Unloaded 10: Show of Shows & The Gun Show
Added 2020-02-29 18:07:53 +0000 UTCFor those of you who would like to download the audio:
https://podcast1z2.candrsenal.com/10-Unloaded-Show_of_Shows_and_The_Gun_Show.mp3
townncountryfl@gmail.com
Comments
A running Colt 1877.
C&Rsenal
2021-10-26 03:08:22 +0000 UTCWhat did Othias spend his money on at the Show of Shows? I've searched for a while and can't find a video. Thanks!
J.T. Rudolph
2021-10-22 04:38:25 +0000 UTCGood to find your niche!
C&Rsenal
2021-01-12 04:07:25 +0000 UTCI realize this is almost a year old podcast, so this comment probably won't ever be seen, but I just became a patron so I'm consuming your backlog of shows. I'm old enough to get called a boomer, but not old enough to be into western themes. I'm more the Dirty Harry generation. I grew up with police carrying revolvers, and Jerry Miculek kicking butt in the competition world. I've watched the revolver prices go from common market when I was young to worth dirt in the early 90s to a steady upward climb continuing today. The best thing for me right now is that nobody seems to remember how to repair a revolver anymore. Finding a local gunsmith that will touch a revolver is impossible in some areas of the country now. This has allowed me to buy quite a few "gunsmith specials" in the last few years at huge discounts. I've been doing my own repair work since it was still common to do so. I'm trying to use this period of forgotten knowledge to grow and improve my collection just the same as I took advantage of the price crash revolvers took in the 90s. I love watching the trends and taking advantage of them. Time has made my collection better than any other factor. I'm gonna have to start watching cowboy stuff now I guess.
JustOldJoe
2021-01-10 15:37:37 +0000 UTCSome guns yes. That does not mean that all old guns are worth thousands. And as the podcast pointed out the cowboy guns and older lever guns and revolvers are not holding value. Along with a host of other kinds of firearms that are standard gun show equipment. Unless something has actual historical value or a historical background I don't see the demand going up on your standard commercial firearms.
Travis Tremmel
2020-03-11 10:42:32 +0000 UTCmost people do that as they expect lowballers and a LOT of old guns are very rapidly rising in value
ShadowOfDeath24 .
2020-03-11 03:10:45 +0000 UTCGlad to hear!
C&Rsenal
2020-03-07 07:43:03 +0000 UTCBeing a bit of a hermit by nature, I find listening to these Unloaded segments a very comforting experience. Like inviting friends over for some conversation, without the pressure of thinking up witty rejoinders of my own. I've actually repeated a couple -- great stuff to pleasantly fill the ears while cleaning a gun or reloading ammo. Please find time to continue!
DaveJD
2020-03-06 01:10:16 +0000 UTCAs a 31 year old I have realized I can't even go to gun shows anymore. Any gun I have interest in I quickly look up what they actually go for in the real world and the prices some guys ask are insane. I love old guns. And especially ones shooting the none standard calibers. But I also understand how much these firearms are worth and that they will probably be worth less in the years to come and pay accordingly. It's easy enough to see a reasonable price to set for any gun you are trying to sell that their is no reason for the price disparity between the real world value and gun show nonsense.
Travis Tremmel
2020-03-04 16:30:46 +0000 UTCGreat podcast as usual. I think you've nailed the generation gap issue and the impact it has on values. I've seen this happen in the collector car community - pre-WW2 Model Ts and Model As were big money collectors items in the 80s and 90s, but aren't worth more than $10k these days. Pre-tri-five (55-57) Chevy cars fell into same doldrums. Muscle cars, which have been hot for 15-20 years are past peaking, with auction values falling off. In each case, the guys who grew up with those cars have gotten old and frail and is they've stopped going to shows and cashing out. the values of the cars have plummeted. 80s BMWs and Porsches and Japanese sports cars from the 90s are on the way up. The generation that grew up with them reaches the point in their lives that they can afford a novelty from their youth, so they buy in and drive values up. I think guns have the same pressure on values, but face more headwinds because they're of comparatively lower utility - a gun chambered in a cartridge that hasn't been produced since WW2 is a interesting lump of steel more than an actual functional item. As a 30 year old with an interest in old guns, I walk right by 100 year old Winchesters because it will be a struggle to shoot them. If I'm going to pay top dollar for something, I want to use it, and guns that are difficult to use and enjoy when they can't really be used (even sparingly). Maybe if I make it to financial comfort I'll collect guns (or cars) I'm interested in, but guns that I could never afford and don't appreciate the rarity of won't be what I'll be after.
