurred in the past. It is Aegon's journey that drives the cause and it is his choices, his effects, that make that cause, his descendants, into going back in time. The past, the future, the present, they are all built on the choices that Aegon makes, in the present, in the past, in the future. He is the singularity that causes everything and there is a hint in the Grandson's perspective (the fracture) that helps you understand there is more to it than simply going back to the past. 'As for the shift towards magic, I understand you’re laying the groundwork for future events, but my concern is about balance. While magic can be intriguing, it feels like it’s overtaking the political intrigue that initially drew me in. This story has always had magic, but it was used sparingly to enhance the narrative without overshadowing the human conflict and political maneuvering. I’m missing that element of the story—the tension between personal ambition, family loyalties, and political strategy.' Your concern is about balance is understood but ultimately, I cannot agree that there is an absence of balance. The focus of the magic is directly related to the political intrigue. Why is Aegon so focused on learning magic? Is it because it fascinates him? Probably, but the shift in his learning, from the beginning to this very last chapter, tells you that his learning is a lot more focused on learning how to counteract beings, entities, that exist and that are hidden from the human world. Poorly hidden. In this very chapter, you learn that the Old Gods have a vested interest in the Song of Ice and Fire, you learn that there are more beings that exist, one of them being effectively Aegon's champion when he had been helpless, and you learn that Aegon's descendants are involved in the near and distant future. Involved in what? Involved in manoeuvring against an enemy that inevitably involve some sort of political intrigue. Yes, it is a setup for a distant point in time, but nonetheless the core of the story - exploration, world building, kingdom building, political manoeuvring, etc - is kept close even if the scope of it will change in the future around the time of GOT. About your missing the element, the human element...that is still the main part of Aegon's journey, but as always that is changing. Personal ambition is nearing completion - he has his Elamaerys, he has his kingdom of progress and he has a safe haven for his family. Family loyalties? This has long shifted towards Gael and their children and his ability to change the outcome is as likely as the King of Sweden being capable of stopping the first world war. The table has been set, even without the interest of the Old Gods, which, to be honest, have had no real need to intervene because this war was always happening. Now, or later. Political Strategy? This has not strayed at all, even if the focus has been different in the last two chapters. It seems to me that you're seriously making an ant hill of this chapter, and the previous I suppose, because the expectations you had of Aegon's return to Kings Landing was not met, despite the fact that the story of the three brothers was never the core of this story. Not even fractionally. 'Regarding Daemon, I understand that the two didn’t have a close relationship, but that’s precisely why I feel more interaction was needed. Conflict between estranged characters is often where the richest drama lies. Even if Aegon didn’t care for Daemon, seeing them interact more directly, with tension or indifference, would have added a layer of complexity to both characters. Right now, Daemon’s death feels more like a plot point than an emotional moment for Aegon, which weakens its impact.' Daemon's death is not an emotional moment for Aegon. The two are more than just estranged. Viserys and Aegon are estranged. Daemon and Aegon do not care for the other, except that they share blood. Not really. Adding a layer of complexity to both characters, or rather their relationship, by having them interact with one another, could have been nice to read, from a drama perspective, and perhaps I should have a nice little scene or maybe five other chapters to expand on this...it would only take away from the story. There are characters that matter in this story. Daemon, for all that he was a key character in HOTD, in this story, is not. In Westeros, it is Viserys, Rhaenyra, Alicent, Aegon, Baelon, Aemond, the Velaryons and the Hightowers. Daemon falls in the Bartimos category. A periphery character. 'As for Aegon’s manipulative tendencies, I don’t dispute that manipulation is part of his character, but it’s the lack of emotional connection that feels jarring. His interactions with his family feels very utilitarian, which contrasts with the claim that he loves and cares for them. ' From Aegon's perspective...he comes to court. Doesn't even have to spend more than a day to realise it is as bad as he feared. Spends a week. Sees that Baelon and Rhaenyra are strangers who have little interest in him and he sees little reason to try and persevere to bond with them knowing that he isn't going to have time nor does he think he'll be able to be successful. Doesn't try, in the end. What is the point, he thinks to himself. They won't listen to anything I might have to say. If I do say something, I end up causing the other half of my family to be in danger before they can defend themselves. Etc etc. What is the point, is what you have to understand. What is the point in trying to change something that you don't have the time to change, what is the point, what is the point, what is the point. Aegon cares for them yes. He's cared for them since they were born. Still cares for them now even if they do not in turn. But ultimately, what does that matter, what is the point, when he knows the reality of the situation would result in him being involved in a way that he does not want to, and more importantly, does not want his family to be involved in? Viserys is the one who could have stopped this conclusion. But he sees Viserys and decides that there is no point there either. And ultimately, his utmost goal - without entangling himself in the snake pit thanks to his actions in Myr or this prophet stuff - was and is always Elamaerys and his children. Baelon and Rhaenyra will not compare to that. 'If he’s playing a long game, we need to see more of his internal conflict or personal stakes to understand why he’s so distant or manipulative. Without that, it feels cold and distant in a way that makes it hard to root for him.' There is more than enough in previous chapters to tell you why he's so distant and manipulative in the other POVs in this chapter and before. And what is it that you want to root for in this present situation? To evade the disaster that is the Dance? Even without the Old Gods, that is near impossible and would require him to be there in Kings Landing and even then, it is unlikely to be possible. There are just too many claims, too many interests, that Aegon would have to remove. One of them would have had to be Daemon. Aegon had a main goal in his return. To ensure his brother's family wouldn't be a pest to his Elamaerys. He got it. Everything else, is something that is personal to him. And you see that with Aegon the Younger and in their interactions. He sees him and the others as innocent and you see it in his interactions that he genuinely cares for them but he also knows that unless he literally kidnaps them, he won't be able to do anything for them. Not without their agreements. Even Aemond, the second son who is dragonless, is prized too highly to be removed from their influence. 'Lastly, I get that the journey was always about Elamaerys and the future of his family, but the way the Westeros plotline was set up made it seem like Aegon’s interactions with his brothers would be more significant. If they’re merely obstacles to him, then that needs to come through more clearly in the narrative. Otherwise, it feels like there was a lot of buildup for something that ended up being underwhelming.' The Westeros Plotline doesn't end here. It never did. The main point always was getting Elamaerys secured, more than it already was, and the Old Gods plot closing out. And the only reason why you think the Westeros plotline was set up to be more significant is because of the Viserys POVs. And in his POVs, you can see he had far different expectations in Aegon's return. Anyway, thanks for your comment. It was interesting.

