UWM Interview

I'll have another art post soon about animating cars, but in the meantime here's a recent interview I did for UWM student Stavros Hatzopoulos.

Q: What got you to start pursuing animation as a career?

A: I've always loved animation. I drew compulsively as a kid and by about age six I was trying to learn how cartoons were made. I would still-frame through tapes on our VCR, and borrow how-to books from the library. A big thing for me was the documentary Bugs Bunny Superstar, I watched that so many times. Everybody in my family and at school knew me as 'the kid who draws cartoons', so it was no surprise when it started to look like it might be my career path. My dad worried it might be a hard field to make a living in, but was ultimately supportive.

Q: Describe your experience working on your first big creative project, and what you’d consider to be your big break. 

A: I downloaded Flash and started making cartoons in high school, but I guess to the outside world, my first big thing was a series of shorts I did during college called Fester Fish. I was still figuring out a workflow through trial and error. But that was the first time I had a sense of "wow I'm really making a proper cartoon the right way and it's kind of working." Although I was still so self-doubting that after I finished the first one, I almost didn't post it online! Anyway I did, and a day or two later I was shocked to find it had gotten shared by Jerry Beck on the animation news blog Cartoon Brew. Jerry went on to share each short in the series, and that attention led to some small job offers, which then led to a bigger one - being hired by Scout Raskin and Mike Hollingsworth to come work in LA on a show called Triptank. It was both thrilling and scary, but things snowballed and I ended up staying for ten years.

Q: What would you say it’s like working in the animation pipeline, freelance or full-time? Describe the usual work environment, day-to-day work, etc.

A: The day-to-day work varies based on your job. As a storyboarder or animator on an adult show, you're working on scenes all day, and getting feedback from the director. As the director, you're thumbnailing scenes, assigning and reviewing them, working with the supervising director and editor to put the episode together, and hitting the showrunner's notes. Then as the supervising director, the whole show rests on your shoulders, but you're also the rope in the tug-of-war between the showrunner's creative goals and the line producer's goal of not spending any money. That position can be a bit of a thankless headache, so after supervising for a little while I stepped back down to just directing episodes.

The place I worked in-person the longest was ShadowMachine (on Bojack Horseman, Tuca & Bertie, Triptank and other projects). A bunch of us were there together for years, and it started to feel like a second home. We were always laughing and playing jokes on each other, and we'd get together outside of work all the time too. I still consider the people from those crews some of my best friends even though we've all spread out. Since the pandemic, most of my jobs have been work-from-home, which is a very different vibe. It can almost feel like freelancing even when you're on a show full-time. I do appreciate the greater flexibility though.

Q: What is your own creative process? Is it usually linear or is there more to it? 

A: With Sublo and Tangy Mustard, it has gotten pretty linear. I start by gathering my ideas and building some of them into scripts. I write an entire season at once. Then we record it all, which can overlap with character design and thumbnails. I board a few episodes and then start focusing on them individually. I draw backgrounds, then animation, then the music, exports and final editing. Sometimes I board a later episode and then jump back to the current one, to maintain a buffer. I actually enjoy the factory-like organizational aspect, but it's tricky switching from the macro "producer" view of the whole season to the "artist" view of drawing a specific scene.

Q: What does an animator’s network usually look like? Additionally, what’s your advice to artists on how to grow their network and get their work out to people?

A: My network in LA was almost all animation people, apart from a few friends' partners. Living back in Toronto again, my network is more varied. Along with animators, my friends are teachers, musicians, live-action filmmakers, firefighters, chefs, lawyers... Less of a bubble, but I don't get to really geek out about cartoons with friends as much.

As for growing your network and putting your work out there, I'm not the best person to ask but I post on a few social media platforms and sort of maintain a website. You want to make it easy for people to find and contact you. It sounds gross but I've found 'building your brand' is kind of important-- basically just giving a sense of the person behind the art. Sometimes I post about other works I'm inspired by, or animation industry trends, or share random thoughts about making art. I post about movies I've seen. I post about the ongoing genocide in Gaza, climate change and other real world concerns that loom large in my mind. You don't have to do this exact stuff, it depends on who you are and what you're comfortable sharing. It's interesting how the lines blur between an artist and their work, although it does take away some of the mystique (and privacy). It's a trade-off for sure, but my stuff is so niche I don't feel like I can afford to be mysterious and aloof.

Q: Have you had any other creative ventures in your career besides animation (and cool mashups)?

A: Haha so you know about the mashups... Well I do play a lot of music. Sometimes jamming with friends, but more often just writing and recording on my own. I'm planning a proper release of some of it, but it's not my highest priority, and the more I think about how to present it to an audience, the more it feels like work. I've also been doing more traditional art lately, to get away from screens. I paint watercolours, make collages and recently I'm doing life drawing again (my friend from college Lauri Lewis runs a great bi-weekly session). I'm working on some art zines too, but like the music release it's very much a second-tier side project, so progress has been slow. It's nice to have a few things to hop between, I'm never bored. The downside is I always feel like I'm neglecting something.