Steven Faiello
2020-03-04 00:00:51 +0000 UTCI don't know what this means but it may have some use. I'm 69 so I guess that makes me a younger boomer. My youngest son is definitely a millennial and career Navy. Before he was deployed to Afghanistan in 2011-12 he avidly visited the gun shows (I usually supplied the capital) and was a budding collector of classic military and black powder weapons. After he came back from Afghanistan he stopped going to gun shows because he said they were boring after seeing combat. He still collects but only by buying/trading with buddies. Is that a generational thing or just unique to him?
Lynn Phillips
2020-03-03 21:14:29 +0000 UTCYa, it gets old when you're looking for shootable old guns and constantly have to fight the safe-queen mentality on one end and the "well the new one looks the same on the outside, so it is the same as the old one" on the other. I can't imagine what you guys go through trying to get sub-models and variations.
Mr. Lee
2020-03-03 15:16:11 +0000 UTCThe other issue is that a lot of apartment complexes don’t take too kindly to having combustibles like powder and primers in your apartment. If there was something like a maker space that I could join to learn how to reload and use the equipment that would be handy.
Chris Stochaj
2020-03-03 13:54:17 +0000 UTCYeah, though Ian and y’all have done a A LOT to rekindle the collector market among the younger generations. When I do meet other WWI/WWII collectors, they’re all either over 55 or under 30. Among the under-30s, they’re Forgotten Weapons watchers to a man, and I’ve noticed a growing number of C&Rsenal fans. Y’all really are doing important work, and the younger guys who don’t just shoot modern stuff really appreciate it. The big gap that I really see is between 30 and 55. I’m sure there are collectors there, but I’ve never actually met any. I agree with y’all that the cowboy guns just aren’t going to sustain their prices. When younger guys get into old guns, it’s pretty much milsurps only.
Jackson Darr
2020-03-03 09:10:43 +0000 UTCYeah, the same thing is actually happening in the Harley Davidson market here. Lots of used bikes rusting away with big prices because younger guys won't buy them.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:54:54 +0000 UTCI'll also say, when they do dig into cowboy era... modern movies and games tend to bias towards late 1890s and even post 1900 these days.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:54:08 +0000 UTCabsolutely agree
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:53:09 +0000 UTCI think that proves the point out though, that the common younger owner doesn't put as much stake in the old guns as previous generations. Also I've had fewer issues chasing WWI and WWII than anything else in terms of attitude. I think the cowboy love is the big difference. Without that same love, the old Winchester market doesn't make sense to anyone else.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:52:47 +0000 UTCWe'll do our best. Summary: Gen Z and Boomers communicate differently No generation after Boomers like cowboys as much as they do
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:48:53 +0000 UTCThe reloading issue is actually a very big one for historical gun appreciation. YT's terrible rule is actually doing a lot of damage there.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:47:58 +0000 UTCThe short answer is the younger generation likes experiencing their stories more than listening to them. It's video games. So while the old west guns are falling, more obscure designs long neglected have become popular. It's just what they know now.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:47:06 +0000 UTCOh man, the "beat 'em to the punch" game.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:44:53 +0000 UTCI highly suspect that goes to younger generations having less space to horde in. Guns take up less room and have more impact than uniforms.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:43:55 +0000 UTCrofl, you've had some of this pent up.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:42:53 +0000 UTCWe are HOPING for international, BUT two things: 1. We're sticking with centerfire, magazine fed 2. We're hoping to avoid loans. They tie down resources more than you'd think and create responsibilities beyond our own inventory.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:39:48 +0000 UTCActually, those are some pretty funny shirt ideas. I wonder if we could do a young/old version so each side could get in on it? I honestly wonder if the cowboy genre wouldn't make a big splash with Gen Z if they truly experienced it. The attitude towards freedom and personal strength are actually starting to re-emerge. I've certainly enjoyed re-listening to Have Gun Will Travel this week.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:38:43 +0000 UTCLong term the value certainly can only go up. The problem is people are trying to liquidate now more than ever, and I don't think we're going to see the necessary demand build inside of 5-10 years. I think, for a time anyway, there will be an over-supply.