Mosef

2024-10-11 18:43:32 +0000 UTC

I appreciate your response and the clarifications, but I still feel there are some fundamental issues that remain unresolved, both in terms of the plot mechanics and character development. Firstly, regarding the Old Gods and the limitations of their foresight—if they are not omniscient, as you’ve mentioned, that’s fair. But the issue is less about their absolute knowledge and more about how the concept of future manipulation impacts the stakes for the characters. Even with their limitations, once you introduce beings who can manipulate the future, it creates a deterministic world where the actions of mortals feel preordained. This can undermine tension because, as readers, we start to question the relevance of Aegon’s choices. If the Old Gods or other beings can nudge events as they see fit, does Aegon—or anyone, for that matter—truly have agency? The story risks becoming less about characters overcoming challenges and more about whether the ‘gods’ will allow them to succeed, which lowers the stakes for mortal characters. The backwards causality explanation makes sense within the paradoxical framework, but it still feels overly complex and somewhat undermines the human element of the narrative. A single timeline, influenced both forward and backward, can easily become confusing and paradoxical without clearer rules. How do we, as readers, invest in Aegon’s journey if the actions of his descendants are shaping his past in ways that feel arbitrary? If Aegon’s grandson’s intervention is predestined, how does that change the significance of Aegon’s choices? As for the shift towards magic, I understand you’re laying the groundwork for future events, but my concern is about balance. While magic can be intriguing, it feels like it’s overtaking the political intrigue that initially drew me in. This story has always had magic, but it was used sparingly to enhance the narrative without overshadowing the human conflict and political maneuvering. I’m missing that element of the story—the tension between personal ambition, family loyalties, and political strategy. The last few chapters, since the Myr sky incident in particular, felt like they were more focused on world-building and less on the complex interpersonal relationships that originally gave the story its depth. If the magic system is central to Aegon’s arc, that’s fine, but it shouldn’t come at the expense of the personal and political stakes, especially given how much time was invested in setting up his return to Westeros. Regarding Daemon, I understand that the two didn’t have a close relationship, but that’s precisely why I feel more interaction was needed. Conflict between estranged characters is often where the richest drama lies. Even if Aegon didn’t care for Daemon, seeing them interact more directly, with tension or indifference, would have added a layer of complexity to both characters. Right now, Daemon’s death feels more like a plot point than an emotional moment for Aegon, which weakens its impact. As for Aegon’s manipulative tendencies, I don’t dispute that manipulation is part of his character, but it’s the lack of emotional connection that feels jarring. His interactions with his family feels very utilitarian, which contrasts with the claim that he loves and cares for them. If he’s playing a long game, we need to see more of his internal conflict or personal stakes to understand why he’s so distant or manipulative. Without that, it feels cold and distant in a way that makes it hard to root for him. Lastly, I get that the journey was always about Elamaerys and the future of his family, but the way the Westeros plotline was set up made it seem like Aegon’s interactions with his brothers would be more significant. If they’re merely obstacles to him, then that needs to come through more clearly in the narrative. Otherwise, it feels like there was a lot of buildup for something that ended up being underwhelming.