Q: Where do you find inspiration for your work? List some influences, what you look to, etc.

A: I watch a lot of movies. Some of my favourite directors are Mike Leigh, Lukas Moodysson, Hirokazu Kore-eda, Ken Loach, Juzo Itami, Masaaki Yuasa and Mamoru Oshii. I don't watch much TV but I was obsessed with the original UK version of The Office and really early Trailer Park Boys. A couple of more recent shows I like are Stath Lets Flats and People Just Do Nothing.

At this point I'm very particular about animation, but some perennial favourites are The Big Snit, Home Movies, Crapston Villas, Liu Jian's films, Crayon Shin-chan and Windy Tales. Within the contemporary indie scene I admire Jonni Peppers, Umami, Sophie Koko Gate, Smallbu and Victoria Vincent.

I like thinking about how art theory from other mediums could apply to animation. Years ago I read Leonard Koren's book on wabi-sabi art philosophy, and it really aligned with my own values - embracing imperfection, impermanence, asymmetry, spontaneity, etc. Simon Reynolds' post-punk history Rip It Up and Start Again had some great food for thought. So did Haruki Murakami's book Absolutely On Music, and the Walter Murch book The Conversations. I really like the writing of Aaron Cometbus.

 Ultimately real life is the biggest inspiration. A lot of Sublo and Tangy Mustard comes from sifting through memories and feelings, and distorting them... I know that sounds pretentious for a goofy comedy show, haha. I like going for long walks alone around Toronto. It gives my brain a chance to untangle itself, like defragging a computer.

Q: In the latter decade you’ve spent in and out of the industry, what would you say has changed or stayed the same?

A: I guess the way studios make shows is basically the same, but the difference is they barely make any now. Indie productions are on the rise but the smaller budgets mean they tend to be very project-focused. Everything goes towards finishing a pilot or whatever at any cost, rather than building any infrastructure so it's sustainable. Maybe Glitch is an exception, although they've also gotten so big I'm not sure how useful it is to keep calling them indie. Maybe the distinction I'm thinking of there is more like 'corporate vs DIY.' It's hard to make a living working on indie stuff, but that seems like where a lot of things are going. I don't really foresee the traditional TV industry coming back as strong as it was before.

Q: Anything you wish you had known going into your career?

A: Hmm, maybe just that it's okay to ask for help. Working on Bojack, my friend Mike Hollingsworth would always say "share your problems up." Then you're not panicking in isolation, and your bosses don't get a nasty surprise when it's deadline time and you haven't finished your scene. Also, you don't have to say yes to everything. There's a fear that if you say no, you'll never get asked to do anything again, but you will. Plus the awkward moment of turning something down is preferable to spending months on the wrong thing.

Q: How do you deal with times of burnout?

A: If it's a personal project, simply put it down for a while and give yourself a rest from it. For industry jobs it's harder obviously. I try to save up money so I can take time off between jobs if I need a break. The whole decade I was in LA I lived in a crummy area my friends made fun of, but the rent was cheap. I never had a car and I could walk to work in half an hour, which is good for LA. I'm trying to avoid burnout by structuring my career around my life rather than the other way around (which of course is a perspective and a luxury I didn't have in the beginning, and I did get more burnt out then). Actually last year I did get pretty messed up from one intense job.

Q: In a time of uncertainty with the future of animation, what’s the most important thing you can tell an up-and-coming artist?

A: Probably have a day job/backup plan. Not just "in case it doesn't work out" but even if it does. The industry is in a deep slump, and maintaining full-time employment with just animation is tough right now. If you have to go back to non-animation work it doesn't mean you're a failure.

In terms of personal work: Make what you want to make, not what you think others want to see. People might not initially be interested, but over time even crude low-concept mush like Sublo and Tangy Mustard can build up a cult following! I think sometimes artists try to look at their careers from the outside, second-guessing how others will receive their work and what they "should" make, but I can never get much done that way. Things flow easier when I just do what I'm actually excited about at the moment.

Also the more personal work you put out, the more you can shape your industry career. It shows employers your tastes and skills, so you're not just an anonymous butt to drop into any random position. A lot of job offers have sprung from my indie work. "We thought of you because you did ____" or "we know you like doing ____."

Of course, a bunch of jobs have also come from friends, so I guess that's another thing: be good to work with, friendly and open, whether it seems important for your career or not. I'm always chatty with the PAs and interns on every show, not because "someday they might be your boss" but just because I like to be friends with everybody. But also a few years later, some of them actually have been my bosses.