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:36:21 +0000 UTCI can't seem to find it but we're trying to integrate it on our own anyway, we also have subscribestar to deliver to. We'll get it right eventually
C&Rsenal
2020-03-03 06:34:52 +0000 UTCThat was an interesting discussion. I am Gen-X (1970) and as mentioned in the talk, only had a passing interest in guns until recently (thanks to Forgotten Weapons). On the collecting front, I have seen a similar generation gap when it comes to old cars. Especially the old British cars I'm into. At nearly 50, I am usually the youngest attendee at club gatherings. My gun collection is very modest, consisting of a shotgun I somehow ended up with from my father and a Norinco MAK 90 AK I bought in 1993. I have some interest in collecting more when time and space allows. And as I find places to actually shoot them. These are interesting times...
Ian F
2020-03-02 22:06:58 +0000 UTCHey Othais, I think you need to hook Henry up w/ some boomer shooters in his area that will take him out shooting to show off their guns & expand his financially limited student horizons... :-)
Bruce Brodnax
2020-03-02 21:38:54 +0000 UTCPart of the "generational gap" you discussed wrt the admiration of Old West type firearms is that boomers & Xers grew up on non-cable tv, w/ tons of ads and summer reruns. So they saw TONS of recycled old cowboy movies. Yers & Millennials otoh, grew up on frickin' (un)reality cable tv shows and literally *won't* watch a movie that's more than a few months old [DAMHIK...] So unless there's rash of remakes that are as popular as the True Grit redo that came a couple years back, there's no way on this Earth they're ever going to come around on finding those guns interesting or desirable. None of them read books any more, so Zane Grey ain't going to help move those old guns either. I was never much into the OW guns, & never got excited by the whole fancy dress gun matches [CAS & SASS], but I at least enjoy the history of them and can understand why the originals have such high values. OTOH, modern repops should generally be even cheaper than they are, since all the metallurgy is known & modern production methods can churn them out cheaply.
Bruce Brodnax
2020-03-02 21:15:08 +0000 UTCIt's a shame YouTube is against reloading videos (IIRC), as entry level handgun cartridge reloading isn't all that difficult or expensive (progressive presses are really great, but single stage is adequate and cheap and can be setup in a small apartment). Revolver cartridges especially, as OAL doesn't matter nearly as much.
Comrade Crozier
2020-03-02 19:59:40 +0000 UTCThing is Boomers were steeped in cowboy movies and guns in the womb. You're talking generations of pervasive western mythos - from great grandparents who might've seen the last days of the old west and carried those guns to parents who'd watched cowboy movies all their lives. The nostalgia is deeper than just childhood entertainment, so the prices are accordingly higher - that gun is a link to cherished people and places and experiences from long ago. I'm a millenial, so to me that 3k Colt SAA is just Cool Movie Gun #70, current price: higher than every other gun on my list by far, so it goes to the back of the list. There's no deeper emotional connection and association there.
Comrade Crozier
2020-03-02 18:48:07 +0000 UTCSome guy's have class, some are just crass. :P
Planescaped
2020-03-02 00:43:50 +0000 UTCI'm a late Millenial (26), and I haven't experienced too much of the Boomer generation gap problem. Maybe this is because I go to shops and not shows (though I'll be going to my second show ever in two weeks). It might also be because I specifically look for shops with milsurps, and I can talk the old guys' language on that stuff. Maybe the show will feel different. I actually get the most pushback from some friends my age and younger who wonder why I collect WWI-era guns (the answer is that it's Othais' fault) instead of kitting out an AR, worshipping Glock or H&K, and buying 9MM and 5.56 by the truckload. Then again, they usually like getting the chance to shoot my 'Fud guns' when we go to the range.
Jackson Darr
2020-03-02 00:14:11 +0000 UTCYeah. A lot of the WWI-era .32s can be had on Gunbroker for $250-$500, and often at the lower end of that range. Buying them helps me feed the collecting beast without breaking the bank.
Jackson Darr
2020-03-02 00:06:07 +0000 UTCI'm a boomer and I found this discussion interesting and enlightening. It's also the only "Unloaded" I've been able to sit all the way through. More like this please
Red Marley
2020-03-01 23:53:25 +0000 UTCI'm a millennial (90's), I think all the old lever actions and cowboy guns are pretty neat in terms of mechanics but the utility aspect isn't there for what the cost of the gun is since I really don't want to risk damage to something that's expensive to purchase in the first place, and if it fires an uncommon cartridge then fabricating ammunition myself or purchasing it is a massive hurdle to overcome. If I was going to buy a historical gun, in all honesty, I'd be interested i one or multiples of the .32 ACP pistols Othias and Mae have covered. simply because even for simple blowback guns they've got a variety of designs and because a lot of them were either consumer-grade or cranked out in the hundreds of thousands prices aren't horrible. Plus you can still buy the ammo for it since it's a common cartridge.