John Brown

2024-10-11 02:27:55 +0000 UTC

Yes, there'll be a sequel but not in the near future. Eternal Pharoah, Celestial Ascendant, Ammortamento, HxH OC-SI, Hohenheim (I haven't forgotten!) will need to be finished before I start that one. So...I'd say at least two-three years. lol.

Mosef

2024-10-11 00:28:22 +0000 UTC

I'd say he's probably quite mid. He gets better towards the end but his descendants will get much, much better. Or at least more understanding which is the same really when it comes to this world.

Mosef

2024-10-11 00:26:39 +0000 UTC

1) 'An enemy who can see and manipulate the future isn't someone you can fight'. That would be true if they were truly omniscient but they are not. They are as flawed as most other means of divination in this world, perhaps less so, but they are flawed. Otherwise, their culture, their religion, their hold on Westeros would not be so tenuous and so shadowy as it is presently. 2) And yes, you can never be sure if your actions are your own, nor that of others, when you understand the grasp of it but one thing you have to remember is that the Old Gods have limits and tells of how they manipulate others in order to manipulate the future. Aegon understands it and so will his family (and people). 3) In terms of your possible scenarios - not quite. You're missing the key point - backwards causality. There are no timeline shifts, there is only one timeline. The Future affects the past and creates events non-linearly in time within the physical world. Aegon's grandson always went back to that point in time before Aegon was ever born, before he ever did any action. That intervention creates the very events that lead to the grandson which only happened because the grandson went to the past. It is a paradoxical thing that is only possible because of the 'spiritual world' where impossibilities are a matter of rule. 4) Anyone can shape the future. Yes, the Old Gods and what the Red Priests understand as R'hllor are powerful but they are not 'true gods'. From a normal human perspective, yes, they might seem like it, but they are extremely limited beings. Otherwise, they, particularly the Old Gods, wouldn't be limited as they are now in comparison to before when they were the defacto rulers of Westeros. 5) Re: the magic. Yes, presently I am focusing on that. Mostly because I sort of have to. It sets the foundation of the 'magic-system'. As it has been, you, the reader, have been part of the journey of Aegon's increasing understanding of the magic of this world and the nature of the 'gods' that exist. A natural outcome of that is a conclusion of the extent of the challenge that faces him and certainly his descendants. That had to be established and it was better to do it at this point than later on. 6) Yes, the appeal of ASOIAF is political intrigue but that is not all there is and that is not what this book is ultimately about. It should be clear that Aegon despises Westeros and its system. It is why he left, it is why he chose not to remain any longer than he had to. With regards to the trip to Westeros being so mundane...if you were in Aegon's shoes, with the goals you had (wanting to establish a final settlement with Viserys and maybe picking up the ideal match with your daughter) why on earth would you want to push yourself into the narrative and intrigues of the court? With regards to no meaningful interaction with Daemon...what interaction is there? From the first chapter, you could tell the two never had any care for the other, not really. Do you think that would change? What benefit does Aegon gain from sniping back in a castle where he is effectively powerless unless he does something drastic? What would be the point of showing those interactions that would extend the story by another chapter or two? Similarly, Rhaenyra would have been no meaningful interaction. What interaction could Aegon have with someone who has opinions that he has no time for? The only one who might have been worth expanding on was Baelon but again, interactions with him would have felt limited because of his allegiances. Re the Greens and it being manipulation...Do you not think that Aegon in general is not a manipulative person? He is doing it largely for the benefit for everyone but ultimately, he is manipulative. He is like so with his eldest sons whom he manipulates into a way of thinking that he believes is best for his family and their people and then there is his manipuiations of his people? How is that out of character when you consider what he was trying to do with Aemond? With Aegon the Younger, whom he clearly sees as someone who is neglected and could do with some positive reinforcements? Alicent is the only one who he is excessive with and that is mostly because she's not really family. The entire reason for the journey was never the brothers. It is, and always will be, Elamaerys and the future of his family. Viserys and Daemon were only obstacles to that. Once h e got what he wanted, more or less, their part in his journey was unimportant. That is at least my thinking. I do know that you guys wanted more drama and more brothers but my muse has taken me in this direction.

Mosef

2024-10-11 00:25:07 +0000 UTC

1) Daemon's sons will have a role to play in the story to come. There may be a good opinion that it might have been better to have let the boys be forgotten. 2) That is the plan with Maegelle, yes. I'm not sure there is any other possibility ever since he's decided to take her with him. Rhaena's situation hasn't changed however Castorys' has, naturally. 3) Breannei and Maegelle will be an interesting little plot, especially with Breannei being old enough to understand the situation and her own reflection in it. 4) Baelon and Rhaenyra were quite honestly difficult to write, mostly because I don't see how he could have had a good relationship with them to begin with. They are/had been firmly in the Daemon camp and he obviously would not allow them to see him as anything other than the way he saw him. Distrustful. 5) Alicent is a bit naive in the same way Rhaenyra is when it comes to politics and intrigue. In all honesty, both of them are quite unsuitable for the game of thrones. It is a shame though. Aemond would have probably loved Elamaerys. Helaena too. 6) Aegon didn't outplay the Old Gods so much. More, whatever brought him there outplayed the Old Gods the moment Aegon's Soul materialised in baby Aegon. Completely removed himself? No. It'll be a situation that will be long affecting his branch despite the distance. 7) Good impression. 8) Not long at all. Those who know magic probably know it well that he is a sorcerer. Even those who don't use it, suspect him of it. The memory of the Dragonlords of Valyria is still present, after all.

Mosef

2024-10-10 23:56:35 +0000 UTC

The concept of beings who can see and control the future is interesting, but there’s a major issue that I’m not sure makes sense. An enemy who can see and manipulate the future isn’t someone you can fight, because no matter what you do, they’d already know about it. You could never be certain if your actions are your own or if you’ve been manipulated into doing exactly what they want. While it’s an intriguing chapter, I don’t understand how Aegon’s ‘Grandson’ going back in time works. Logically, the Old Gods should know about his attempts to interfere and would make adjustments to the timeline to ensure things unfold according to their plan. It also doesn’t make sense for future generations to influence anything without destroying the timeline. There are two possible scenarios here. First, Aegon died at the God’s Eye, leading his descendants to pursue magic to save him and take revenge on the Old Gods. This causes a timeline shift, creating a branch where they intervened and he survived. However, this would mean the original timeline, where he died, would cease to exist because its existence depends on Aegon’s death. The second scenario is that Aegon survived and needed to plant the tree on Elamaerys but didn’t want to. This could have led him to research magic, sending his Grandson back in time to remove the ‘essence’ from the seed, making it possible to plant the tree but denying the Old Gods power in Elamaerys. This change would also cause a timeline shift, because the timeline where Aegon’s Grandson exists hinges on Aegon planting the weirwood tree with the ‘essence’ intact, so if that didn’t happen, their timeline would get pruned. These scenarios don’t even take into account the immense power of the Old Gods and R’hllor, who can see and shape the future. This is the fundamental problem with stories involving characters who can control the future: the world becomes deterministic. No matter what mental gymnastics other characters do, they can’t win against an omniscient force. So either I’m missing something, or this doesn’t make sense. PS: I think you’re leaning too much into the magic aspect. ASOIAF’s appeal was never about magic at its core. Sure, there’s some magic in the world (it’s a book with dragons, after all), but it was never the central plot line. What drew me to your story in the first place was the book-accurate political intrigue and subterfuge, which has been missing from the last few chapters. The entire trip to Westeros felt so mundane, with not much happening aside from Daemon’s death. And honestly, that could have happened whether Aegon was in Westeros or not. There were no meaningful interactions between Aegon and Daemon, or really anyone else for that matter. Rhaenyra is portrayed as an entitled brat and brushed off, Baelon is dismissed as uninterested, and the only real effort Aegon makes to connect with his family is with the Greens and that too is for manipulation. For someone who claims to love and care for his family and to be neutral in the future conflict, that feels out of character and ultimately unsatisfying for the readers. This return to Westeros had been building for over 15 chapters, and it ends up being a letdown. There’s too much focus on the Velaryons and the Greens, while the interactions between Aegon, his brothers, and other Targaryens—the entire reason for this journey—are neglected.

John Brown

2024-10-10 23:45:47 +0000 UTC

In the books Velaryons were not mixed race, so I believe you went with the show description of them because all descriptions of them before the HoTD show represents them as fair skinned, silver haired and violet eyed like all Valyrian houses.

John Brown

2024-10-10 23:06:25 +0000 UTC

Good chapter as always. I am slightly disappointed that Daemon is in fact dead, would have liked it better had he still been alive. But it looks like Daemon's illegitimate sons will be looked after by the Celtigars and Viserys knows about them and he might legitimize them later on due to his love for Daemon, where as Aegon is taking Daemon's daughter back to Elamaerys so she will eventually marry his youngest son. though I am wondering now who Aegon will marry Rhaena to, as I am sure he much rather she marry on of Viserys' sons. At least Briennie will will have another half sister with her so she will see that Aegon does not treat her any different than he does his real children. Moving on it looks like Rhaenyra is being given some harsh truths by Rhea about her current situation though she still seem to be somewhat entitled where she think that Aegon should let her have the Elamaerys which he and his people and found and built with their own blood, sweat and tears. Viserys definitely spoiled her too much given than she believes that Aegon should defer to her. Its a pity that Baelon and Rhaenyra have such a negative view of Aegon, given that he has done nothing to deserve such a view from them, hopefully they will not antagonize him in the future. Alicent should have expected that Aegon would decide to reject the bethrothal between Aemond and Rhaena, given that Aegon;s condition for teh Celtigars marrying into his branch of House Targaryen involved their daughters being fostered and raised in Elamaerys. So, it looks like Aegon has managed to outplay the Old Gods and removed the Old God's soul from the Wierwood seed he was given. Does this mean that Aegon has managed to completely remove himself and his family from the influence of the Old Gods and the Children of the Forest? I also get the impression that Aegon's branch of House Targaryen are going to be at war with the Old Gods and will be seeking to destroy them. Aegon's family migth very well come to embody the saying that "Targaryens like their Dragons answer to neither gods of men". How long will Aegon be able to the fact that he is a sorcerror hidden from the rest of known world?