Chris Stochaj
2020-03-01 23:09:01 +0000 UTCI
Paul K
2020-03-01 19:09:44 +0000 UTCI think the comparison to Gen 1 Glocks or early-spec AR's is apt: if you have no interest in the tool's history, it's value becomes entirely about utility, and NOBODY goes down the rabbit hole of forming brass for something like a .40-82 Winchester High Wall out of a sense of utility. Indeed, unless you have an interest in the specifics of stone axes and arrowheads, we now have much better tools to spend your time on. The AR-15 is the new 1873 lever gun; the .338 Lapua is the new Sharps; and the Glock is the new Peacemaker. The degree to which people care about history also seems to be degrading: EXAMPLE: I (born in 1971 and not terribly adept with computers) joked to a Gen Z'er that if I could buy a steam-powered cell phone, I would. This person then asked me if "Steam" was the name of an app or OS for Apple or Android (if anything makes you want to shut yourself off from the younger folks, it's stuff like that). I think the "culture police" have also beat up on the Civil War and Old West era to the point that it has become nothing but a time of unenlightened racism in the minds of many younger folks, so an interest in the guns of that time might first be reached from an interest in the development of guns, not in the period from which they came. Another thought: Sam Mendes dedicated the movie 1917 to his grandfather "who told us the stories". America is now 3-4 or more generations away from a heavy cultural reliance on firearms and those who have even heard the stories are dwindling. Truthfully, I couldn't tell you what tends to fire the imagination of today's 20-somethings. Damn. . .this thread has got me feeling like Chingachgook. :(
Erik
2020-03-01 18:05:03 +0000 UTCCorrect, as did almost all Central and South American countries.
Charles Adams
2020-03-01 13:38:43 +0000 UTCThe Antique Arms Show is here in Vegas and the attitude is rampant. I got several hostile responses to inquiries about displayed guns and that was on the more military arms as I really have no interest in old west lever guns and cowboy revolvers. The only way I would get any kind of positive response is to tell my buddy with me facts about a particular rifle in a slightly louder voice so the guy could hear me. Also, $20k for a "Prototype No4 .22cal" that you won't let me pick up cause I'll probably see that it's actually a No7 cadet rifle worth closer to $800. I'll pass.
Matt Bakken
2020-03-01 09:21:04 +0000 UTCI’m a young looking millennial, and my experience at Gun Shows since about 2008 has always been poor- I think the same can be said for the militaria shows I have been to as well. I noticed I would get stonewalled from making a purchase by people who assumed I didn’t have the cash on hand to make a purchase. The negativity I experienced was enough to drive me away from any of these shows for the foreseeable future. Interestingly enough, though WW2 firearms have maintained their velocity in regards to pricing, I was floored with the massive drop in price for WWII uniforms/equipment from their “peak” in 2008.
Paul K
2020-03-01 04:58:58 +0000 UTCInteresting discussion. I am early 30's, "Oregon Trail Generation", near Phoenix and I see a lot of the same things at gun shows here, that's part of why I only go to one anymore. In my experience, I have had just as much negative reception from older and younger crowds because I collect guns for their design and function. I mostly collect J.M. Browning designs. My wide but specific interest generates ire and I suspect it comes from an encampment of the reasons people collect what they do. Say I'm looking for a Winchester 1885, I want the original design in a caliber I can reasonably reload for but I'm not willing to pay $3-5k. The younger guys don't get why I don't just get a marlin guide gun, and the older guys think it's disloyal to favor an uberti over a winchester reproduction. Handguns are even worse. Want a pre-a1 1911? why would you unless you're a ww1 collector or why bother when you could get a colt 2011. Are you a fan of the early High Power? That's just unAmerican. And how dare anyone collect the Colt 1900-to-1911 evolution without thinking the 1911a1 is the best design ever, and that's before mentioning I like the 38acp. I'm on a rant, I could keep going but I should stop.