Sukhraj Singh

2024-10-07 16:20:38 +0000 UTC

How powerful is Aegon compared to his descendants? He doesn't really seem that strong magically.

Real_Proster

2024-10-06 22:55:43 +0000 UTC

It seems thing's are coming close to the end. Will there be a sequel sometime in the future? I really like the story and it would be interesting to see the aftermath or what Aegon actions influenced what we know what the original westeros was supposed to be.

Master Zen

2024-10-05 10:14:26 +0000 UTC

Not in this story. This story will end one or two chapters after Aegon dies. There'll be a timeline before the sequel to detail what happened in both lands

Mosef

2024-10-04 12:17:05 +0000 UTC

HunterxHunter? Hmmmm interesting. Uh one last question. In this story (or its sequel) will we see blackfyres try and interact with elam. Or is that straight cannon as well. Also, same question with with second civil war targs. Basically, will targs that run from the mainland attempt anything with elam or remain basically canon?

Robolo42

2024-10-04 12:04:08 +0000 UTC

In the future can they use cannons, guns and weird renaissance tanks?

Real_Proster

2024-10-04 11:06:38 +0000 UTC

The tech of Elamaerys is still present era, just slowly ramping up. When Aegon returns, that starts to change

Mosef

2024-10-04 10:40:53 +0000 UTC

Re interference, can't comment! The sequel won't happen until after eternal pharoah is finished and Celestial Ascendant. Probably not until after the HunterXhunter either. Yes, we'll see bloodraven later. Though his arrival will be not per canon, per se.

Mosef

2024-10-04 10:39:48 +0000 UTC

Is the technology of Elmaerys similar to that of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy?

Real_Proster

2024-10-04 10:20:04 +0000 UTC

This is by far my favorite ASOIAF fanfiction, and I have read a ton of them. The magic ritual seemed more xiaxia than typical magic from the series which I always pictured more cthulhu style. Overall great chapter though and I love the conclusion to this Arc. Not sure if I want a time skip to the GOT timeline or read about some kingdom building while getting fed info from the dance of dragons.

Matthew Jacob Zarember

2024-10-04 07:39:55 +0000 UTC

Does that involve mass production of metals like steels? Can they make steel ships by then? Considering their location steel ships are very important to maintain their naval superiority

Duy

2024-10-04 05:48:50 +0000 UTC

I mean we all know his descendants were going do well with the tidbits mentioned about the war of dawns in liberty bay.

Duy

2024-10-04 05:43:23 +0000 UTC

Only really some aspects of HOTD. Like the Velaryons mainline mixed race heritage and Viserys' characteristics. Most of it is the books. Aegon only knows GOT and some lore related to the show. He's not read the books and not seen HOTD

Mosef

2024-10-04 00:28:55 +0000 UTC

Hi, just want clarification regarding setting: This fic is based on the HOTD show with book elements or no book elements? How much knowledge does Aegon have regarding the setting and characters? I noticed that he doesn’t seem to recognize certain characters. Thanks

Endless.108

2024-10-03 23:51:11 +0000 UTC

It would be the logical choice but Rhaenyra has an inflated ego and big pride. She will hate being forced to go and get his support especially since she knows he won’t be under her rule. Don’t forget Daemon has been around her for much longer and has distorted her view of Aegon in one perspective his. The same with Baelon.

John

2024-10-03 03:22:35 +0000 UTC

Is Rhea going to push Rhaenyra to get ageon on her side as he might be her only chance to hold the throne as with Daemon dead she doesn’t appear to have any strong allies.

Mark

2024-10-02 09:33:55 +0000 UTC

they will be the extra dragon riders to balance the scales for the death of daemon in terms of dragons and experience in dragon riding... maybe

Hamed Al-Ghamdi

2024-10-01 22:43:02 +0000 UTC

Aegon is still held by the deal. The only difference is that there won't be an old god in the seed

Mosef

2024-10-01 05:45:28 +0000 UTC

Man maybe you're writer of asoiaf 🤯🤯

Christian Miguel

2024-10-01 05:28:22 +0000 UTC

not sure if i liked this chapter, two reasons: - felt very deus ex machina that his timetravelling descendants helped him get out of the deal - took a lot of suspense out of the story that one his descendants is around and doing well

costochondritis

2024-10-01 04:55:01 +0000 UTC

Man I love time travel stories. They tend to be an either you can’t change anything, or you change everything. Nice to see one that breaks the mold, as it seems that in this world you can change time but there are serious limitations and costs to do so. Best part is that the story doesn’t require me to have a PHD to understand.

Warband USA

2024-10-01 02:56:13 +0000 UTC

Ok that was wonderful mate honestly. I was wondering if we would get any interference from Aegon after the civil war or anything like that, but I don’t think we will now. What with a pact to basically stay the fuck out of dodge. And reading the comments we are actually getting a fucking sequel? Wtf? You better finish eternal pharouh and amort first motherfucker. I don’t want to see it even mentioned until they are completed and we are halfway through celestial. lol. Anyway I’ve also read mention of tech level. Will we be sticking around the 14-17 hundreds era tech, cause that is the renaissance. I mean we are already moving there, but the arquebus and musket are prime examples of personal firepower. More relevant tech is compass, water power, print press, flywheel, astrolabe, dry dock, chemistry, glasses, pumps. They have it all. We don’t need to push too far, but I can understand the appeal. In later chapters or works will we see bloodraven, cause I think he still comes about, will we see him try and come only to get his ass thrown out the fucking door? I wonder how the Westeros targs will think and deal with the elam targs after the civil war?

Robolo42

2024-09-30 23:10:22 +0000 UTC

Oh man. Sacrifing his own men, even if they did it willingly is so messed up. And i hope magic will only play a minor role in the future. I dont like all this fate crap and forced subjugation of Aegon because of one little promise. Damn, its a great chapter and greaty written but i want to nuke the entire Planet now. Fuck. Please more kingdom building (its been ages since we had some of that) and, wow, your take on the old gods is sooooo different and cruel and evil. Fuck man. I hope magic doesnt play a big role in the future. Bunch of sorcerer weardos. Life is better of without them.

Alnatura

2024-09-30 21:17:45 +0000 UTC

I'm going to pretend that i completely understood what you said

KAZUHA02

2024-09-30 19:56:31 +0000 UTC

There is no original timeline - there is only one timeline. What you're seeing is that there is no real 'order' (in certain circumstances) when it comes to future, present, past which is because of the 'astral plane' which exists outside of time but remains connected to the physical plane. This has allowed 'quirks' to exist when it comes to the sequences of events where events in the future can cause an effect in the past which then cause an effect in the present. Thanks re the magical explanation, lol. I like having explanation of how things works so I tend to let that bleed into my writing!

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:55:19 +0000 UTC

We all time travel to the future!

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:47:27 +0000 UTC

I wouldn't quite say that they are in the industrial revolution, but rather that there are some parts of their society that is far, far ahead for its time which is thanks to Aegon and the Alchemist Guilds. It will be Wildfyre derived stuff, basically. And yeah, Aegon's descendants are fully fletched 'sorcerers'.

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:46:52 +0000 UTC

No, not quite. There are no divergent Timelines or anything like that. There's a hint in the Ghost POV that clues you in as to what the nature of time travel and causality is in this world.

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:44:40 +0000 UTC

The story is wrapping up in the sense that the kingdom building sequences will now begin. The Dance will be covered, of course, but it is really not the core of the story.

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:42:07 +0000 UTC

Ooh, nice. That's a badass helmet tbf

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:41:05 +0000 UTC

I would say it's not so much as influencing past events. It suggests that they can do it willy nilly. Which isn't the case, not really. There's hints as what is possible though in the POV.

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:40:38 +0000 UTC

Basically a little view of the kind of shenanigans Aegon's descendants are a part of. other than that...can't say too much. Most of it would follow and explained in the sequel (a long while from now).

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:39:15 +0000 UTC

I know right! TBF you'd probably do the world a favour by getting rid of Weirwood trees...apparently they're quite bad re nature's growth around one of them.

Mosef

2024-09-30 19:37:49 +0000 UTC

Okay, so in the original timeline, Aegon waged war against the Old Gods and the results were not so good If I am understanding it correctly. And this 'Her' and his descendants have somehow find a way to create a new timeline to change the past, so Aegon doesn't have to plant the spying and fate manipulation tree cretins in Elamaerys and dig claws in his branch of the family? Still, this Heart Tree business is complicated and so much convulated. So, did Aegon achieve something better than his previous self in the original timeline? Also, you did a fine job at the exploration in the magic stuff in Planetos, it's the best one I have read so far. It's not like the typical flimsy mana stuff.

KAZUHA02

2024-09-30 18:57:06 +0000 UTC

Daemon - Rhaenyra

Skruffy

2024-09-30 15:48:10 +0000 UTC

Loved it. I can't wait for the next chapter so I'm gonna time travel into the future.