Mr. Lee
2020-03-01 03:12:38 +0000 UTCOh yea, I have a question on your shotgun series, is it going to focus only old American sporting shotguns, or are you going to cover old international sporting shotguns as well? If you are going to cover old international sporting shotguns, I have a pretty nice looking Japanese commercial made Murata shotgun I could loan. (technically I have one of the Type 16 rifles that were converted to a sporting shotgun too, but that's missing the bolt)
SpaceCowboyfromNJ
2020-03-01 03:07:34 +0000 UTCAs a fully certified boomer, it pains me that so many of my generation wall them selves off to younger generations. I've had the good fortune to be the token old fart surrounded by 20 and 30-somethings in the last years of my working life, so my perspective is radically different from the standard boomers I run into at shows. On the subject of cowboy guns, I was fully immersed in the TV westerns of the 50s and 60s, and while I can appreciate a nice 1873 SAA, I've come to view it as a Blackhawk with inferior metalurgy. Finally, I think there may be a t-shirt burried in this subject. Imagine Henry walking a show wearing a t-shirt that says "Yes, I know what DWM stands for", or "Rymes with Errand".
Alden Skinner
2020-03-01 01:32:39 +0000 UTCPersonally I don't think there will be so much of a market crash on those old west guns, but rather there will be market stagnation. Sure most of the younger generations don't have as much interest in old west guns, but I'd bet like US military firearms a good junk of collectors would buy one if they were cheep enough just because they are still so iconic. Right now the younger generation hasn't yet built up their wealth to the point that that the current prices those old west guns go for, would feel like a reasonable purchase, As the younger generations age they will eventually reach that point of having enough wealth and begin making such purchases (though like machine guns on an individual level probably not in such quantities as the prior generations) So what I think will happen is the older generations will continue to cycle those firearms around at the current prices and as the old guys die off new older guys slowly step in to take their spot. Demand will decrease lowering their value but inflation will hide that under the appearance of steady physical price . So 30 years from now that rifle is still going to be priced at $3000 dollars, however $3000 30 years from now is not going to be worth what it would be to us today.
SpaceCowboyfromNJ
2020-03-01 01:14:09 +0000 UTCI'm pretty sure Patreon has a way to turn these into audio-only podcasts for you and restrict them to a certain donation level. Forgotten Ian does it - Patreon emailed me a link to an RSS feed for audio versions of his videos, but nothing ever appears because I don't fork over at a high enough level.
David Brewer
2020-02-29 21:10:24 +0000 UTCMexican law long forbade military calibers, so .38 Super was a popular pistol clambering.
Robin Roberts
2020-02-29 21:01:55 +0000 UTC$3000 and I'd be looking for a Luxembourg FN49....
Robin Roberts
2020-02-29 20:36:50 +0000 UTCYeah, there is definitely some generational short-hand in play that isn't 100%. The other issue is a complete difference in communications thanks to the internet/social media generation. By example: the method of data exchange has changed a lot and I think it makes the spontaneous "lectures" harder for younger generations, as they expect to be provided a link or other resource to consume at a later date. The driving issue here was the depreciation of the cowboy gun market and how a lot of my older friends are struggling to understand what is happening.
C&Rsenal
2020-02-29 20:30:21 +0000 UTCI listened to the first 40 minutes or so, just to point out I may have missed something. I am a boomer, but Othais knows where I’m coming from. I’m here to tell you that there is nothing new in anything you guys have described. 35 years ago, when I started going to gun shows, it was the same thing. The old guys would’t give me or my friends the time of day. I grew up in an area with a lot of collector gun shows. One of the things I notice is the speakers here were all kind of shell-shocked by the SoS experience. If you want to see a lot of Volcanics and Henrys in a show, go to the Baltimore Show. Anyway, the dealers at these kind of shows have always been a mixed lot, with a lot of pains in the ass and a few nice ones. And the prices have always been ridiculous. And Winchesters and Colts were a huge thing then, with the same lack of desire to sell except inside the seller’s circle. The cowboy ethos stretches back several generations beyond the boomers, which is why those guns have held up in value for so long. That may well be coming to an end now, but it was a multi-generational run. It wasn’t boomers who owned everything 30 years ago. There was some wwii generation, but most were what is now called the silent generation. We didn’t have names for them, because we didn’t feel put upon by one particular group as seems to be popular nowadays. We just called them grouchy old bastards. They are the primary reason I rarely go to gun shows, and have rarely done so for most of this century. It is possible to ignore the and have fun with your collecting.
John Klear
2020-02-29 19:59:57 +0000 UTC