Kayson Dukes

2024-09-30 15:45:25 +0000 UTC

I really do hope we get The Dance as well, just for the salt. It does feel like it's wrapping up, the last part could be considered an epilogue.

Master of Bunnies

2024-09-30 11:40:12 +0000 UTC

It seems that Deamon taught Rhaenys to be an idiot who gets carried away by emotions and to be just as blind as viserys, I'm dying to read the day she regrets how immature she was and not seek support from Aegon the old, maybe even her children and grandchildren of hers think that Eela was an idiot for not forging an alliance with him and leaving them without dragons, The Targaryens of Westeros are screwed

Jose Vasquéz

2024-09-30 10:53:34 +0000 UTC

Thanks for the chapter. Aegon finally uncovers the truth of who is the real enemy or the one who´s been manipulating and causing tragedies in his family is mind blowing.

Master Zen

2024-09-30 08:28:34 +0000 UTC

Cosmic🤯🤯 That Aegon created what you could say as one with the force and apparently his descendants are very powerful, and what I just read it seems that Aegon's grandson generation are already in the industrial revolution with steam engines and trains, I just hope they don't sell their inventions to Westeros because they are very ignorant and that it's only for their allies

Jose Vasquéz

2024-09-30 03:15:59 +0000 UTC

where did it imply he never came back

Omgitsbakon

2024-09-30 02:57:36 +0000 UTC

Awesome chapter. I’m assuming his grandchildren lived in an age where argon did not come back, and basically time travelled to save him at the risk of their lives?

Koxinov

2024-09-30 02:36:02 +0000 UTC

Wonderful chapter as always! This story is so well thought out, I can’t imagine how much time you devote to creating it. Thank you for sharing your work 😊

Te

2024-09-30 02:03:32 +0000 UTC

Dude…were we even reading the same thing? Everyone has their own opinion - even wild ones, like this - but please be respectful.

Te

2024-09-30 02:01:39 +0000 UTC

Amazing chapter!! Loved the magic ritual and the snapshot at the future. Kinda feels like that wraps up the last major plot point tho, is the story wrapping up?

Ari Rapalino

2024-09-30 01:56:39 +0000 UTC

Mysteries yet to be uncovered it seems.

Skruffy

2024-09-30 01:09:54 +0000 UTC

Honestly when he got the helmet and the way it was described am I the only one who pictured Dr Fates helmet from DC but in Valyrian steel colouring.

Abdi

2024-09-30 00:33:15 +0000 UTC

damn this chapter was awesome. so at some point in time, Aegon's descendants will gain the ability to influence past events like the three eyed ravens through some sort of astral projection, or subtler means of mental manipulation.

Duy

2024-09-30 00:27:04 +0000 UTC

Another great chapter like always

Grace Gast

2024-09-29 23:18:59 +0000 UTC

Mind blowing

Jles

2024-09-29 23:17:05 +0000 UTC

When the last POV happened I went absolutely nuts! What a hint for future things!!!

Yesman

2024-09-29 23:02:27 +0000 UTC

Wow a lot to unpack from this chap. But great way to end the Westeros Arc and glad he confronted the Children of the Forest as they would be a big problem left unchecked for Aegon’s family. Also glad that Rhaena not Marrying Aemond. I’m interested in how Viserys will interact with Daemon Bastard sons and how they affect the story going forward. Thanks for the chap and cant wait for the next.

Dragonslayer29

2024-09-29 23:01:31 +0000 UTC

Wow! Any explanation for what’s happening at the end there?

ksri

2024-09-29 22:49:08 +0000 UTC

Great chapter, I loved the use of time travel and all the hints of something to come. Its weird rooting for deforestation for once.

Jordan

2024-09-29 22:38:30 +0000 UTC

Big fan of your stories, thanks for writing. These last two chapters were trash! The main character acts like an idiot, it feels like you want to kill this story. Take a well deserved break and reload. Good luck!

Ted min

2024-09-29 22:23:47 +0000 UTC

Thanks for the chapter

IgnisPrimus

2024-09-29 22:10:20 +0000 UTC

CH37 - Tartered Dragon

Comments

That´s good new as they say good things come with time its also about time we get some Celestial Ascendant really hyped about that one have you already thought out or haven an idea how the first contact is going to be?

Yes, there'll be a sequel but not in the near future. Eternal Pharoah, Celestial Ascendant, Ammortamento, HxH OC-SI, Hohenheim (I haven't forgotten!) will need to be finished before I start that one. So...I'd say at least two-three years. lol.

I'd say he's probably quite mid. He gets better towards the end but his descendants will get much, much better. Or at least more understanding which is the same really when it comes to this world.

In the books Velaryons were not mixed race, so I believe you went with the show description of them because all descriptions of them before the HoTD show represents them as fair skinned, silver haired and violet eyed like all Valyrian houses.

How powerful is Aegon compared to his descendants? He doesn't really seem that strong magically.

It seems thing's are coming close to the end. Will there be a sequel sometime in the future? I really like the story and it would be interesting to see the aftermath or what Aegon actions influenced what we know what the original westeros was supposed to be.

Not in this story. This story will end one or two chapters after Aegon dies. There'll be a timeline before the sequel to detail what happened in both lands

In the future can they use cannons, guns and weird renaissance tanks?

The tech of Elamaerys is still present era, just slowly ramping up. When Aegon returns, that starts to change

Re interference, can't comment! The sequel won't happen until after eternal pharoah is finished and Celestial Ascendant. Probably not until after the HunterXhunter either. Yes, we'll see bloodraven later. Though his arrival will be not per canon, per se.

Is the technology of Elmaerys similar to that of the Empire from Warhammer Fantasy?

Does that involve mass production of metals like steels? Can they make steel ships by then? Considering their location steel ships are very important to maintain their naval superiority

I mean we all know his descendants were going do well with the tidbits mentioned about the war of dawns in liberty bay.

Only really some aspects of HOTD. Like the Velaryons mainline mixed race heritage and Viserys' characteristics. Most of it is the books. Aegon only knows GOT and some lore related to the show. He's not read the books and not seen HOTD

Hi, just want clarification regarding setting: This fic is based on the HOTD show with book elements or no book elements? How much knowledge does Aegon have regarding the setting and characters? I noticed that he doesn’t seem to recognize certain characters. Thanks

Is Rhea going to push Rhaenyra to get ageon on her side as he might be her only chance to hold the throne as with Daemon dead she doesn’t appear to have any strong allies.

they will be the extra dragon riders to balance the scales for the death of daemon in terms of dragons and experience in dragon riding... maybe

Aegon is still held by the deal. The only difference is that there won't be an old god in the seed

Man maybe you're writer of asoiaf 🤯🤯

not sure if i liked this chapter, two reasons: - felt very deus ex machina that his timetravelling descendants helped him get out of the deal - took a lot of suspense out of the story that one his descendants is around and doing well

I'm going to pretend that i completely understood what you said

We all time travel to the future!

No, not quite. There are no divergent Timelines or anything like that. There's a hint in the Ghost POV that clues you in as to what the nature of time travel and causality is in this world.

The story is wrapping up in the sense that the kingdom building sequences will now begin. The Dance will be covered, of course, but it is really not the core of the story.

Ooh, nice. That's a badass helmet tbf

I would say it's not so much as influencing past events. It suggests that they can do it willy nilly. Which isn't the case, not really. There's hints as what is possible though in the POV.

Basically a little view of the kind of shenanigans Aegon's descendants are a part of. other than that...can't say too much. Most of it would follow and explained in the sequel (a long while from now).

I know right! TBF you'd probably do the world a favour by getting rid of Weirwood trees...apparently they're quite bad re nature's growth around one of them.

*Daemon - *Rhaenyra

Loved it. I can't wait for the next chapter so I'm gonna time travel into the future.

I really do hope we get The Dance as well, just for the salt. It does feel like it's wrapping up, the last part could be considered an epilogue.

Thanks for the chapter. Aegon finally uncovers the truth of who is the real enemy or the one who´s been manipulating and causing tragedies in his family is mind blowing.

where did it imply he never came back

Awesome chapter. I’m assuming his grandchildren lived in an age where argon did not come back, and basically time travelled to save him at the risk of their lives?

Wonderful chapter as always! This story is so well thought out, I can’t imagine how much time you devote to creating it. Thank you for sharing your work 😊

Dude…were we even reading the same thing? Everyone has their own opinion - even wild ones, like this - but please be respectful.

Amazing chapter!! Loved the magic ritual and the snapshot at the future. Kinda feels like that wraps up the last major plot point tho, is the story wrapping up?

Mysteries yet to be uncovered it seems.

Honestly when he got the helmet and the way it was described am I the only one who pictured Dr Fates helmet from DC but in Valyrian steel colouring.

damn this chapter was awesome. so at some point in time, Aegon's descendants will gain the ability to influence past events like the three eyed ravens through some sort of astral projection, or subtler means of mental manipulation.

Another great chapter like always

Mind blowing

When the last POV happened I went absolutely nuts! What a hint for future things!!!

Wow! Any explanation for what’s happening at the end there?

Great chapter, I loved the use of time travel and all the hints of something to come. Its weird rooting for deforestation for once.

Big fan of your stories, thanks for writing. These last two chapters were trash! The main character acts like an idiot, it feels like you want to kill this story. Take a well deserved break and reload. Good luck!

Thanks for the chapter

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Daemon - Rhaenyra